Ladies and gentlemen, we have our bomb mythic for the core set. In the context of standard, this is a servicable, explosive kill condition in the context of current Jund midrange. In a deck that already has the ability and options to strip hands and control the board, this is a dude that really, really shines. I'd like to see him as a 3 or 4 of mainboard.
Post rotation, he has obvious application in the Thragtusk slot of Jund midrange, and probably the only green-based deck that will have a decent card for those slots.
It feels like he'll play the same role as Tarmogoyf in modern and legacy: Dumb, but efficient and rapid beatdown. Doom Blade being back in the format is probably a check on this guy to keep him from dominating it.
Jund Midrange would never play this. This and Tusk are two totally different creatures. This literally does nothing to aid Jund's gameplan.
Also, Goyf? The Baneslayer/Thundermaw comparisons I can at least understand even if I wholeheartedly disagree..but Goyf? Stop. Just stop.
This card is fringe-playable in constructed. It reliably wins the game in 3 attack phases, and many times even in two. People talking about combos are missing the point. This guy is a one-card combo. Kill it now, or you lose. It combos best with any card that gives your creatures haste.
The only thing stopping this card from being totally awesome is that it dies to removal and doesn't impact the board the turn it comes into play. In many ways, it's a green Baneslayer Angel, trading lifelink for more aggro.
around every creature dies to removal, besides the few hexproof ones, so this is not really an argument for a creature not being good^^.
goyf dies to nearly every removal too, so :D.
also with exava and ogre battledriver right on curve in front of this thing, this seems really really playable in a jund-midrange aggro deck. i mean it just costs 5, even RDW plays a few fivedrops most of the times.
around every creature dies to removal, besides the few hexproof ones, so this is not really an argument for a creature not being good^^.
goyf dies to nearly every removal too, so :D.
The dies to removal argument becomes relevant when the mana cost of said removal is compared to the card it's answering. Answering Goyf on curve with Abrupt Decay for instance is fine. When the investment in question is 5 mana for the Hydra and you pass the turn only for him to be dealt with by Doom Blade, Mizzium Mortars, Dreadbore, Detention Sphere, Selesnya Charm when he attacks the subsequent turn and etc., this is not fine. This is why ETB begins to matter as you rise up the curve because it starts to make your opponents answers more efficient.
The dies to removal argument becomes relevant when the mana cost of said removal is compared to the card it's answering. Answering Goyf on curve with Abrupt Decay for instance is fine. When the investment in question is 5 mana for the Hydra and you pass the turn only for him to be dealt with by Doom Blade, Mizzium Mortars, Dreadbore, Detention Sphere, Selesnya Charm when he attacks the subsequent turn and etc., this is not fine. This is why ETB begins to matter as you rise up the curve because it starts to make your opponents answers more efficient.
Note: I am not saying he is of the same power level of Tarmogoyf. This is madness.
I am saying that he'll play a role similar to Tarmogoyf in Standard, in that any deck that can protect him to a reasonable degree will have a very powerful, answer or die threat available to them.
I'm also not saying he'll play the same role as Thragtusk, merely occupy the same slots when 'tusk rotates out. It'll be interesting to see how the format evolves without Thragtusk populating it.
And I'm thinking back to Thundermaw Hellkite, when he was spoiled. I had people calling me mad when I was banging on him...and then his value quadrupled.
The dies to removal argument becomes relevant when the mana cost of said removal is compared to the card it's answering. Answering Goyf on curve with Abrupt Decay for instance is fine. When the investment in question is 5 mana for the Hydra and you pass the turn only for him to be dealt with by Doom Blade, Mizzium Mortars, Dreadbore, Detention Sphere, Selesnya Charm when he attacks the subsequent turn and etc., this is not fine. This is why ETB begins to matter as you rise up the curve because it starts to make your opponents answers more efficient.
Absolute true, and why the stuff that provides an advantage even IF they have removal is so crazy strong (Titans, Wurmcoil Engine, Tusk, all do that, the hellkite provided haste and traded souls, all quite strong).
Hydra is still a house, simply depends how many removal is played, as you cant put 20 removal spells in your deck if you need one for anything the opponent plays.
Just imagine the decks that run Advent, Voice and allready produce enough 5/5 sized stuff that you "must" kill, adding the hydra to that mix will be punishing, especially if you can abuse it further (mostly haste, maybe even that green rare instant might flash it in with an extra +1/+1 counter, ready to strike to kill).
Its clearly not a Tusk card you put in every green deck and see results, but it will guarante kills if they dont have hard removal right away (which will be a pain anyway).
5 mana slot is pushed a lot, cards at that level comparable to the hydra will be so strong, that they win if they dont die.
The Silver did similiar stuff, its 8/8 and pushes +4/+4 on another dude, its most the time a similiar effect than the hydra (sure it wont allow the double strike combo and the like) ; so it MIGHT be worse than even the Silver, but its still easily an evil creature (as its really the kind of card that wins in 2 attacks, which might be 1 too much to ask for).
As it stands right now, we might see the hydra in playtesting for the green/black and green/white kind of decks we know from block (as they provide some interaction to push the hydra to be deadly in 1 swing).
Fully aware since it's been mentioned numerous times and I've been involved in this conversation for a while. I'm evaluating this card in a vacuum, as I should be, since the odds of hitting Exava/Battledriver -> this card on curve without being disrupted consistently is small enough to disregard. I'm applying the same level of scrutiny to this card as I would any other card.
I'll probably also say this for the 3rd or maybe 4th time haha, becuase I don't want people to get the wrong impression, but I do think this card is good. Just because it's good however does not mean it will see standard play.
The Silver did similiar stuff, its 8/8 and pushes +4/+4 on another dude, its most the time a similiar effect than the hydra (sure it wont allow the double strike combo and the like) ; so it MIGHT be worse than even the Silver, but its still easily an evil creature (as its really the kind of card that wins in 2 attacks, which might be 1 too much to ask for).
I do believe they are comparable but Silverheart did provide psuedo haste of sorts when he ETB (was also predicated on board presence). I very much would have loved to see how standard played out if Thragtusk wasn't printed and Silverheart's usage carried over from block into standard. It's a scary thought though, as without Thragtusk nothing could keep aggro in check.
The Hydra, by himself, represents a quicker clock than either of the aforementioned cards. I just hope the format allows him to thrive.
u guys just have to think about one thing: thragtusk and hellkite rotoate out. we have no titans or wurmcoil engines anymore, powercreep seems a to slow down a little.
if theros does not bring many bombs, every creature slot above 3cmc got much weaker.
no tusk, no falkenrath aristocrat, no olivia, no hellkite, no sublime archangel, titan, elesh norn, wurmcoil are out for a long time now.
i think we can clearly see a develepment. while innistrad directly followed the completly broken scars block, we saw some overpushed creatures but not as bad as in scars block.
now innistrat rotates and we have much less creatures pushed like tusk, hellkite or whatever.
so a creauture like this hydra is the biggest pwoerhouse currently.
u guys just have to think about one thing: thragtusk and hellkite rotoate out. we have no titans or wurmcoil engines anymore, powercreep seems a to slow down a little.
if theros does not bring many bombs, every creature slot above 3cmc got much weaker.
no tusk, no falkenrath aristocrat, no olivia, no hellkite, no sublime archangel, titan, elesh norn, wurmcoil are out for a long time now.
i think we can clearly see a develepment. while innistrad directly followed the completly broken scars block, we saw some overpushed creatures but not as bad as in scars block.
now innistrat rotates and we have much less creatures pushed like tusk, hellkite or whatever.
so a creauture like this hydra is the biggest pwoerhouse currently.
This is true. In comparison to RTR block constructed this is easily the best 5-drop in G and it's not even close. I also believe Exava to be the best R/x 4-drop. You have something there. I do think he will have more competition come Theros however.
Okay, so I had a post typed out here but it got eaten or something. =/
Basically, Deadbridge is far more efficient of a beatstick than this guy is. By far.
EDIT: If we're talking about two-card combos (like people are with this hydra + Exava), then consider the following:
Turn 3: Play Primordial Hydra as a 1/1.
Turn 4: Hydra doubles to a 2/2... play Corpsejack Menace. Attack for 2 w/Hydra.
Turn 5: Hydra would get 2 more counters, but CJM adds an additional 2, making it a 6/6. Attack for 6 w/Hydra and 4 w/CJM. Total damage dealt so far by Primordial Hydra is 8, plus 4 from CJM (same as Kalonian Hydra + Exava at this point).
Turn 6: Hydra gets 6 counters, doubled by CJM to make 12 counters total, bringing it up to an 18/18 overall.
Also, keep in mind that you can do this and still be playing a curve that maxes out at 4CC, AND that is supported by a mana base of only 2 colors (something that is going to be very, very relevant once the current format rotates; wanting to be able to reliable do a 2RB -> 3GG like you're proposing isn't going to be nearly as easy as it currently is).
Fully aware since it's been mentioned numerous times and I've been involved in this conversation for a while. I'm evaluating this card in a vacuum, as I should be, since the odds of hitting Exava/Battledriver -> this card on curve without being disrupted consistently is small enough to disregard. I'm applying the same level of scrutiny to this card as I would any other card.
I'll probably also say this for the 3rd or maybe 4th time haha, becuase I don't want people to get the wrong impression, but I do think this card is good. Just because it's good however does not mean it will see standard play.
I do believe they are comparable but Silverheart did provide psuedo haste of sorts when he ETB (was also predicated on board presence). I very much would have loved to see how standard played out if Thragtusk wasn't printed and Silverheart's usage carried over from block into standard. It's a scary thought though, as without Thragtusk nothing could keep aggro in check.
The Hydra, by himself, represents a quicker clock than either of the aforementioned cards. I just hope the format allows him to thrive.
Okay, so I had a post typed out here but it got eaten or something. =/
Basically, Deadbridge is far more efficient of a beatstick than this guy is. By far.
A 4 turn clock that gets chumped forever is a more efficient beatstick than a 2 trun clock with trample?
Yes, I'm aware that Deadbridge enters as a 5/5 for 4 and the hydra enters as a 4/4 for 5. But the fact that it has trample and grows exponentially (with its attack as a 8/8) makes the Hydra much more efficient.
A 4 turn clock that gets chumped forever is a more efficient beatstick than a 2 trun clock with trample?
Yes, I'm aware that Deadbridge enters as a 5/5 for 4 and the hydra enters as a 4/4 for 5. But the fact that it has trample and grows exponentially (with its attack as a 8/8) makes the Hydra much more efficient.
See my updated post. It gives a much more... um... Timmy-friendly answer.
See my updated post. It gives a much more... um... Timmy-friendly answer.
The Problem with this Scenario is that Primordial Hydra doesn't have trample until it's power is ten or greater. And it has to sit on the field for three turns before it stops getting chumped. And in the first two turns it even dies to every single burn spell in the format.
Dream scenario is obviously t1 mana dork; t2 Gyre Sage; t3 Increasing Savagery on Gyre Sage--tap it for GGGGG cast Behemoth; t4 flashback Increasing Savagery on Behemoth swing for a million (well, 28. 29 if you attack with the mana dork).
Bonus points for Burst of Strength shenanigans. If you use the extra mana you get (10 mana on turn 4) to untap Gyre Sage, then you'll swing for 42 total.
Just a basic idea. There are 20 elves in this deck, and there are other options to harness that mana. I don't think you need 4 Increasing Savagery. I'm thinking 3 Savagery 1 Give // Take is enough. Burst of Strength is probably just too cute but it does give you a lot of mana potential; Vorel of the Hull Clade also likes being untapped.
I believe Maro said something about each color getting an iconic creature as a mythic, which has support in the lower rarities.
Dave Guskin mentioned how those ended up in the finished product:
Lineages
The design handoff had a strong cycle of mythic rare iconic creatures (Angel, Demon, Dragon, etc.) that each had its own vertical cycle of support cards at lower rarities. So, for example, the Sphinx had a Sphinx-tribal effect and there were Sphinxes at lower rarities. As we playtested and tweaked the set, we found some of the mythic rares were really fun and some felt off, and that keeping them as a tight cycle was over-constraining their coolness and fun factor.
We kept support cards at lower rarities but reduced them to one per color. We also found the most fun version of each mythic rare, a pure expression of what that iconic was all about, and made sure there was a clear casual-Constructed path for a player to attach to and then make his or her own. This is one of my favorite parts of Mark's design, because it provides a playground of exploration for newer players to take small steps into the wider world of Constructed.
Probably the best Hydra I've seen. Still probably won't see play.
That's crazy but probably true.
How good does a quasi-vanilla 5 CMC creature have to be to see competitive play? Are we talking like 15/15 or 20/20 here? People have pretty much forgotten about Ghoultree already, he usually gets cast for about 4 mana or so but the problem was no trample and having to build your deck around graveyard shenanigans.
Probably the best Hydra I've seen. Still probably won't see play.
I don't know? Trample is nothing to sneeza at and it could be splashed with blue to protect it. Doom Blade is coming back (thank God), but this guy hits hard and for 8 easy when sumoning sickness leaves.
Also, Simic now has a dude to be a beat stick and source of easy +1+1 counters.
When you think about it, the amount of answers for this guy spans across all colors and color combinations. If he does start to make waves in standard, most deck won't have to adjust their removal suites as they already handily deal with the Hydra. Think about it, he's weak to Mizzium Mortars, Selesnya Charm (being weak to both Mortars and Charm is just odd), Doom Blade, Putrefy, Dreadbore, Warleader's Helix, Azorius Charm (since has has no ETB this will lead to major tempo loss), Detention Sphere, Turn/Burn, every sweeper and the list just goes on. The fact that he's a 4/4 do nothing when he ETBs is relevant.
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Jund Midrange would never play this. This and Tusk are two totally different creatures. This literally does nothing to aid Jund's gameplan.
Also, Goyf? The Baneslayer/Thundermaw comparisons I can at least understand even if I wholeheartedly disagree..but Goyf? Stop. Just stop.
I don't even care if this card sees play in competitive Standard anymore. This set looks to be packed with all kinds of casual fun.
The only thing stopping this card from being totally awesome is that it dies to removal and doesn't impact the board the turn it comes into play. In many ways, it's a green Baneslayer Angel, trading lifelink for more aggro.
goyf dies to nearly every removal too, so :D.
also with exava and ogre battledriver right on curve in front of this thing, this seems really really playable in a jund-midrange aggro deck. i mean it just costs 5, even RDW plays a few fivedrops most of the times.
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The dies to removal argument becomes relevant when the mana cost of said removal is compared to the card it's answering. Answering Goyf on curve with Abrupt Decay for instance is fine. When the investment in question is 5 mana for the Hydra and you pass the turn only for him to be dealt with by Doom Blade, Mizzium Mortars, Dreadbore, Detention Sphere, Selesnya Charm when he attacks the subsequent turn and etc., this is not fine. This is why ETB begins to matter as you rise up the curve because it starts to make your opponents answers more efficient.
Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch or Ogre Battledriver curve with the hydra, just so you know
I am saying that he'll play a role similar to Tarmogoyf in Standard, in that any deck that can protect him to a reasonable degree will have a very powerful, answer or die threat available to them.
I'm also not saying he'll play the same role as Thragtusk, merely occupy the same slots when 'tusk rotates out. It'll be interesting to see how the format evolves without Thragtusk populating it.
And I'm thinking back to Thundermaw Hellkite, when he was spoiled. I had people calling me mad when I was banging on him...and then his value quadrupled.
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Standard:
Boros Burn
Absolute true, and why the stuff that provides an advantage even IF they have removal is so crazy strong (Titans, Wurmcoil Engine, Tusk, all do that, the hellkite provided haste and traded souls, all quite strong).
Hydra is still a house, simply depends how many removal is played, as you cant put 20 removal spells in your deck if you need one for anything the opponent plays.
Just imagine the decks that run Advent, Voice and allready produce enough 5/5 sized stuff that you "must" kill, adding the hydra to that mix will be punishing, especially if you can abuse it further (mostly haste, maybe even that green rare instant might flash it in with an extra +1/+1 counter, ready to strike to kill).
Its clearly not a Tusk card you put in every green deck and see results, but it will guarante kills if they dont have hard removal right away (which will be a pain anyway).
5 mana slot is pushed a lot, cards at that level comparable to the hydra will be so strong, that they win if they dont die.
The Silver did similiar stuff, its 8/8 and pushes +4/+4 on another dude, its most the time a similiar effect than the hydra (sure it wont allow the double strike combo and the like) ; so it MIGHT be worse than even the Silver, but its still easily an evil creature (as its really the kind of card that wins in 2 attacks, which might be 1 too much to ask for).
As it stands right now, we might see the hydra in playtesting for the green/black and green/white kind of decks we know from block (as they provide some interaction to push the hydra to be deadly in 1 swing).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Fully aware since it's been mentioned numerous times and I've been involved in this conversation for a while. I'm evaluating this card in a vacuum, as I should be, since the odds of hitting Exava/Battledriver -> this card on curve without being disrupted consistently is small enough to disregard. I'm applying the same level of scrutiny to this card as I would any other card.
I'll probably also say this for the 3rd or maybe 4th time haha, becuase I don't want people to get the wrong impression, but I do think this card is good. Just because it's good however does not mean it will see standard play.
I do believe they are comparable but Silverheart did provide psuedo haste of sorts when he ETB (was also predicated on board presence). I very much would have loved to see how standard played out if Thragtusk wasn't printed and Silverheart's usage carried over from block into standard. It's a scary thought though, as without Thragtusk nothing could keep aggro in check.
The Hydra, by himself, represents a quicker clock than either of the aforementioned cards. I just hope the format allows him to thrive.
if theros does not bring many bombs, every creature slot above 3cmc got much weaker.
no tusk, no falkenrath aristocrat, no olivia, no hellkite, no sublime archangel, titan, elesh norn, wurmcoil are out for a long time now.
i think we can clearly see a develepment. while innistrad directly followed the completly broken scars block, we saw some overpushed creatures but not as bad as in scars block.
now innistrat rotates and we have much less creatures pushed like tusk, hellkite or whatever.
so a creauture like this hydra is the biggest pwoerhouse currently.
This is true. In comparison to RTR block constructed this is easily the best 5-drop in G and it's not even close. I also believe Exava to be the best R/x 4-drop. You have something there. I do think he will have more competition come Theros however.
Basically, Deadbridge is far more efficient of a beatstick than this guy is. By far.
EDIT: If we're talking about two-card combos (like people are with this hydra + Exava), then consider the following:
Turn 3: Play Primordial Hydra as a 1/1.
Turn 4: Hydra doubles to a 2/2... play Corpsejack Menace. Attack for 2 w/Hydra.
Turn 5: Hydra would get 2 more counters, but CJM adds an additional 2, making it a 6/6. Attack for 6 w/Hydra and 4 w/CJM. Total damage dealt so far by Primordial Hydra is 8, plus 4 from CJM (same as Kalonian Hydra + Exava at this point).
Turn 6: Hydra gets 6 counters, doubled by CJM to make 12 counters total, bringing it up to an 18/18 overall.
Also, keep in mind that you can do this and still be playing a curve that maxes out at 4CC, AND that is supported by a mana base of only 2 colors (something that is going to be very, very relevant once the current format rotates; wanting to be able to reliable do a 2RB -> 3GG like you're proposing isn't going to be nearly as easy as it currently is).
WotC, please hire me already.
It's a fair evaluation but turning good creatures into amazing creatures with haste enablers is not without precedent in standard
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
A 4 turn clock that gets chumped forever is a more efficient beatstick than a 2 trun clock with trample?
Yes, I'm aware that Deadbridge enters as a 5/5 for 4 and the hydra enters as a 4/4 for 5. But the fact that it has trample and grows exponentially (with its attack as a 8/8) makes the Hydra much more efficient.
See my updated post. It gives a much more... um... Timmy-friendly answer.
WotC, please hire me already.
The Problem with this Scenario is that Primordial Hydra doesn't have trample until it's power is ten or greater. And it has to sit on the field for three turns before it stops getting chumped. And in the first two turns it even dies to every single burn spell in the format.
Bonus points for Burst of Strength shenanigans. If you use the extra mana you get (10 mana on turn 4) to untap Gyre Sage, then you'll swing for 42 total.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Gyre Sage
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Master Biomancer
2 Fathom Mage
4 Kalonian Hydra
4 Increasing Savagery
2 Give // Take
Just a basic idea. There are 20 elves in this deck, and there are other options to harness that mana. I don't think you need 4 Increasing Savagery. I'm thinking 3 Savagery 1 Give // Take is enough. Burst of Strength is probably just too cute but it does give you a lot of mana potential; Vorel of the Hull Clade also likes being untapped.
Dave Guskin mentioned how those ended up in the finished product:
The hydra is sweet.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
That's crazy but probably true.
How good does a quasi-vanilla 5 CMC creature have to be to see competitive play? Are we talking like 15/15 or 20/20 here? People have pretty much forgotten about Ghoultree already, he usually gets cast for about 4 mana or so but the problem was no trample and having to build your deck around graveyard shenanigans.
I don't know? Trample is nothing to sneeza at and it could be splashed with blue to protect it. Doom Blade is coming back (thank God), but this guy hits hard and for 8 easy when sumoning sickness leaves.
Also, Simic now has a dude to be a beat stick and source of easy +1+1 counters.
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