two things that would be nutso to see
God cards will be a new card type and not creatures
Will be impossible to put in your deck, all god cards must be cast from outside your deck
really people in Zendikar we had the Eldrazi (former gods)
in kamigawa we had alot of them
why do you think Theros' gods will be more special?
I once again have to be the guy, but it's just who I am.
The Eldrazi were not gods. They were mistaken for gods. It's not like the Eldrazi were gods that somehow lost their godhood.
The Kami were also something of a special situation. They were never called gods*. They WERE worshipped, but that does not exactly a God make.
*They were called Kami or spirits, and though God is an approximation when translated, the actual nuance of the concept fails to accurately match up.
(Yes, I have to be that guy. Inaccuracy in discussion bothers me. It leads to misunderstanding the subject matter, which influences others.)
I once again have to be the guy, but it's just who I am.
The Eldrazi were not gods. They were mistaken for gods. It's not like the Eldrazi were gods that somehow lost their godhood.
The Kami were also something of a special situation. They were never called gods*. They WERE worshipped, but that does not exactly a God make.
*They were called Kami or spirits, and though God is an approximation when translated, the actual nuance of the concept fails to accurately match up.
(Yes, I have to be that guy. Inaccuracy in discussion bothers me. It leads to misunderstanding the subject matter, which influences others.)
this is why i put former
----------------------------------------------
although we have had super special beings before and they still had the creature type....
The Eldrazi were literally never divine in any way shape or form. They are not, were not, and will never be 'gods', except in the eyes of some confused mortals.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Turbofog Maze's End
Modern: Goblins, IzzeTron, Tempo Twin
Legacy: Burn
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
The Eldrazi were literally never divine in any way shape or form. They are not, were not, and will never be 'gods', except in the eyes of some confused mortals.
and this is why i put former ... again ( they where worshipped and called as gods...)
The far out idea I have been tossing around the local card shop is the god cards take up a slot in your sideboard(nyx). Each god has a different condition that must be met and you can go and get it out of your side board and put it into play. An example might be the black god requires you to sacrifice 4 creatures during your mainphase, or the green one is having six forests in play. Wishes broke the rules about bringing in cards from outside your deck into play, dont see why they cant do it again.
Also the new sideboarding rule about not needing the full 15 cards in your sideboard so newbs could have their godboard(trademark, copyright) only consist of a couple god cards, might of been a hint.
Having the god cards outside the deck would help keep them in control from things like reanimate effects and show and tell.
And when the god dies, gets exiled or gets shuffled into your deck, it doesnt go to the graveyard, or deck, it goes back to your sideboard(nyx).
*They were called Kami or spirits, and though God is an approximation when translated, the actual nuance of the concept fails to accurately match up.
-Not really. Basically Kamis are not gods but gods/deities/spirits/celestials/mystics/divinity/demons/angels/etc are Kamis. To assume that 0% of the Kamis in Kamigawa are equivalent to gods is silly, as a large amount of Kamis are definitely gods and gods are a huge part of Shintoism. It would be like putting a version of the Greco-Roman pantheon in a game and having 0 gods in it.
-Also Eldrazi CAN be considered gods. Whether they officially are or aren't can be disputed, but there are plenty of references of them to say HP Lovecraft in which they were considered gods although far different from like Greek pantheon or Christian gods.
-The Nephilim are heavily considered to be demi or half gods, and in mtg can be Ravnican gods as far as we know, as they are seen as such by many cults.
-Regardless if the cards have official gods on them or not, mtg has them. There are gods in the mtg multiverse, and it makes no difference if they have been printed or not when it comes to trying to say mtg copies Yugioh by having gods on cards. We been done had gods yo.
A god is defined as a supreme supernatural being that is worshiped as a ruler of some portion or aspect of existence. They don't need to create life to be a god and Eldrazi definitely fit in with many gods of many mythologies. They also don't have to be called gods by everyone.
Regardless, referring to anything in any fantasy game as one of that universe's official "gods" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The term outside of a real religion feels childish to me.
I would much rather call them Olympians and Titans.
The far out idea I have been tossing around the local card shop is the god cards take up a slot in your sideboard(nyx). Each god has a different condition that must be met and you can go and get it out of your side board and put it into play. An example might be the black god requires you to sacrifice 4 creatures during your mainphase, or the green one is having six forests in play. Wishes broke the rules about bringing in cards from outside your deck into play, dont see why they cant do it again.
So we'd essentially be getting Syncrho and Xyz monsters in Magic.
Unless I'm mistaken, they pretty much stated during the Panel at SD that the Gods would involve/revolve around enchantments. I'm thinking you're going to have to meet some enchantment requirement to cast them which also substantially increases the odds of them being bad. They should be interesting regardless.
I'm excited; the only real issue with the three Eldrazi titans (The last unusual and powerful beings seen on cards) was that they didn't really feel different enough from each other. I'm guessing these five gods will all feel unique thanks to the predefined roles of the five colors.
Plus, there's something badass about opening a pack and finding a GOD inside.
-Also Eldrazi CAN be considered gods. Whether they officially are or aren't can be disputed, but there are plenty of references of them to say HP Lovecraft in which they were considered gods although far different from like Greek pantheon or Christian gods.
A key part of Lovecraft's writing was that the strange, powerful creatures were not actually gods with a real role in defining our lives, merely alien beings who were unbelievably powerful and indifferent to humanity.
-The Nephilim are heavily considered to be demi or half gods, and in mtg can be Ravnican gods as far as we know, as they are seen as such by many cults.
The Nephilim in Magic have nothing to do with mythological Nephilim. They were worshiped by the Cult of Yore, so I guess they could count as gods... But then by that measure, anything that has worship is a god. Hell, you can be a god with the right card and a few followers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The wedding is over. Now it's time for the honeymoon.
-Not really. Basically Kamis are not gods but gods/deities/spirits/celestials/mystics/divinity/demons/angels/etc are Kamis. To assume that 0% of the Kamis in Kamigawa are equivalent to gods is silly, as a large amount of Kamis are definitely gods and gods are a huge part of Shintoism. It would be like putting a version of the Greco-Roman pantheon in a game and having 0 gods in it.
It's still a situation where the kami are not gods, not even in terms of the Shinto pantheon. The Myojin are amongst the most powerful spirits, but they don't have the same relationship to each other that beings like Amaterasu and Susano'o do.
Aside from that, as above, the terms aren't a direct translation because conceptually they are inherently different, at the very least, int erms of scope.
-Also Eldrazi CAN be considered gods. Whether they officially are or aren't can be disputed, but there are plenty of references of them to say HP Lovecraft in which they were considered gods although far different from like Greek pantheon or Christian gods.
Very specifically, no, they weren't gods. Mind bending non-dimensional beings that warp reality? Yes. Worshiped as gods? Actually no. After all, it was the inaccurate memory of them that was worshiped, not the Eldrazi.
-The Nephilim are heavily considered to be demi or half gods, and in mtg can be Ravnican gods as far as we know, as they are seen as such by many cults.
If you are referencing the biblical Nephilim, they weren't demigods, they were the bastard children of angels. In Ravnican terms, they are not gods, but primal forces of nature. Are they worshiped? Yes, but just because something is worshiped doesn't make it a god.
-Regardless if the cards have official gods on them or not, mtg has them. There are gods in the mtg multiverse, and it makes no difference if they have been printed or not when it comes to trying to say mtg copies Yugioh by having gods on cards. We been done had gods yo.
There really aren't gods (unless there are. Curse you Gaea!) but it's been made pretty clear, to reiterate, that just because a thing is worshiped doesn't make it a god.
Else you have to deal with the TONS of planeswalkers that walked around claiming godhood. Did it make them gods? No, it did not.
They also don't have to be called gods by everyone.
I patently disagree. However, I distinctly feel that we're going to have to agree to disagree because our approaches are fundamentally different.
Edit:... Man, this is a strong sense of Deja Vu. I swear I've had this discussion before when the Eldrazi reveal was a thing.
as far as i'm concerned, none of the kami were "gods" in literal terms, the only "god kami" were the Myojins and the monster from Final Judgement (i cant remember his name)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ravarshi Kashaku, Ancient Dragon of the Darkened Realms;
The Merciless Lord of Torture, Permanently Bound To: ">[THE PACK] 11/5/63 - 11/25/09 Goodbye mom, i'll always love you...
you people should realise one thing: "God" is no fixed term. Its a big matter of interpretation. So even a normal person who walks around earth can be a god, if he has people who believe that he is one.
there are a ton of different religions, and nearly every one of them has a different interpretation of their god and of what god is.
so its impossible to say that there were never gods in mtg or there were. the thing is: if a thing is worshipped as a god, It actualy is a god!
being a god does not mean that you are allmighty. just look at the greek mythology gods. they were far from almighty, since they were beaten several times by mortals.
just because the christian god is considered almighty, does not mean that everything which is not almighty is no god.
even i could be a god, if i find enough people who worship me, and believe that im a god, even if i have zero supernatural powers.
that means: if people worshipped the old planeswalkers as gods, they actualy were gods!. if people worshipped eldrazi as gods, they were gods! and so on.
btw: im not saying that planeswalkers and eldrazi are/were gods, thats why i used "if". I never read any story about magic, so i have no idea about those things.
but just keep in mind, that gods dont need to be almighty, and "god" is far from a fix term.
as far as i'm concerned, none of the kami were "gods" in literal terms, the only "god kami" were the Myojins and the monster from Final Judgement (i cant remember his name)
O-Kogachi.
Though if you use him, you have to extend that to the Sisters of Flesh and Spirit.
Which in fairness, would probably be an accurate statement to make.
Yawgmoth was essentially a god. Avacyn was worshipped by much of Innistrad, making her a goddess, and the interaction she has with Wrath of God suggests that she might as well be the one causing it.
as far as i'm concerned, none of the kami were "gods" in literal terms, the only "god kami" were the Myojins and the monster from Final Judgement (i cant remember his name)
Written in kanji, kami is "神" and Myojin is "明神", while the char "神" exactly means GOD literally.
But in traditional Japanese culture (and Shintoism), Kamis(gods) do not have to be almighty as gods in western cultures. There are mighty gods such as Amaterasu(goddess of the sun and the universe) and her brother Tsukuyomi(god of moon), but also gods are in every tiny things. For example, Teardrop Kami, literally means "God of teardrops", is weak, but undoubtedly IS a god.
Myojin is also a god, but the word was more commonly used to describe the divine right of kings God emperor.
Weirdly enough they didn't. That's just what colourless non-artifact, non-land cards look like. See Ghostfire for reference.
Miracles actually had boarders made specifically to differentiate them and make them easily recognizable when you pulled them off the top.
Ghostfire was a Future Sight precursor for the Eldrazi. Being from Future Sight and associated with the Eldrazi through lore is not a proper example. And seeing as it's the only colorless spell that isn't an Eldrazi or an artifact, I'd say that's a slippery argument. But I would love to see colorless nonartifacts in the future; it's a cool border regardless.
Yawgmoth was essentially a god. Avacyn was worshipped by much of Innistrad, making her a goddess, and the interaction she has with Wrath of God suggests that she might as well be the one causing it.
Ghostfire was a Future Sight precursor for the Eldrazi. Being from Future Sight and associated with the Eldrazi through lore is not a proper example. And seeing as it's the only colorless spell that isn't an Eldrazi or an artifact, I'd say that's a slippery argument. But I would love to see colorless nonartifacts in the future; it's a cool border regardless.
MaRo said Ghostfire didn't appear in the Zendikar block because it's a future sight into another block.
I thought it was more because colorless spells with colored mana costs wasn't what ROE was trying to do mechanically.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Judge
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
Soo the Eldrazi where not special?
Colorless Eldrazi spells did have a special border.
Eldrazi had special borders too
God cards will be a new card type and not creatures
Will be impossible to put in your deck, all god cards must be cast from outside your deck
Weirdly enough they didn't. That's just what colourless non-artifact, non-land cards look like. See Ghostfire for reference.
Miracles actually had boarders made specifically to differentiate them and make them easily recognizable when you pulled them off the top.
do not post without reading about what you will post....
I once again have to be the guy, but it's just who I am.
The Eldrazi were not gods. They were mistaken for gods. It's not like the Eldrazi were gods that somehow lost their godhood.
The Kami were also something of a special situation. They were never called gods*. They WERE worshipped, but that does not exactly a God make.
*They were called Kami or spirits, and though God is an approximation when translated, the actual nuance of the concept fails to accurately match up.
(Yes, I have to be that guy. Inaccuracy in discussion bothers me. It leads to misunderstanding the subject matter, which influences others.)
this is why i put former
----------------------------------------------
although we have had super special beings before and they still had the creature type....
The Eldrazi were literally never divine in any way shape or form. They are not, were not, and will never be 'gods', except in the eyes of some confused mortals.
Standard: Turbofog Maze's End
Modern: Goblins, IzzeTron, Tempo Twin
Legacy: Burn
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
and this is why i put former ... again ( they where worshipped and called as gods...)
Also the new sideboarding rule about not needing the full 15 cards in your sideboard so newbs could have their godboard(trademark, copyright) only consist of a couple god cards, might of been a hint.
Having the god cards outside the deck would help keep them in control from things like reanimate effects and show and tell.
And when the god dies, gets exiled or gets shuffled into your deck, it doesnt go to the graveyard, or deck, it goes back to your sideboard(nyx).
-Not really. Basically Kamis are not gods but gods/deities/spirits/celestials/mystics/divinity/demons/angels/etc are Kamis. To assume that 0% of the Kamis in Kamigawa are equivalent to gods is silly, as a large amount of Kamis are definitely gods and gods are a huge part of Shintoism. It would be like putting a version of the Greco-Roman pantheon in a game and having 0 gods in it.
-Also Eldrazi CAN be considered gods. Whether they officially are or aren't can be disputed, but there are plenty of references of them to say HP Lovecraft in which they were considered gods although far different from like Greek pantheon or Christian gods.
-The Nephilim are heavily considered to be demi or half gods, and in mtg can be Ravnican gods as far as we know, as they are seen as such by many cults.
-Regardless if the cards have official gods on them or not, mtg has them. There are gods in the mtg multiverse, and it makes no difference if they have been printed or not when it comes to trying to say mtg copies Yugioh by having gods on cards. We been done had gods yo.
A god is defined as a supreme supernatural being that is worshiped as a ruler of some portion or aspect of existence. They don't need to create life to be a god and Eldrazi definitely fit in with many gods of many mythologies. They also don't have to be called gods by everyone.
Regardless, referring to anything in any fantasy game as one of that universe's official "gods" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The term outside of a real religion feels childish to me.
I would much rather call them Olympians and Titans.
RoblinTheGoblin's Pro M15 Template:
RoblinTheGoblin's Pro M15 Template v1.3
Also includes M15+ real god stars, promo template, super art template, planeswalker template
So we'd essentially be getting Syncrho and Xyz monsters in Magic.
Unless I'm mistaken, they pretty much stated during the Panel at SD that the Gods would involve/revolve around enchantments. I'm thinking you're going to have to meet some enchantment requirement to cast them which also substantially increases the odds of them being bad. They should be interesting regardless.
Plus, there's something badass about opening a pack and finding a GOD inside.
A key part of Lovecraft's writing was that the strange, powerful creatures were not actually gods with a real role in defining our lives, merely alien beings who were unbelievably powerful and indifferent to humanity.
Which sums up the Eldrazi pretty well.
The Nephilim in Magic have nothing to do with mythological Nephilim. They were worshiped by the Cult of Yore, so I guess they could count as gods... But then by that measure, anything that has worship is a god. Hell, you can be a god with the right card and a few followers.
Thanks to Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures!
Are they comparable to gods? Maybe, but they weren't called gods.
It's still a situation where the kami are not gods, not even in terms of the Shinto pantheon. The Myojin are amongst the most powerful spirits, but they don't have the same relationship to each other that beings like Amaterasu and Susano'o do.
Aside from that, as above, the terms aren't a direct translation because conceptually they are inherently different, at the very least, int erms of scope.
Very specifically, no, they weren't gods. Mind bending non-dimensional beings that warp reality? Yes. Worshiped as gods? Actually no. After all, it was the inaccurate memory of them that was worshiped, not the Eldrazi.
If you are referencing the biblical Nephilim, they weren't demigods, they were the bastard children of angels. In Ravnican terms, they are not gods, but primal forces of nature. Are they worshiped? Yes, but just because something is worshiped doesn't make it a god.
There really aren't gods (unless there are. Curse you Gaea!) but it's been made pretty clear, to reiterate, that just because a thing is worshiped doesn't make it a god.
Else you have to deal with the TONS of planeswalkers that walked around claiming godhood. Did it make them gods? No, it did not.
I patently disagree. However, I distinctly feel that we're going to have to agree to disagree because our approaches are fundamentally different.
Edit:... Man, this is a strong sense of Deja Vu. I swear I've had this discussion before when the Eldrazi reveal was a thing.
The Merciless Lord of Torture, Permanently Bound To: ">[THE PACK] 11/5/63 - 11/25/09 Goodbye mom, i'll always love you...
Tibalt & His Devils vs. Avacyn's Inquisitors
My EDH decklists
there are a ton of different religions, and nearly every one of them has a different interpretation of their god and of what god is.
so its impossible to say that there were never gods in mtg or there were. the thing is: if a thing is worshipped as a god, It actualy is a god!
being a god does not mean that you are allmighty. just look at the greek mythology gods. they were far from almighty, since they were beaten several times by mortals.
just because the christian god is considered almighty, does not mean that everything which is not almighty is no god.
even i could be a god, if i find enough people who worship me, and believe that im a god, even if i have zero supernatural powers.
that means: if people worshipped the old planeswalkers as gods, they actualy were gods!. if people worshipped eldrazi as gods, they were gods! and so on.
btw: im not saying that planeswalkers and eldrazi are/were gods, thats why i used "if". I never read any story about magic, so i have no idea about those things.
but just keep in mind, that gods dont need to be almighty, and "god" is far from a fix term.
O-Kogachi.
Though if you use him, you have to extend that to the Sisters of Flesh and Spirit.
Which in fairness, would probably be an accurate statement to make.
Written in kanji, kami is "神" and Myojin is "明神", while the char "神" exactly means GOD literally.
But in traditional Japanese culture (and Shintoism), Kamis(gods) do not have to be almighty as gods in western cultures. There are mighty gods such as Amaterasu(goddess of the sun and the universe) and her brother Tsukuyomi(god of moon), but also gods are in every tiny things. For example, Teardrop Kami, literally means "God of teardrops", is weak, but undoubtedly IS a god.
Myojin is also a god, but the word was more commonly used to describe
the divine right of kingsGod emperor.I do not sign 5yr+ old cards. Please do not pm me for this.
Ghostfire was a Future Sight precursor for the Eldrazi. Being from Future Sight and associated with the Eldrazi through lore is not a proper example. And seeing as it's the only colorless spell that isn't an Eldrazi or an artifact, I'd say that's a slippery argument. But I would love to see colorless nonartifacts in the future; it's a cool border regardless.
That was O-Kagachi.
Lim-Dul Zombies
Kresh | Ghost Council | Sliver Overlord | Reaper King | Sharuum
Kaalia | Ghave | Zedruu | Mimeoplasm | Riku | Child of Alara (Kamigawa) | Anax and Cymede | Damia | Melek | Rakdos | Vela
Building:
Derevi | Maelstrom Wanderer (Primeval) | Nekusar | Borb, Enraged | Tymaret | Ur-Dragon | Marrow-Gnawer | Ruric Thar | Lavinia
MaRo said Ghostfire didn't appear in the Zendikar block because it's a future sight into another block.
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!