So you are frustrated because you can't force people to conform to your opinion?
People are entitled to their opinion.
You can outline and explain your viewpoint all that you want. You can try to convince them. But when has it been acceptable to force them to your POV?
I suggest you make a separate thread if you want to discuss possibilities/deck brewing with some cards. I am pretty sure there is a subforum for that.
No, I'm frustrated because people can't engage in a decent discussion. I'd love to be proven wrong, but... I don't think I can find that debate here. I want to be able to lay out several points as to why I think these are good cards, and then for someone to rebut in a similarly coherent fashion.
Instead, I get my entire point offhandedly dismissed as if irrelevant, and then people go on saying the same thing as before, without even listening.
I assure you, the last thing I want is to "force" people to my point of view. I don't learn anything that way, you know?
EDIT: Anyway, I'm done here for now. This has long lost any real constructive point here, and I don't want to waste anyone's time.
I have read some people in this thread say they are unhappy these lands are rares because they'll be needed in Standard yet harder to acquire than uncommons; and I have seen other people say they will be unhappy to open them because they are junk à la the Laces. Both can't be right.
Most likely you will see them reach a price equilibrium over the next couple months where they sell for more than the average rare in the set (maybe even better than a few nominally strong rares that are struggling to find a place in Standard) but a couple dollars/euros less than the more-in-demand RtR shocklands.
Only I noticed that color combiataion of this duals are strange?
We have 2 allied and 3 enemy color combinations among those 5 lands. That is... strange.
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This is not how bans/unbans work. Its always the enabler that gets the ban, not the card that is being abused. If you would have Yawgmoths will + whatever cards - it would be Yawgs that would be banned. If you would have Stoneforge and batterskull - it would be stone who would be banned and that is exactly how it works. Furthermore, banning a card in order to unban a different card is a thought process that was and wont be never applied in practical means.
I know this is a bit spiteful, but the reactions here almost make me wish Wizards had put these lands in the mythic slot instead, just to teach everyone a lesson.
guy A: Hey, do you remember the issue with domestication in m14?
guy B: Yeah, a lot of people raged, despite our intentions for limited. What of it?
guy A: Well, its about the next cycle of duals.
guy B: The uncommon scry lands you mean?
guy A: I booted up MSE one last time before sending them off to the printers.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
Or the Nimbus Maze cycle. Now's the perfect time to print those lands. Not these crappy Scry lands.
Did you even read the article? Can't Print Nimbus Maze cycle because they work too well with the Shock Lands. The point is for the lands to not work with the Shock Lands. Stop comparing them to lands we were never going to get.
And there's the Modern crowd (including me) who expected a Horizon Canopy, River of Tears, Nimbus Maze, or Grove of the Burnwillows cycle and are disappointed because we thought that these lands would be playable in Modern. Theros is the first set designed after Modern was created, so we thought that they would try and print stuff that is playable in Modern.
River of Tears Cycle with either 10 or 20 lands would have made me EXPLODE with happiness.
Interesting to see they went with just 5 color pairs and not just enemy or allied. Especially fun to see UW and GW are missing which where so far the obvious colors for best control list and best aggro list. They can still manage with just 4 duals but these combinations that have access to 8 duals are certainly more interesting now.
Not the best lands so if you can you want to avoid playing them but scry 1 is not so bad either.. I like them, extra fixing if needed but definately at a cost.
It is funny to see how divided these lands are. I saw some comments say these will be bonkers good and some say it was the worst thing they could ever print.
They aren't horrible, scry 1 is relevant in slower decks to smooth draws.
They aren't great, scry 1 doesn't guarantee you always draw good if both the scryed card and the other card below it are not helpful.
I don't think it will be more than 4-6 per, well maybe azorius raising higher than that since that is one of the decks that can afford to run 4. Overall, considering the hype I was kind of let down by ETB tapped lands, even with scry.
As for the colors, they are the gate crash land cycle because RTR's lands had more time last season so development switched it for this one.
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Standard:
Jeskai Black
Modern:
Jund
Legacy:
Esper Stoneblade
EDH:
5 color slivers
Arcum Daggson
Sharuum The Hedgemon
Mishra...Shenanigans?
I really do hope this is a continuation of cutting back on the ridiculous last couple of years in standard. Infect.dec to titans to delver/snapcaster to resto angel/thragtusk to endless sphinx's rev decks. It's been a bit tiring to watch with the checks and shocks turning everything into 24 non-basics goodstuff.dec
Heck, if we get any more cards like flamespeaker adept this might end up being a really effective cycle within block. People liked kiln fiend.
Also an uncommon/common 20 land river of tears cycle needs to happen asap. Preferably in a wedge block. Because it'd be amazing.
In a way I'm kind of glad to see so many people talking about how bad they think these are. I know high-price cards come with the territory for competitive-level play, but it can get really annoying to have each new block come up and see some crazy new type of land introduced that instantly shoots up to $30 to $40 (I'm looking at you Zendikar fetchlands). That price may be justified for tournament-level players buying pieces they need for their decks, but if I just want to play casually, there's basically no chance to get those lands other than getting lucky and finding one in the rare spot of my booster. What's the point of having super powerful, tournament quality lands if I can't actually have said super powerful lands?
Chimneyer Imp
4B
Creature - Imp
Flying
When Chimney Imp dies, target opponent puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.
When Chimney Imp enters the battlefield, Scry 1.
Oh boy, have people been spoiled by buddylands + shocks in Standard. Uncommon multicolored lands hasn't been done besides RTR and Alara (not counting Vivis, because as far as I know, those were a mistake) since the days of Coastal Tower, and these were both multicolored blocks. A regular old, monocolored set deserves rare duals, and I rather like these. I always hated having to run gates in my aggro deck, and these are a strict and quite significant upgrade.
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The awesome-est MTG webcomic out there. Go check it out!
Chimneyer Imp
4B
Creature - Imp
Flying
When Chimney Imp dies, target opponent puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.
When Chimney Imp enters the battlefield, Scry 1.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Melek, Izzet Paragon Oona, Queen of the Fae Bruna, Light of Alabaster Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Rhys the Redeemed Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord Sen Triplets The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
We've already explained that Savage Lands and Guildgates had to be placed in those rarities because of Limited. Multicolor puts a lot of stress on Limited, especially tricolor. They had to bend some things in order to make it easy to play those colors.
The Tri-lands are especially bound to this. As Mark Rosewater says, if your theme isn't in common, it's not your theme. Similarly, if casual players can't play it, then what's the point? In order to get casual players (Who frequently don't have large quantities of rares) the ability to play lots of three color decks, they printed aggressive duals.
Think of Theros as the opposite of that theory. They gave us some time to play with crazy mana bases. Checklands + Shock lands was fun, but it's very easy to get into 3 color good stuff range. Wizards is now trying to punish three color decks to focus more on two color decks. That means worse duals.
We've already explained that Savage Lands and Guildgates had to be placed in those rarities because of Limited. Multicolor puts a lot of stress on Limited, especially tricolor. They had to bend some things in order to make it easy to play those colors.
The Tri-lands are especially bound to this. As Mark Rosewater says, if your theme isn't in common, it's not your theme. Similarly, if casual players can't play it, then what's the point? In order to get casual players (Who frequently don't have large quantities of rares) the ability to play lots of three color decks, they printed aggressive duals.
Think of Theros as the opposite of that theory. They gave us some time to play with crazy mana bases. Checklands + Shock lands was fun, but it's very easy to get into 3 color good stuff range. Wizards is now trying to punish three color decks to focus more on two color decks. That means worse duals.
So why not just print the duals at uncommon and not pollute the rare slots with garbage lands, and instead dump more critters or whatever in that slot so as not to gimp limited pack-cracking?
Mmm, love the aggro player tears in this thread! Very happy to see dual lands that will promote a slower meta and give better consistency to decks that can afford to have lands come in tapped. I approve of these dual lands and any other card that makes mindless aggro decks worse.
Scry lands are great. Makes it much easier to keep those borderline mulligan hands since scry lets you dig into what you need (like that third land in a two land hand.) Seem good with Flamespeaker Adept too, and any other cards with effects that proc on scry (I'd be shocked if flamespeaker was the only one.)
As for people complaining about the cost...did you honestly expect them to be uncommon when every dual land in the last however many years (besides gates, and there was a reason for that) has been rare? Get over it...being so shocked about it is just naive. Wizards likes selling packs; rare dual lands help with that. Get used to it.
Seems that someone got angry last season with Voice, Boros Reckoner, Boros Charm and Loxodon Smiter, and even the new 3/3 Lion. But hey, there's no need to be upset, midrange-aggro decks like mainly Naya and some Jund builds can use this in their favor and still drop 3 and 4 mana threats like Domri, Xenagos and the aforementioned creatures that the Control VIP Club can't still deal with without recurring to D-Sphere. And slowing 2-color aggro? Not a chance. Did you play ALA-M10-ZEN Standard when the only fixing where checks? (okay, fetches too, but they can't tap for 2 different colors).
No, I'm frustrated because people can't engage in a decent discussion. I'd love to be proven wrong, but... I don't think I can find that debate here. I want to be able to lay out several points as to why I think these are good cards, and then for someone to rebut in a similarly coherent fashion.
Instead, I get my entire point offhandedly dismissed as if irrelevant, and then people go on saying the same thing as before, without even listening.
I assure you, the last thing I want is to "force" people to my point of view. I don't learn anything that way, you know?
EDIT: Anyway, I'm done here for now. This has long lost any real constructive point here, and I don't want to waste anyone's time.
WotC, please hire me already.
Or the Nimbus Maze cycle. Now's the perfect time to print those lands. Not these crappy Scry lands.
Most likely you will see them reach a price equilibrium over the next couple months where they sell for more than the average rare in the set (maybe even better than a few nominally strong rares that are struggling to find a place in Standard) but a couple dollars/euros less than the more-in-demand RtR shocklands.
We have 2 allied and 3 enemy color combinations among those 5 lands. That is... strange.
Scry 3 would be RIDICULOUS. Scry to would be quite powerful.
guy A: Hey, do you remember the issue with domestication in m14?
guy B: Yeah, a lot of people raged, despite our intentions for limited. What of it?
guy A: Well, its about the next cycle of duals.
guy B: The uncommon scry lands you mean?
guy A: I booted up MSE one last time before sending them off to the printers.
Did you even read the article? Can't Print Nimbus Maze cycle because they work too well with the Shock Lands. The point is for the lands to not work with the Shock Lands. Stop comparing them to lands we were never going to get.
I may have to see what kind of midrange options are available to me first.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
River of Tears Cycle with either 10 or 20 lands would have made me EXPLODE with happiness.
Not the best lands so if you can you want to avoid playing them but scry 1 is not so bad either.. I like them, extra fixing if needed but definately at a cost.
They aren't horrible, scry 1 is relevant in slower decks to smooth draws.
They aren't great, scry 1 doesn't guarantee you always draw good if both the scryed card and the other card below it are not helpful.
I don't think it will be more than 4-6 per, well maybe azorius raising higher than that since that is one of the decks that can afford to run 4. Overall, considering the hype I was kind of let down by ETB tapped lands, even with scry.
As for the colors, they are the gate crash land cycle because RTR's lands had more time last season so development switched it for this one.
Jeskai Black
Modern:
Jund
Legacy:
Esper Stoneblade
EDH:
5 color slivers
Arcum Daggson
Sharuum The Hedgemon
Mishra...Shenanigans?
Heck, if we get any more cards like flamespeaker adept this might end up being a really effective cycle within block. People liked kiln fiend.
Also an uncommon/common 20 land river of tears cycle needs to happen asap. Preferably in a wedge block. Because it'd be amazing.
That seems really bad. Uncommon, I could live with.
Rare is just stupid.
Also, it's interesting to note that they are releasing them in the same groups as the shock lands but in the opposite order.
Savage Lands. Nuff said.
4B
Creature - Imp
Flying
When Chimney Imp dies, target opponent puts a card from his or her hand on top of his or her library.
When Chimney Imp enters the battlefield, Scry 1.
1/2
Rare
The awesome-est MTG webcomic out there. Go check it out!
That is CLEARLY a Mythic
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Refuge cycle from Zendikar.
We've already explained that Savage Lands and Guildgates had to be placed in those rarities because of Limited. Multicolor puts a lot of stress on Limited, especially tricolor. They had to bend some things in order to make it easy to play those colors.
The Tri-lands are especially bound to this. As Mark Rosewater says, if your theme isn't in common, it's not your theme. Similarly, if casual players can't play it, then what's the point? In order to get casual players (Who frequently don't have large quantities of rares) the ability to play lots of three color decks, they printed aggressive duals.
Think of Theros as the opposite of that theory. They gave us some time to play with crazy mana bases. Checklands + Shock lands was fun, but it's very easy to get into 3 color good stuff range. Wizards is now trying to punish three color decks to focus more on two color decks. That means worse duals.
So why not just print the duals at uncommon and not pollute the rare slots with garbage lands, and instead dump more critters or whatever in that slot so as not to gimp limited pack-cracking?
Seems that someone got angry last season with Voice, Boros Reckoner, Boros Charm and Loxodon Smiter, and even the new 3/3 Lion. But hey, there's no need to be upset, midrange-aggro decks like mainly Naya and some Jund builds can use this in their favor and still drop 3 and 4 mana threats like Domri, Xenagos and the aforementioned creatures that the Control VIP Club can't still deal with without recurring to D-Sphere. And slowing 2-color aggro? Not a chance. Did you play ALA-M10-ZEN Standard when the only fixing where checks? (okay, fetches too, but they can't tap for 2 different colors).
I like these. People underestimate Scry.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
And no, we are NOT babies because we can tell the difference between pulling a shock land off a booster pack (fun) and pulling one of these (cry).
These are uncommons stealing a worthy rare slot from some other card.
On the up side, I can pass these up in draft, and these have just instantly guaranteed Theros packs will be cheap for the foreseable future.
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