I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
Apart from the mythic hydra, the spoiled cards haven't been that exciting. I really want to think that enchantments can be a major theme and not be lame, but I'm not sure if WoTC can pull it off. Don't fail us!
I just realized that Monstrosity isn't actually a keyword - it's an action word like Proliferate. It's formatted exactly the same as Trostani, Selesnya's Voice's activated ability.
This means we might get triggered Monstrosity - "When a creature you control dies, monstrosity 2" does sound a little weird though.
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
Why the hate for Polukranous? It's a 5/5 for 4 which is already decent. Power him out turn 3 with a Farseek or Mana Elf and you've got them on a serious clock. Next turn drop a land and you can Monsterous for 2, killing a couple X/1s or an X/2 and swinging in for 7. That's really not too shabby. Of course if you've got a better play to follow him up then hold off on Monsterous and you've still got a 5/5 beating down. And late game? You've got a ready mana sink to partially clear the board and swing for a ton.
I'm not saying it's an amazingly powerful card but it's certainly not terrible in standard.
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't *hate* Polukranos, or think he is "bad".
I just find him disappointing for a Legendary Mythic.
As others have said, this could be a nonlegendary Rare and not be overpowered.
Part of it is also disliking the Monstrosity mechanic based on what little we know.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Young Pyromancer into Anax and Cymede into Tajic, Blade of the Legion seems like a fun proggression for a post rotation token deck... We just need a few decent replacements for Gather the Townsfolk and Lingering Souls/ Midnight Haunting
That sounds pretty terrible playing a 2/1 with no abilities on turn 2. Would be a much better curve if you said Firefist Striker. Also if it didn't include a bad 4 drop like Tajic. I like your 3 drop example though.
I just find him disappointing for a Legendary Mythic.
As others have said, this could be a nonlegendary Rare and not be overpowered.
I guess I can't respond to that kind of argument because I've never believed in the "Mythics need to be X, Y, or Z" or that "Rarity = Power" (though often more powerful cards are made rare that is hardly a rule nor something to judge that card's performance on. Once it's on the field its rarity is meaningless). As for Legendary, that's a drawback on the card but only a modest one. It didn't need to be legendary sure but then same could be said for alot of legends.
Part of it is also disliking the Monstrosity mechanic based on what little we know.
I certainly don't have any love for the mechanic either but I also don't especially mind it. It's not likely going to become a major mechanic so I just shrug and consider how the few cards that have it will function.
That sounds pretty terrible playing a 2/1 with no abilities on turn 2. Would be a much better curve if you said Firefist Striker. Also if it didn't include a bad 4 drop like Tajic. I like your 3 drop example though.
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Would you rather he said "Goyf into Geist of Saint Traft into Falkenrath Aristocrat?"
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I guess I can't respond to that kind of argument because I've never believed in the "Mythics need to be X, Y, or Z" or that "Rarity = Power" (though often more powerful cards are made rare that is hardly a rule nor something to judge that card's performance on. Once it's on the field its rarity is meaningless). As for Legendary, that's a drawback on the card but only a modest one. It didn't need to be legendary sure but then same could be said for alot of legends.
I certainly don't have any love for the mechanic either but I also don't especially mind it either. It's not likely going to become a major mechanic so I just shrug and consider how the few cards that have it will function.
The entire point of mythics is price gouging.
And the mechanic likely won't be used at all in standard because it doesn't snap the game state in half over its knee or isn't power creeped to hell and back.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Ah~! I missed the top-down designs! Regardless of playability, those cards make me feel happy they exist. But still, here's my evaluation of each card:
Polukranos, World Eater: I've already talked about it in its thread, but I don't think this card is particularly great. There was a time where I would've been amazed Wizards printed a 4-mana 5/5 with an upside, but Deadbridge Goliath showed us these weren't that impressive. I do think it is better than Deadbridge Goliath, but not by much. It is also much worse than Olivia Voldaren when you think about it, but she is rotating, so who knows? I really think the amount of playable creatures with 1 or 2 toughness will decide how good it is in Standard, and I personally don't like it when my opponent's deck decides whether my cards are good or not...
I like Monstrosity, though. It's like a cleaner Level Up at instant-speed. It gives me hope that THS limited will be slower than average. In Draft, Polukranos is an insane bomb. Not quite the Kalonian Hydra, but not that far off.
Anax and Cymede: A couple of warrior rulers? That's amazingly badass! I think this card has a lot of potential in Standard, that body with those keywords can cause a lot of problems for a lot of decks. They also carry auras like champs. Just imagine sticking a Madcap Skills on them, your opponent better have an answer and quick! Their Heroic ability feels a little odd, though. Mostly because decks that run targeting spells don't usually play weenie/swarm strategies. Still, it will allow them to take out opposing Loxodon Smiters, and that's definitely something important.
In Draft, that Heroic ability is really insane, so is a 3-mana 3/2 vigilant first striker! Heroic should also be very interesting in Draft, as long as the auras are strong enough. I wouldn't go as far as saying they are better than Polukranos in limited, but I do think it's close.
Destructive Revelry: A nice Naturalize-with-a-plus! I prefer Sundering Growth, but that does require more building around. Anyway, it's an elegant design and should be a solid sideboard card.
In limited, it could be very strong (they didn't make it an uncommon for no reason.) But we still have to see what this enchantment theme is all about.
Ordeal of Purphoros: Is that a cycle I smell? Is Purphoros the name of the red god? Isn't it odd that it says "When you sacrifice Ordeal..." instead of "sacrifice Ordeal, it deals 3 damage..."? Well, I love this design! But you really need something able to dodge removal. I guess it's fine on a Witchstalker or Fiendslayer Paladin, but probably not enough.
In limited though, oh boy! If this is what the auras will look like in Theros, they will be a force to be reckoned with! This is extremely powerful and surprisingly cheap, it even acts as removal!
Satyr Hedonist: That's an interesting one. Once on the field, he becomes a red Dark Ritual. This is the sort of card I won't pretend to have an answer as to its power in constructed, but it definitely is interesting and worth keeping in mind.
In limited, I can't imagine going wrong with him in a R/G deck. Playing your bombs two turns is an offer you just can't refuse. It kinda surprises me that the card is common, but hey, I'm not complaining.
Cavalry Pegasus: A very cute card. It could get there if you have enough humans that need to get hits through. Right now, though, I wouldn't bet on this horse to make any splash in Standard.
Also, I love this kind of card in limited! This card is either useless or one of the best cards in your deck. Cards like this are what made Innistrad and Modern Masters drafts so amazing!
I do like how much of the Theros cards so far "have potential in/against the right deck" instead of the traditional "Wizards just printed a dumb overpowered card to get us to buy packs". This gives me hope that Theros Standard will be less about good stuff decks (looking at you, Jund) and more about synergistic and elegant ones. I also like every single one of these cards in limited.
I just realized that Monstrosity isn't actually a keyword - it's an action word like Proliferate. It's formatted exactly the same as Trostani, Selesnya's Voice's activated ability.
This means we might get triggered Monstrosity - "When a creature you control dies, monstrosity 2" does sound a little weird though.
I think the formatting would be more like "Monstrosity - When another creature you control dies, this creature becomes monstrous."
Would you rather he said "Goyf into Geist of Saint Traft into Falkenrath Aristocrat?"
Well, considering none will be in Standard, no. But using Young Pyromancer followed by a creature that triggers mostly off of auras (R/W doesn't have good spells that target their own creatures), followed by a creature that requires other creatures in play to be at all worthwhile (if he ever is).
I would have been much happier if he said Firefist Striker>Boros Hero>almost any 4 drop that is not Tajic.
As far as the new cards: Polukranos, the World Eater: This is a 5/5 for 4. This is a 5/5 for 4 that kills things. This is a 5/5 for 4 that kills things and grows. This is a 5/5 for 4 that kills things and grows in mid-combat. I love this card. Anax and Cymede: This seems interesting in standard if auras are a thing. Satyr Hedonist: Sweet stuff. Not to mention, I love the flavor. Destructive Revelry: RG aggro called, it now has a Naturalize. Cavalry Pegasus: If humans are a thing, this might work. Ordeal of Purphoros: Sick in limited. I don't think this'll cut it in constructed though.
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This gives me hope that Theros Standard will be less about good stuff decks (looking at you, Jund) and more about synergistic and elegant ones.
I like the looks of things so far... and I'm really excited for Theros.
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EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
This gives me hope that Theros Standard will be less about good stuff decks (looking at you, Jund) and more about synergistic and elegant ones.
If anything, these previews point to Theros being filled with completely unplayable jank that Maro defends with "But top down design!!" It's going to be Jar of Eyeballs all over again.
If anything, these previews point to Theros being filled with completely unplayable jank that Maro defends with "But top down design!!" It's going to be Jar of Eyeballs all over again.
I hope it is all unplayable jank. Down to the very last card. Every single one from Theros to the Third Set. All entirely unplayable.
Then people like you would get to learn what "unplayable" truly means when you don't have Geist, Snapcaster, or Olivia to fall back on.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
If these spoiled cards are any true indication of the set, Theros is going to have gorgeous artwork. I am in love with all of these new visuals. I'd like to see "new art" reprints as well.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
If anything, these previews point to Theros being filled with completely unplayable jank that Maro defends with "But top down design!!" It's going to be Jar of Eyeballs all over again.
WE got a mythic rare and a rare and some cute un/commons and that leads you to think it's going to be a terrible set
Why do we even bother... You thought Innistrad was bad.
I like you Valarin but you are a hater through and through
Seems pretty weird of a list, but what's more important is how it plays. (not what money cards they can print in there)
It's a spider that kills anything it touches; seems pretty monster-like even though it isn't huge. It's also a sweet, sweet creature; possibly the best spider in the game (alongside Juvenile Gloomwidow)
EDH: URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.) BMaralen of the MornsongB UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB Standard: UMono U DevotionU Casual: GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
WE got a mythic rare and a rare and some cute un/commons and that leads you to think it's going to be a terrible set
Why do we even bother... You thought Innistrad was bad.
I like you Valarin but you are a hater through and through
Innistrad was bad. Top down design was more important than actual good cards. Maybe 20 playable cards in the entire set. People just fell for the horror cliche. Same thing here, they are falling for "Oh look, it's Greek!" and bypassing the fact they are bad cards. How many more Jar of Eyeballs will players suffer through before they stop happily gobbling up whatever junk Maro phones in every set?
Honesty is not being a hater. Hopeless optimism is FAR more damaging to the health of the game than honest evaluation of cards. Hopeless optimism is how they get away pumping out 90% crap every single set
Maybe these were just 6 rough cards and the rest of the set wil be amazing, I don't know, but going by the lead designers track record, I'm not holding my breath. Maro cares far more about trying to make himself look clever than making quality cards. I wonder how many meetings he fell asleep in while designing this set.
Then people like you would get to learn what "unplayable" truly means when you don't have Geist, Snapcaster, or Olivia to fall back on.
LOL. "People like me"? You mean people who don't like junk cards, or how they make the good cards in the set automatically $50 a pop cause they are all forced to mythic so the as to not violate the sanctity of limited, leading to more $600-$700 standard decks? You mean us people?
mb someone else gets this abbility who knows.
Heroic - Whenever YOU cast a spell that targets cardname...
The fact that it appears you can go monstrous at instant speed seems pretty good.
Destructive Revelry is a sure-fire sideboard card as long as R/G remains a thing.
This means we might get triggered Monstrosity - "When a creature you control dies, monstrosity 2" does sound a little weird though.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Commanders:
Basandra, Battle Seraph | Diaochan, Artful Beauty | Mayael the Anima | Nath of the Gilt Leaf | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Raksha Golden Cub | Rayne, Academy Chancellor | Roon of the Hidden Realm
I'm not saying it's an amazingly powerful card but it's certainly not terrible in standard.
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't *hate* Polukranos, or think he is "bad".
I just find him disappointing for a Legendary Mythic.
As others have said, this could be a nonlegendary Rare and not be overpowered.
Part of it is also disliking the Monstrosity mechanic based on what little we know.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
That sounds pretty terrible playing a 2/1 with no abilities on turn 2. Would be a much better curve if you said Firefist Striker. Also if it didn't include a bad 4 drop like Tajic. I like your 3 drop example though.
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Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I guess I can't respond to that kind of argument because I've never believed in the "Mythics need to be X, Y, or Z" or that "Rarity = Power" (though often more powerful cards are made rare that is hardly a rule nor something to judge that card's performance on. Once it's on the field its rarity is meaningless). As for Legendary, that's a drawback on the card but only a modest one. It didn't need to be legendary sure but then same could be said for alot of legends.
I certainly don't have any love for the mechanic either but I also don't especially mind it. It's not likely going to become a major mechanic so I just shrug and consider how the few cards that have it will function.
Would you rather he said "Goyf into Geist of Saint Traft into Falkenrath Aristocrat?"
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
The entire point of mythics is price gouging.
And the mechanic likely won't be used at all in standard because it doesn't snap the game state in half over its knee or isn't power creeped to hell and back.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Polukranos, World Eater: I've already talked about it in its thread, but I don't think this card is particularly great. There was a time where I would've been amazed Wizards printed a 4-mana 5/5 with an upside, but Deadbridge Goliath showed us these weren't that impressive. I do think it is better than Deadbridge Goliath, but not by much. It is also much worse than Olivia Voldaren when you think about it, but she is rotating, so who knows? I really think the amount of playable creatures with 1 or 2 toughness will decide how good it is in Standard, and I personally don't like it when my opponent's deck decides whether my cards are good or not...
I like Monstrosity, though. It's like a cleaner Level Up at instant-speed. It gives me hope that THS limited will be slower than average. In Draft, Polukranos is an insane bomb. Not quite the Kalonian Hydra, but not that far off.
Anax and Cymede: A couple of warrior rulers? That's amazingly badass! I think this card has a lot of potential in Standard, that body with those keywords can cause a lot of problems for a lot of decks. They also carry auras like champs. Just imagine sticking a Madcap Skills on them, your opponent better have an answer and quick! Their Heroic ability feels a little odd, though. Mostly because decks that run targeting spells don't usually play weenie/swarm strategies. Still, it will allow them to take out opposing Loxodon Smiters, and that's definitely something important.
In Draft, that Heroic ability is really insane, so is a 3-mana 3/2 vigilant first striker! Heroic should also be very interesting in Draft, as long as the auras are strong enough. I wouldn't go as far as saying they are better than Polukranos in limited, but I do think it's close.
Destructive Revelry: A nice Naturalize-with-a-plus! I prefer Sundering Growth, but that does require more building around. Anyway, it's an elegant design and should be a solid sideboard card.
In limited, it could be very strong (they didn't make it an uncommon for no reason.) But we still have to see what this enchantment theme is all about.
Ordeal of Purphoros: Is that a cycle I smell? Is Purphoros the name of the red god? Isn't it odd that it says "When you sacrifice Ordeal..." instead of "sacrifice Ordeal, it deals 3 damage..."? Well, I love this design! But you really need something able to dodge removal. I guess it's fine on a Witchstalker or Fiendslayer Paladin, but probably not enough.
In limited though, oh boy! If this is what the auras will look like in Theros, they will be a force to be reckoned with! This is extremely powerful and surprisingly cheap, it even acts as removal!
Satyr Hedonist: That's an interesting one. Once on the field, he becomes a red Dark Ritual. This is the sort of card I won't pretend to have an answer as to its power in constructed, but it definitely is interesting and worth keeping in mind.
In limited, I can't imagine going wrong with him in a R/G deck. Playing your bombs two turns is an offer you just can't refuse. It kinda surprises me that the card is common, but hey, I'm not complaining.
Cavalry Pegasus: A very cute card. It could get there if you have enough humans that need to get hits through. Right now, though, I wouldn't bet on this horse to make any splash in Standard.
Also, I love this kind of card in limited! This card is either useless or one of the best cards in your deck. Cards like this are what made Innistrad and Modern Masters drafts so amazing!
I do like how much of the Theros cards so far "have potential in/against the right deck" instead of the traditional "Wizards just printed a dumb overpowered card to get us to buy packs". This gives me hope that Theros Standard will be less about good stuff decks (looking at you, Jund) and more about synergistic and elegant ones. I also like every single one of these cards in limited.
I think the formatting would be more like "Monstrosity - When another creature you control dies, this creature becomes monstrous."
Well, considering none will be in Standard, no. But using Young Pyromancer followed by a creature that triggers mostly off of auras (R/W doesn't have good spells that target their own creatures), followed by a creature that requires other creatures in play to be at all worthwhile (if he ever is).
I would have been much happier if he said Firefist Striker>Boros Hero>almost any 4 drop that is not Tajic.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Just look at them. They friggin' look like commanders.
Here are the reprints I love:
As far as the new cards:
Polukranos, the World Eater: This is a 5/5 for 4. This is a 5/5 for 4 that kills things. This is a 5/5 for 4 that kills things and grows. This is a 5/5 for 4 that kills things and grows in mid-combat. I love this card.
Anax and Cymede: This seems interesting in standard if auras are a thing.
Satyr Hedonist: Sweet stuff. Not to mention, I love the flavor.
Destructive Revelry: RG aggro called, it now has a Naturalize.
Cavalry Pegasus: If humans are a thing, this might work.
Ordeal of Purphoros: Sick in limited. I don't think this'll cut it in constructed though.
You have no idea how much I want this to be true.
2 Brushland
4 Forest
1 Island
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Plains
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
3 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Watery Grave
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
2 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Yosei, the Morning Star
3 Greater Good
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Last Gasp
1 Putrefy
1 Reclaim
2 Farseek
4 Kodama's Reach
1 Recollect
4 Wrath of God
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Death Denied
4 Defense Grid
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Hana Kami
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Last Gasp
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Rending Vines
1 Soulless Revival
I like the looks of things so far... and I'm really excited for Theros.
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender
If anything, these previews point to Theros being filled with completely unplayable jank that Maro defends with "But top down design!!" It's going to be Jar of Eyeballs all over again.
I hope it is all unplayable jank. Down to the very last card. Every single one from Theros to the Third Set. All entirely unplayable.
Then people like you would get to learn what "unplayable" truly means when you don't have Geist, Snapcaster, or Olivia to fall back on.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
WE got a mythic rare and a rare and some cute un/commons and that leads you to think it's going to be a terrible set
Why do we even bother... You thought Innistrad was bad.
I like you Valarin but you are a hater through and through
It's a spider that kills anything it touches; seems pretty monster-like even though it isn't huge. It's also a sweet, sweet creature; possibly the best spider in the game (alongside Juvenile Gloomwidow)
*Deadly Recluse sees a Thundermaw Hellkite flying up above*
*It raises one little leg*
*Hellkite crashes and dies*
Basically because of situations like that
URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.)
BMaralen of the MornsongB
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
Standard:
UMono U DevotionU
Casual:
GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
Innistrad was bad. Top down design was more important than actual good cards. Maybe 20 playable cards in the entire set. People just fell for the horror cliche. Same thing here, they are falling for "Oh look, it's Greek!" and bypassing the fact they are bad cards. How many more Jar of Eyeballs will players suffer through before they stop happily gobbling up whatever junk Maro phones in every set?
Honesty is not being a hater. Hopeless optimism is FAR more damaging to the health of the game than honest evaluation of cards. Hopeless optimism is how they get away pumping out 90% crap every single set
Maybe these were just 6 rough cards and the rest of the set wil be amazing, I don't know, but going by the lead designers track record, I'm not holding my breath. Maro cares far more about trying to make himself look clever than making quality cards. I wonder how many meetings he fell asleep in while designing this set.
LOL. "People like me"? You mean people who don't like junk cards, or how they make the good cards in the set automatically $50 a pop cause they are all forced to mythic so the as to not violate the sanctity of limited, leading to more $600-$700 standard decks? You mean us people?