Why do you say that? EDH is a casual format its not like if they added basic lands types to the card it would be used all of a sudden. It still would only tap for your general's colors and you only have a general in EDH. It seems to me this would make the card better for the format and not do much for the vintage/legacy crowd.
Making it so easy to tutor for would just make it really good. I wouldn't be upset by it, but the power level of these hypothetical lands would be higher if they have basic types. Being forest/swamp/island/mountain/plains is part of why the original duals are so good. I would argue that that fact, combined with efficient basic land tutoring, is what makes ramp and green so good in EDH.
With or without basic land types, they would be used in most EDH decks.
Why do you say that? EDH is a casual format its not like if they added basic lands types to the card it would be used all of a sudden. It still would only tap for your general's colors and you only have a general in EDH. It seems to me this would make the card better for the format and not do much for the vintage/legacy crowd.
WotC can't print a Legendary Dual Land with the land types because it would likely qualify as a "functional reprint" of the ABUR Duals, which the Reserved List does not allow (unless it had an additional rules text). The virtual Fork has a secondary loophole exploited, since it could be argued that it was a "color-shifted" version of Twincast.
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WotC can't print a Legendary Dual Land with the land types because it would likely qualify as a "functional reprint" of the ABUR Duals, which the Reserved List does not allow (unless it had an additional rules text). The virtual Fork has a secondary loophole exploited, since it could be argued that it was a "color-shifted" version of Twincast.
Incorrect. To directly quote the Reprint Policy:
"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
Adding Legendary, while a supertype, would qualify as "not functionally identical". Additionally, it would not have the Basic supertype, either. WotC has previously stated that "Snow" Duals would technically be okay, if not ever going to happen.
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
I am not sure it would be a good idea to make them, but I am pretty sure that Legendary is enough of a changed to make them printable. It seems like a much bigger functional change and drawback than "comes into play tapped unless you pay 2 life".
Adding Legendary, while a supertype, would qualify as "not functionally identical". Additionally, it would not have the Basic supertype, either. WotC has previously stated that "Snow" Duals would technically be okay, if not ever going to happen.
can you provide a source? I thought they said the exact opposite about "snow".
A functional reprint would be a card named Glacier which has the types Island and Plains and no other abilities.
Making a legendary dual makes a lot of sense overall. It makes it easier for people to compete in Legacy, makes it easier for commader players to get good fixing and would drive sales like crazy. All cube owners would want them. I really can't think of a reason not to unless they actively want Legacy to die.
The original duals were a mistake, and Wizards doesn't like to repeat mistakes. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they considered the Fetch lands, or putting basic land types on Shocks to be a mistake. It is plausible, although unlikely, that they would print Legendary duals with no basic land types, but Legendary duals with basic land types are too close to the originals.
The only conceivable reason they would print such lands is for Legacy, and I don't see that happening. Wizards isn't much concerned about Legacy. Legacy will live no matter what. It may become an old man's game and a rich man's game, but it will live. It is very evident that Wizards is pushing Modern to be Legacy's more popular replacement.
Also, let's not forget that these are for Commander decks. The target audience for this product is casual players. While casual players would enjoy these lands, they may not like the price hikes that result from a massive buyout of the product. These things retail for $30 if I am correct, so Wizards really doesn't want to shove to many 20+ dollars cards in the set.
My real hope that is that each box will come with a Sensei's Divining Top just like the last set had a Sol Ring in every one. I think seeing the invasion dragons again is likely as one of the alt commanders in the box as well.
My real hope that is that each box will come with a Sensei's Divining Top just like the last set had a Sol Ring in every one. I think seeing the invasion dragons again is likely as one of the alt commanders in the box as well.
You and I are of a like mind. It's absurd that an uncommon from a large set within the last ten years costs more than $10. Frankly, I think it's absurd that ANY uncommon from a set past Invasion costs more than $5, but that's neither here nor there. Given how ubiquitous Top is, there's no reason not to get it out there and drive that silly price down. Collectors will always have the FTV Exiled one to drool over. In addition, if it weren't for the people who treat A GAME like the stock market, this would be the perfect place to reprint Wasteland en masse and drive its price down to reasonable levels. However, that won't happen for the same reason Force of Will won't happen: none of the product would get to the people for which it's intended.
As for the Invasion dragons, they do seem quite likely. However, as a nod to the format's origins (and since four of the five have been reprinted recently), I'd rather see them reprint all five of the original Elder Dragons, each with new art (save Bolas, who could keep the badass artwork from FTV Dragons). I'm sure there's someone out there who'd give their firstborn for a new-frame, new-art, black-bordered Chromium.
Top is unlikely, given that it's $15+ and they have only so much "budget" to fit into these decks, or at least they did last time.
before the Commander decks, Sol Ring was a $15 card.
the only reason i could see them not putting Tops in these decks is the fact that they have repeatedly stated they don't like how much extra time Top adds to the average game of Magic.
granted, that is in reference to organized/tournament play, and this is a casual product.
My real hope that is that each box will come with a Sensei's Divining Top just like the last set had a Sol Ring in every one. I think seeing the invasion dragons again is likely as one of the alt commanders in the box as well.
Driving down Top's price would be nice, but Top in large quantities is very unfun. I've been in 5 person Commander games where 4 people had the Top...it was horrible. I can't see Wizards reprinting a card, in a casual set, that was banned from tournament play for being time consuming. The decks should appeal to kitchen table casuals, not tournament hardened Spikes (Nothing wrong with either, but casuals are the target with Commander products). Two players with Top is bad enough, imagine 4+.
That being said, I never thought they would reprint Sol Ring, so who knows.
They won't print legendary duals. The free strip mine aspect of the legendary rule is gone, yeah, but there's still the issue of drawing dead cards. That's fine on some utility land like Academy Ruins or Eye of Ugin, but basic color fixing isn't the sort of thing that you want limited that hard.
It wouldn't be nearly as bad in Commander, I guess, but Command Tower shows they've got ways to fix mana in this format without printing a ton of duals that are just going to get grabbed up by legacy players.
Ok -
So maybe this was covered already, but I didn't see it in the first few pages.
15 new cards per deck x 5 decks = 75 "new" cards BUT
51 cards new to magic means that what ? 25 of those cards are in multiple new commander decks ?
So each deck will have [less than]10 cards (on average) that none of the other commander decks have - and they'll be at least 25 cards that appear in more than one each of the new decks? This quantity and distribution sounds an awful lot (to me) like a new spin on duals - but mana rocks and utili-lands could be a possibility also.
I'm at work right now, so I can't math that well. Anyone care to help out ?
They won't print legendary duals. The free strip mine aspect of the legendary rule is gone, yeah, but there's still the issue of drawing dead cards. That's fine on some utility land like Academy Ruins or Eye of Ugin, but basic color fixing isn't the sort of thing that you want limited that hard.
It wouldn't be nearly as bad in Commander, I guess, but Command Tower shows they've got ways to fix mana in this format without printing a ton of duals that are just going to get grabbed up by legacy players.
I disagree with this. I think legendary dual lands are certainly within the realm of possibility with the new legend rule. The first one you play is free, the second one isn't a complete disaster (since you do get to keep one of the two now) and you don't have the awkward mirror match possibility. I'd be a bit surprised if legendary duals were printed, but I wouldn't be *shocked*, and Theros is a logical place to do it. Yes, Legacy players are going to grab them up, both in addition to the current duals or just to replace them because they're expensive. But the print run of a new set is so huge compared to Revised that even that pressure isn't going to affect the price that much.
Sol Ring was included in commander 1.0 because wizards knew it would be bannded, same for Ironforge Mystic in the event deck.... Maybe they include some OP card on this products, one that is currently banned on the french list....
Sol Ring isn't banned. The only card in the original commander product that's banned is Trade Secrets, and that was only in the Political Puppets deck.
And Stoneforge Mystic was put into the event deck before it was banned -- since the deck was built long before it was released -- and it was put there by people who weren't responsible for the banlist. By the time everyone at Wizards knew what was coming down the pipe with regards to the ban, it was too late to change the deck. The printing process had already begun.
A command tower with all 5 basic land types. Unplayable in other formats to save it from breaking other formats.
A land with all five basic land types could only be played in a five color EDH deck.
903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander’s color identity.
I suppose you could print something like
Landy Land
Land
Landy Land has each basic land type that could produce a color in your commander's color identity.
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool. Landy Land is a land!
(The wording of the static ability would need a little adjusting)
That would make it a characteristic-defining ability, so it would have the appropriate land types while in your deck and would thus be fetchable. In a colorless EDH deck or outside EDH, it would tap for :1mana:.
Ok -
So maybe this was covered already, but I didn't see it in the first few pages.
15 new cards per deck x 5 decks = 75 "new" cards BUT
51 cards new to magic means that what ? 25 of those cards are in multiple new commander decks ?
So each deck will have [less than]10 cards (on average) that none of the other commander decks have - and they'll be at least 25 cards that appear in more than one each of the new decks? This quantity and distribution sounds an awful lot (to me) like a new spin on duals - but mana rocks and utili-lands could be a possibility also.
I'm at work right now, so I can't math that well. Anyone care to help out ?
There could be 9 new unique cards per deck (9*5 = 45)
then the remaining 6 cards per deck are not unique for that deck (45+6=51)
Edit: Hmmm thinking about it this is true... all 5 decks must have 6 exact new cards. : | uhh help?
There could be 9 new unique cards per deck (9*5 = 45)
then the remaining 6 cards per deck are not unique for that deck (45+6=51)
Edit: Hmmm thinking about it this is true... all 5 decks must have 6 exact new cards. : | uhh help?
They did the same thing with the last ones... each new rare or mythic was in only one deck... the commons and uncommons showed up in 2 or 3 of the new decks. I'm not going to bother working out the math but it sounds like they are doing it the same way they did the first batch.
There could be 9 new unique cards per deck (9*5 = 45)
then the remaining 6 cards per deck are not unique for that deck (45+6=51)
Edit: Hmmm thinking about it this is true... all 5 decks must have 6 exact new cards. : | uhh help?
And if they follow previous EDH product pattern, each will include 1 preexisting shard commander (invasion or legends dragons, obvs) with two alternate shard commanders and two dual-colored commanders per deck (right?) - for a total of 4 of the unique new cards allocated to each deck.
They did the same thing with the last ones... each new rare or mythic was in only one deck... the commons and uncommons showed up in 2 or 3 of the new decks. I'm not going to bother working out the math but it sounds like they are doing it the same way they did the first batch.
For the first Commander product, there were 51 new cards. Of the 51 new cards, only 11 were shared amongst the 5 decks. Command Tower was in every deck. All of the common "Vow" cards as well as the new uncommon card in each color were in every deck that could support the card. That left 40 new cards (rares and mythics) to be distributed amongst the 5 decks, with each deck getting 8 new cards (2 mythics, 6 rares) that could only be found in that deck.
Does anyone think it likely that some of the Commander-only and/or Planechase-only cards may appear in one or more decks?
Not all of them, of course, and certainly not the 'join forces' cards, but cards like Chaos Warp or Baleful Strix? I know it is possible, but is it likely?
I'll be happy with more Sol Rings and Command Towers.
Cheers!
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Making it so easy to tutor for would just make it really good. I wouldn't be upset by it, but the power level of these hypothetical lands would be higher if they have basic types. Being forest/swamp/island/mountain/plains is part of why the original duals are so good. I would argue that that fact, combined with efficient basic land tutoring, is what makes ramp and green so good in EDH.
With or without basic land types, they would be used in most EDH decks.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
WotC can't print a Legendary Dual Land with the land types because it would likely qualify as a "functional reprint" of the ABUR Duals, which the Reserved List does not allow (unless it had an additional rules text). The virtual Fork has a secondary loophole exploited, since it could be argued that it was a "color-shifted" version of Twincast.
Incorrect. To directly quote the Reprint Policy:
"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
Adding Legendary, while a supertype, would qualify as "not functionally identical". Additionally, it would not have the Basic supertype, either. WotC has previously stated that "Snow" Duals would technically be okay, if not ever going to happen.
Commanders:
Basandra, Battle Seraph | Diaochan, Artful Beauty | Mayael the Anima | Nath of the Gilt Leaf | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Raksha Golden Cub | Rayne, Academy Chancellor | Roon of the Hidden Realm
can you provide a source? I thought they said the exact opposite about "snow".
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Making a legendary dual makes a lot of sense overall. It makes it easier for people to compete in Legacy, makes it easier for commader players to get good fixing and would drive sales like crazy. All cube owners would want them. I really can't think of a reason not to unless they actively want Legacy to die.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
The only conceivable reason they would print such lands is for Legacy, and I don't see that happening. Wizards isn't much concerned about Legacy. Legacy will live no matter what. It may become an old man's game and a rich man's game, but it will live. It is very evident that Wizards is pushing Modern to be Legacy's more popular replacement.
Also, let's not forget that these are for Commander decks. The target audience for this product is casual players. While casual players would enjoy these lands, they may not like the price hikes that result from a massive buyout of the product. These things retail for $30 if I am correct, so Wizards really doesn't want to shove to many 20+ dollars cards in the set.
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R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
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You and I are of a like mind. It's absurd that an uncommon from a large set within the last ten years costs more than $10. Frankly, I think it's absurd that ANY uncommon from a set past Invasion costs more than $5, but that's neither here nor there. Given how ubiquitous Top is, there's no reason not to get it out there and drive that silly price down. Collectors will always have the FTV Exiled one to drool over. In addition, if it weren't for the people who treat A GAME like the stock market, this would be the perfect place to reprint Wasteland en masse and drive its price down to reasonable levels. However, that won't happen for the same reason Force of Will won't happen: none of the product would get to the people for which it's intended.
As for the Invasion dragons, they do seem quite likely. However, as a nod to the format's origins (and since four of the five have been reprinted recently), I'd rather see them reprint all five of the original Elder Dragons, each with new art (save Bolas, who could keep the badass artwork from FTV Dragons). I'm sure there's someone out there who'd give their firstborn for a new-frame, new-art, black-bordered Chromium.
UBDragonlord Silumgar WGKarametra, God of Harvests
BRUNekusar, the Mindrazer BGMazirek, Kraul Death Priest
URMelek, Izzet Paragon UGPrime Speaker Zegana
WUHanna, Ship's Navigator BWUSydri, Galvanic Genius
WUBRGSliver Queen RBBladewing the Risen
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council RGXenagos, God of Revels
GFreyalise, Llanowar's Fury RWAurelia, the Warleader
RIb Halfheart, Goblin Tactician BDrana, Liberator of Malakir
UAzami, Lady of Scrolls WNahiri, the Lithomancer
WBGDoran, the Siege Tower CEmrakul, the Promised End
before the Commander decks, Sol Ring was a $15 card.
the only reason i could see them not putting Tops in these decks is the fact that they have repeatedly stated they don't like how much extra time Top adds to the average game of Magic.
granted, that is in reference to organized/tournament play, and this is a casual product.
hey, don't forget that Craw Giant time-shifted reprint!
and Greater Morphling! ;D
same with me and a UB Ninja lord.
Vela works well mechanically for a ninja-themed deck, but it's not quite teh same. : /
but...your general doesn't "have" basic land types.
and getting that mechanic across with correct wording/templating would be a nightmare.
Driving down Top's price would be nice, but Top in large quantities is very unfun. I've been in 5 person Commander games where 4 people had the Top...it was horrible. I can't see Wizards reprinting a card, in a casual set, that was banned from tournament play for being time consuming. The decks should appeal to kitchen table casuals, not tournament hardened Spikes (Nothing wrong with either, but casuals are the target with Commander products). Two players with Top is bad enough, imagine 4+.
That being said, I never thought they would reprint Sol Ring, so who knows.
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It wouldn't be nearly as bad in Commander, I guess, but Command Tower shows they've got ways to fix mana in this format without printing a ton of duals that are just going to get grabbed up by legacy players.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
So maybe this was covered already, but I didn't see it in the first few pages.
15 new cards per deck x 5 decks = 75 "new" cards
BUT
51 cards new to magic means that what ? 25 of those cards are in multiple new commander decks ?
So each deck will have [less than]10 cards (on average) that none of the other commander decks have - and they'll be at least 25 cards that appear in more than one each of the new decks? This quantity and distribution sounds an awful lot (to me) like a new spin on duals - but mana rocks and utili-lands could be a possibility also.
I'm at work right now, so I can't math that well. Anyone care to help out ?
I disagree with this. I think legendary dual lands are certainly within the realm of possibility with the new legend rule. The first one you play is free, the second one isn't a complete disaster (since you do get to keep one of the two now) and you don't have the awkward mirror match possibility. I'd be a bit surprised if legendary duals were printed, but I wouldn't be *shocked*, and Theros is a logical place to do it. Yes, Legacy players are going to grab them up, both in addition to the current duals or just to replace them because they're expensive. But the print run of a new set is so huge compared to Revised that even that pressure isn't going to affect the price that much.
And Stoneforge Mystic was put into the event deck before it was banned -- since the deck was built long before it was released -- and it was put there by people who weren't responsible for the banlist. By the time everyone at Wizards knew what was coming down the pipe with regards to the ban, it was too late to change the deck. The printing process had already begun.
A land with all five basic land types could only be played in a five color EDH deck.
903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander’s color identity.
I suppose you could print something like
Land
Landy Land has each basic land type that could produce a color in your commander's color identity.
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
Landy Land is a land!
That would make it a characteristic-defining ability, so it would have the appropriate land types while in your deck and would thus be fetchable. In a colorless EDH deck or outside EDH, it would tap for :1mana:.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
There could be 9 new unique cards per deck (9*5 = 45)
then the remaining 6 cards per deck are not unique for that deck (45+6=51)
Edit: Hmmm thinking about it this is true... all 5 decks must have 6 exact new cards. : | uhh help?
----------------------------
Club Flamingo Wins: 10
----------------------------
EDH Decks
BG Vicious Varolz | RW Jor Kadeen, the Mean Machine | RG Atarka: Muh_Dragons.dec (WIP) | WU Brago, Blink Eternal (WIP)
----------------------------
They did the same thing with the last ones... each new rare or mythic was in only one deck... the commons and uncommons showed up in 2 or 3 of the new decks. I'm not going to bother working out the math but it sounds like they are doing it the same way they did the first batch.
And if they follow previous EDH product pattern, each will include 1 preexisting shard commander (invasion or legends dragons, obvs) with two alternate shard commanders and two dual-colored commanders per deck (right?) - for a total of 4 of the unique new cards allocated to each deck.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
For the first Commander product, there were 51 new cards. Of the 51 new cards, only 11 were shared amongst the 5 decks. Command Tower was in every deck. All of the common "Vow" cards as well as the new uncommon card in each color were in every deck that could support the card. That left 40 new cards (rares and mythics) to be distributed amongst the 5 decks, with each deck getting 8 new cards (2 mythics, 6 rares) that could only be found in that deck.
However, I could see the hot reprint being Mana Vault.
Not all of them, of course, and certainly not the 'join forces' cards, but cards like Chaos Warp or Baleful Strix? I know it is possible, but is it likely?
I'll be happy with more Sol Rings and Command Towers.
Cheers!
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