I can see this working out quite well in limited. turn 5, cast it for 3, which should be all their dudes. suddenly, you have a pretty big advantage. or if you know they have a bomb, wait for it then cast this.
The way I see it, both ideas more effectively convey a Blue flavor without stepping outside of Blue's limitations for removal. Turn to Frog is transformation, and the transformation aspect is pretty easy to recognize: The original permanent is still there. It might be a 1/1, it might be Red, it might be a goat, but it's still there. Blue gets the power to change characteristics of permanents such as power, toughness, and permanent type, but it can't outright remove them.
I feel Polymorph (And Mass Polymorph, Shape Anew, and Proteus Staff...) explores Blue's transformation in a different way: It shows experimentation. Blue is the color of unorthodox solutions, and Polymorph is as unorthodox as they come. You are betting on getting a better or worse creature, but you have no real clue outside of a dedicated combo deck. On the topic of whether or not it feels like removal, Polymorph feels like a jury rigged solution. It can be used to potentially positive effect on either friend or foe, and there is always the risk of ending up with a worse solution than the one you had. (In this way, I feel Polymorph might be UR material; it's impulsive, it's creative, and it's a bit random.)
I'll admit, after this long argument, that a lot of this comes down to how a card feels. Polymorph doesn't feel like removal to me, it feels like somebody casting a spell and not knowing what the hell is going to come out but is still interested in the results. It's Blue's creative side at work. Turn to Frog doesn't feel like removal, it feels like a tricky solution to even the odds. It's Blue's clever side at work because you can't just use it to kill something, you have to use it with something else like a blocking creature. Curse of the Swine feels like Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile: Removal that is tempered by a drawback.
WRONG! If you played D&D or any variant you would know how stupid you are sounding! Polymorph isn't random! You know what they are going to be turned into, and yes regular Polymorph is temporary. However, POWERFUL sorcerers(and wizards), like Circe, of which this card is referencing, can cast Baleful Polymorph, which PERMANENTLY changes a creature or Person. Jeesh, learn your fantasy stuff before you try to spout "x doesn't feel y"
I can see this working out quite well in limited. turn 5, cast it for 3, which should be all their dudes. suddenly, you have a pretty big advantage. or if you know they have a bomb, wait for it then cast this.
Turn 5, cast it on their 2/1s and 2/2 and give them 3 2/2s. Seems good.
WRONG! If you played D&D or any variant you would know how stupid you are sounding! Polymorph isn't random! You know what they are going to be turned into, and yes regular Polymorph is temporary. However, POWERFUL sorcerers(and wizards), like Circe, of which this card is referencing, can cast Baleful Polymorph, which PERMANENTLY changes a creature or Person. Jeesh, learn your fantasy stuff before you try to spout "x doesn't feel y"
But this isn't D&D, this is MtG. There is a difference. We're talking about blue here. It's polymorph IS random. Exiling doesn't fit blue.
Plus, wasn't Circe's polymorphing of Odysseus' crew NOT permanent in that it was later undone?
So that is why Heliod needed Elspeth... The evil satyr god wannabe bought a play set of this card and turned all the big 5 into pigs, but since Elspeth is not a creature and her tokens would actually get stronger if hit by the curse, she became the ultimate weapon.
WRONG! If you played D&D or any variant you would know how stupid you are sounding! Polymorph isn't random! You know what they are going to be turned into, and yes regular Polymorph is temporary. However, POWERFUL sorcerers(and wizards), like Circe, of which this card is referencing, can cast Baleful Polymorph, which PERMANENTLY changes a creature or Person. Jeesh, learn your fantasy stuff before you try to spout "x doesn't feel y"
Polymorph in Magic might share the same name as the spell in Dungeons and Dragons, but Magic isn't Dungeons and Dragons and does not need to follow the conventions of Dungeons and Dragons. I thought the Chaotic Evil devils on Innistrad would have taught you that.
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The wedding is over. Now it's time for the honeymoon.
We're talking about blue here. It's polymorph IS random. Exiling doesn't fit blue.
Plus, wasn't Circe's polymorphing of Odysseus' crew NOT permanent in that it was later undone?
The best way to really do a temporary shift has already been done in the form of Day of the Dragons (which is blue and does exile). If they had simply made a tweaked version of that, I wouldn't be so excited. As it stands, I love Curse of the Swine. Although I am upset that it sorta nerfs the indestructible deck that I've been collecting cards for over the past couple months.
The best way to really do a temporary shift has already been done in the form of Day of the Dragons (which is blue and does exile). If they had simply made a tweaked version of that, I wouldn't be so excited. As it stands, I love Curse of the Swine. Although I am upset that it sorta nerfs the indestructible deck that I've been collecting cards for over the past couple months.
It's really powerful, make no mistake. It's flavourful too - I'm just not sure how blue it actually is being targeted exile and all.
At least with day of the dragons it was only your own creatures and as you noted only temporarily. I just don't see the colour pie justification for this one.
Also my format of choice is commander, and this is ridiculous there.
Polymorph in Magic might share the same name as the spell in Dungeons and Dragons, but Magic isn't Dungeons and Dragons and does not need to follow the conventions of Dungeons and Dragons. I thought the Chaotic Evil devils on Innistrad would have taught you that.
But, since you know what Polymorph is capable of(in the hands of a powerful caster) you would know that flavor-wise this card makes perfect sense.
You have some good points. But I don't think permanent non-random transformation is outside of blue's color pie - after all, shouldn't it be on a similar principle to green getting Giant Growth for a turn or Oakenform forever? Blue doesn't seem like the color to specialize in only temporary forms of certain magic.
I also think that the ideal flavor sometimes has to make concessions for the mechanics. I'm sure R&D would print this card as "X target creatures lose all abilities and become 2/2 green boars" if they could. But that card is a lot more complex and a lot less clear, and I think Curse of the Swine would have been scrapped entirely if it was stuck being that instead of its current printing.
I feel like the debate is mostly about semantics - whether the card has the word "exile" or "becomes" printed on it seems more important to people than how the card actually plays.
Think of it like Chandra, Pyromaster's 0 ability. She's supposed to draw you a card that you have to use this turn. They could have printed the ability as "Draw a card and keep it revealed as long as it's in your hand this turn. At the beginning of your next end step, discard that card" to perfectly capture the mechanic they were aiming for, but that's a busier template for little gain.
It would be very easy for people to complain that Chandra's ability is blue/black - after all, they're the main colors that get to exile cards from libraries and cast them. But since it plays like a temporary card draw, it fits in red. And I think that since exile-and-give-you-a-token plays like a transformation, it fits in blue.
And I think that since exile-and-give-you-a-token plays like a transformation, it fits in blue.
Of course it does, the people who think putting a creature in a graveyard and making a token makes more sense for a blue morph spell can't explain how that is more in flavor than exiling the creature where it can't can be so easily put into play right next to it's supposed new form. Or even worse, pongify on an indestructible creature is a total failure since it just puts a 3/3 into play for no apparent reason.
If the gripe with the card is that the cost is too low and too close to real creature removal that it comes close to stepping on the toes of colors who should have the best creature removal, well, I get that, white having the best mass creature removal and the best and cheapest single target creature removal has always annoyed me since that's supposed to be black's strength, I don't care if they can explain it away the color pie the issue is it's doing the job of another color and it's doing it better, and that's BS if you care about about balance.
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@_@
Reprint Misdirection and Dominate . There, now you can you lose to your own cards instead of being mad at blue.
ahaha, i love those boar tokens perfect, I feel like maybe there are enough cards for a cool transmutation deck, blue spells that morph peoples stuff into pigs, sheep, apes, snakes, frogs, all sorts of good stuff lolol
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Plus, wasn't Circe's polymorphing of Odysseus' crew NOT permanent in that it was later undone?
Who cares? Does the card say anything about Circe or Odysseus? I can't believe how many times I've seen people bring this nonsensical point up against the card.
Curse of the Swine looks pretty good and strong. The art is weird, though, particularly as the pigs in the art don't faithfully resemble the pig in the token's art, eh.
Yeah but those are all objectively more powerful than 2/2 pigs without abilities. Would you rather have a welder or a pig?
There is nothing objective about comparing a Goblin Welder an a 2/2 vanilla creature. You can't compare them in a vacuum, without consideration of other things (e.g., the artifacts Goblin Welder welds).
You can compare stats, however, but that's not what you're suggesting here.
Why is it strange? Blue transforms all the time. Turn//Burn one of the best cards in standard. This at least gives you a creature that MIGHT not die immediately lol. 2/2's made via sorcery at least give you a chance to counterplay it.
Maybe quicken will become good enough to shove in merciless sorcery cards lol.
My only beef...er pork with this card is that it should most definitely say "non-God". Boom, then I love it. As it is, I'm not a fan flavor-wise (Circe could not turn Zeus into a pig, sorry). Also the power-level worries me. "Destroy"-polymorphs can be hindered by protection, regeneration, indestructible-ness, and hex-proof. Exile? Only protection and hexproof a mechanic that is primarily in blue...
I'd run this with Purphoros, I hope to get a sweet UR deck at the PR. So I can attack with all my dudes, then turn them into shockboars post attack ftw!!
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WRONG! If you played D&D or any variant you would know how stupid you are sounding! Polymorph isn't random! You know what they are going to be turned into, and yes regular Polymorph is temporary. However, POWERFUL sorcerers(and wizards), like Circe, of which this card is referencing, can cast Baleful Polymorph, which PERMANENTLY changes a creature or Person. Jeesh, learn your fantasy stuff before you try to spout "x doesn't feel y"
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Always making them weaker you mean. Why would you ever target something that was weaker than a pig?
Because you use dark Confidant, Goblin Welder, noble hierarch for their abbilities, not their P/T. Now you can use them for bacon too.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Turn 5, cast it on their 2/1s and 2/2 and give them 3 2/2s. Seems good.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
But this isn't D&D, this is MtG. There is a difference. We're talking about blue here. It's polymorph IS random. Exiling doesn't fit blue.
Plus, wasn't Circe's polymorphing of Odysseus' crew NOT permanent in that it was later undone?
That is flavor right there... and bacon.
Yeah but those are all objectively more powerful than 2/2 pigs without abilities. Would you rather have a welder or a pig?
Your words. I guess i missunderstood what you where trying to point out.
I do wish i could have a welding pig now, though.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Polymorph in Magic might share the same name as the spell in Dungeons and Dragons, but Magic isn't Dungeons and Dragons and does not need to follow the conventions of Dungeons and Dragons. I thought the Chaotic Evil devils on Innistrad would have taught you that.
Thanks to Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures!
The best way to really do a temporary shift has already been done in the form of Day of the Dragons (which is blue and does exile). If they had simply made a tweaked version of that, I wouldn't be so excited. As it stands, I love Curse of the Swine. Although I am upset that it sorta nerfs the indestructible deck that I've been collecting cards for over the past couple months.
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It's really powerful, make no mistake. It's flavourful too - I'm just not sure how blue it actually is being targeted exile and all.
At least with day of the dragons it was only your own creatures and as you noted only temporarily. I just don't see the colour pie justification for this one.
Also my format of choice is commander, and this is ridiculous there.
But, since you know what Polymorph is capable of(in the hands of a powerful caster) you would know that flavor-wise this card makes perfect sense.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
You have some good points. But I don't think permanent non-random transformation is outside of blue's color pie - after all, shouldn't it be on a similar principle to green getting Giant Growth for a turn or Oakenform forever? Blue doesn't seem like the color to specialize in only temporary forms of certain magic.
I also think that the ideal flavor sometimes has to make concessions for the mechanics. I'm sure R&D would print this card as "X target creatures lose all abilities and become 2/2 green boars" if they could. But that card is a lot more complex and a lot less clear, and I think Curse of the Swine would have been scrapped entirely if it was stuck being that instead of its current printing.
I feel like the debate is mostly about semantics - whether the card has the word "exile" or "becomes" printed on it seems more important to people than how the card actually plays.
Think of it like Chandra, Pyromaster's 0 ability. She's supposed to draw you a card that you have to use this turn. They could have printed the ability as "Draw a card and keep it revealed as long as it's in your hand this turn. At the beginning of your next end step, discard that card" to perfectly capture the mechanic they were aiming for, but that's a busier template for little gain.
It would be very easy for people to complain that Chandra's ability is blue/black - after all, they're the main colors that get to exile cards from libraries and cast them. But since it plays like a temporary card draw, it fits in red. And I think that since exile-and-give-you-a-token plays like a transformation, it fits in blue.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Of course it does, the people who think putting a creature in a graveyard and making a token makes more sense for a blue morph spell can't explain how that is more in flavor than exiling the creature where it can't can be so easily put into play right next to it's supposed new form. Or even worse, pongify on an indestructible creature is a total failure since it just puts a 3/3 into play for no apparent reason.
If the gripe with the card is that the cost is too low and too close to real creature removal that it comes close to stepping on the toes of colors who should have the best creature removal, well, I get that, white having the best mass creature removal and the best and cheapest single target creature removal has always annoyed me since that's supposed to be black's strength, I don't care if they can explain it away the color pie the issue is it's doing the job of another color and it's doing it better, and that's BS if you care about about balance.
Reprint Misdirection and Dominate . There, now you can you lose to your own cards instead of being mad at blue.
like pongify and ovinize and ovinomancer, maybe polymorph but thats more risdky
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
The moment magic gets involved, EVERYTHING makes sense for blue. You can't use flavor to justify mechanics for blue.
Who cares? Does the card say anything about Circe or Odysseus? I can't believe how many times I've seen people bring this nonsensical point up against the card.
Curse of the Swine looks pretty good and strong. The art is weird, though, particularly as the pigs in the art don't faithfully resemble the pig in the token's art, eh.
There is nothing objective about comparing a Goblin Welder an a 2/2 vanilla creature. You can't compare them in a vacuum, without consideration of other things (e.g., the artifacts Goblin Welder welds).
You can compare stats, however, but that's not what you're suggesting here.
alternatively, cast it on their 2/2 with an ability, and 3/4/5 drop which will be bigger than 2/2.
If all they have by turn 5 is a few 2/1 dudes, then you should already have a good advantage. limited has more then weak 2/1 dudes.
Maybe quicken will become good enough to shove in merciless sorcery cards lol.
UW Control (:symu: :symw:)