1) Wizards has stated previously utility is not mythic, and outside of Modern Masters, mythic is reserved for splashier effects. Think about it, if Snapcaster Mage was not mythic, and thoughtseize, which has been printed when mythics existed was a rare before, it will still be a rare. If mutavault wasn't bumped to mythic, neither will Thoughtseize. It will be a chase rare, ala Tusk or Snap, which will go for 15-20, maybe a little more, maybe even a few dollars less.
2) In this world of agro and current mana fixing, it take most likely 4 life for a turn one thought seize. Assuming a check land is one of the next two, you can snap it back again turn three, but you would be taking 6 life to do so. While it is an incredibly good card, I think an aggro deck might push through the other 14 if the player is not lucky. So I think due to the life hit, Wizards would be fine with a Snapcaster/TS double dip for only three months.
3) And while I think Duress does not eliminate Thoughtseize from M14, it does decrease it's likelihood.
Originally, I felt that when MM was spoiled, it seemed clear Seize and Vault would be in the next year. Because Vault felt so synergistic with Slivers & Wizards has said Core sets are for new players and new players do not like paying life, it seemed Vault would be in M14 and Seize in Theros with new art. But after Jeebus said he had on good authority Seize would be in M14, I still will wait and see until it is fully spoiled. Would love Seize mixed into the current meta for a few months.
I agree with pretty much all of what you've said, but I think I need to speak about point 3. I don't think the presence of duress detracts from TS's chances at all. Black commonly has discard at both rare and lower rarities. Usually it is something like duress or distress in the low rarity while rare gets some overpriced spell like Wit's End that makes an opponent discard many cards......after their hand has all ready long been empty because they've been casting those spells to their advantage over the course of the game.
For once black's rare discard effect would be something you could play rather than throw into the chaos-confetti-proxy pile.
Yes they both fit into the same slot on the curve and fulfill similar roles, but that hasn't stopped llanowar elves from being printed alongside birds of paradise year after year.
sorry but even if you are a mod, i cant believe that.
why the hell would they reprint darksteel forge without any artifacts, you could use with it.
also wasnt duress ruled out by the number crunch?
the only card i could see in m14 is the millstone.
First off, there are plenty of artifacts to use with the forge secondly theres only 162 cards out of 249 which makes your entire first argument invalid, secondly duress has been reprinted in basically every core set since M10 so hows it that hard to believe
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1) Wizards has stated previously utility is not mythic, and outside of Modern Masters, mythic is reserved for splashier effects. Think about it, if Snapcaster Mage was not mythic, and thoughtseize, which has been printed when mythics existed was a rare before, it will still be a rare. If mutavault wasn't bumped to mythic, neither will Thoughtseize. It will be a chase rare, ala Tusk or Snap, which will go for 15-20, maybe a little more, maybe even a few dollars less.
Mythic Rares began being printed with Shards of Alara, not Lorwyn. Lorwyn had the first occurrence of Planeswalkers, but they were printed at rare.
Mythic Rares began being printed with Shards of Alara, not Lorwyn. Lorwyn had the first occurrence of Planeswalkers, but they were printed at rare.
This is true. Mythics weren't things when thoughtseize was printed. Still, thoughtseize would arguably never have been a mythic even if the rarity has existed. It lacks all the hallmarks of a mythic. Putting it at rare was arguably a stretch.
They only thing mythical about it is its secondary market price tag that is caused by an acute lack of supply.
Quicken, that's right. Currently, Darksteel Forge makes your Yotian Soldier an indestructible 1/1 with Humility on the table because 'indestructible' isn't an ability yet. After the "artifacts you control have indestructible" errata, your artifact creatures would lose 'indestructible' under Humility.
Quote from Magic 2014 Core Set Rules Preview »
So, starting with the Magic 2014 Core Set , indestructible is now a keyword. It will appear by its lonesome on permanents that naturally have it and in abilities like "target creature gains indestructible until end of turn."
Why does this matter? Well, for the most part it doesn't, but it can be different in two cases:
Case 1: A permanent is made indestructible by another spell or ability (for example, Withstand Death), and then it loses all abilities. Previously, it would still be indestructible, because that was just something true about the permanent. It wasn't an ability the permanent had. With the change, the permanent will no longer have indestructible.
Case 2: Creatures (or permanents) you control are made indestructible until end of turn by a spell or ability (for example, Boros Charm). Previously, a creature that came under your control after that spell or ability resolved would be indestructible, as that spell or ability didn't change the characteristics of any creature. With the change, that new creature won't have indestructible as it wasn't under your control at the right time to gain it.
First off, there are plenty of artifacts to use with the forge secondly theres only 162 cards out of 249 which makes your entire first argument invalid, secondly duress has been reprinted in basically every core set since M10 so hows it that hard to believe
.....And where are these artifacts you speak of that make forge worth that CMC? The Sliver? Search light? "Snicker" Keys? Dude you are a mess, you are a mess and have no clue. It's ok though, I still loves ya, ya nut.
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So this is the actual Darksteel Forge card from M14. I don't know where it came from but it doesn't look fake to me. I think it's important to note that cards are still indestructible and do not "have" indestructible. Thank god. I was afraid Wizards was going to toss good grammar and the English language out the window for a few people who couldn't understand an ability. So I'm guessing its a keyword now, but it's still worded how it used to be?
EDIT: If I am imagine leeching, I apologize and I will gladly fix it if I can.
I am guessing that is a mockup with the old wording, since I would imagine it would work like flying, and things like Levitation say "have flying" which is just as broken grammer as have Indestructible.
I am guessing that is a mockup with the old wording, since I would imagine it would work like flying, and things like Levitation say "have flying" which is just as broken grammer as have Indestructible.
Considering the artist credit is "Mockup", it's probably a mockup. Maybe. Can't be certain.
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Wizards, please do not sabotage the english language and grammar for players who can't understand a card ruling.
I've been playing DotP 14, and sadly, the latter is the case. Indestructibility now reads "Enchanted creature has indestructible." Sadly, this is the price we pay for Wizards wanting to make it a keyword.
Sadly, this is the price we pay for Wizards wanting to make it a keyword.
I loled.
This is making things simpler and consistent. Instead of something reading:
"Shroud, Haste, Trample
X is indestructible"
It's now just
"Shroud, Haste, Trample, Indestructible"
It's not "ANNIHILATING THE ENTIRE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AS WE KNOW IT" or anything like that. It's simplifying a keyword-worthy mechanic and then making it consistent with other cards that "give creatures X"
Could be a strategy to unload as many thougthseizes as possible now that they are reprinting it. The best way to do that is make people think it won't be reprinted.
Can't really say I'm sure why people assume that Duress being in means Thoughtseize is automatically out. Thoughtseize is still going to be a relatively expensive card even after being reprinted in M14, and Duress is a staple common-level Discard spell. Thoughtseize will be at least Rare, so it can't have much of an impact on limited while being in the same set as Duress, and discard isn't even a great strategy for limited, anyway.
Can't really say I'm sure why people assume that Duress being in means Thoughtseize is automatically out. Thoughtseize is still going to be a relatively expensive card even after being reprinted in M14, and Duress is a staple common-level Discard spell. Thoughtseize will be at least Rare, so it can't have much of an impact on limited while being in the same set as Duress, and discard isn't even a great strategy for limited, anyway.
Just taking a stab at why here, and obviously not speaking for everyone.
Most times, a card is printed to fill a role they want available in a set--hard to think of a set that doesn't have 'a cheap discard spell', or a 'cheap burn spell' for example. Even though WOTC hates land destruction, for example, and doesn't want it to become a viable strategy, they still seem to print 1-2 land destruction spells per set, because they want that role available, even if it's costed into non-viability. Since duress is in, most people are assuming that it's filling the role of 'cheap discard spell'--and anything else that would fill that role is most likely out.
As a different question, has Modern Masters changed the 'normal' WOTC plan of insuring early sales by reprinting past chase cards? We've already got Mutavault spoiled for M14, had shocklands in RTR/GTC(and somewhat in DGM), and there are other examples. These reprints help drive initial demand for sets, by supplying cards with somewhat known values--by printing a great many of those in MoMa, is there a danger of WOTC not having enough for M14/Theros/future sets?
Can't really say I'm sure why people assume that Duress being in means Thoughtseize is automatically out. Thoughtseize is still going to be a relatively expensive card even after being reprinted in M14, and Duress is a staple common-level Discard spell. Thoughtseize will be at least Rare, so it can't have much of an impact on limited while being in the same set as Duress, and discard isn't even a great strategy for limited, anyway.
I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with prices or limited. I think it's that wotc wouldn't want both these beasts in standard at the same time. That would be pretty brutal, right? (or am I crazy?)
I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with prices or limited. I think it's that wotc wouldn't want both these beasts in standard at the same time. That would be pretty brutal, right? (or am I crazy?)
You'd have to be playing really heavy black to be running them both, and well... Black's power level isn't all that great. The thing is, Standard will continue to be an aggro-heavy format for some time to come. Discard is best against control and combo. Due to erring on the side of caution, combo doesn't usually happen in Standard, and control has been redefined by creatures with powerful activated and triggered abilities. Duress has been available in the last few years and almost never seen competitive play because of that. At most, Thoughtseize would probably end up being a sideboard card in Standard. Having them in the same format really wouldn't do much, since Duress already doesn't see much play as it is due to not hitting creatures and a lack of traditional control.
I agree with pretty much all of what you've said, but I think I need to speak about point 3. I don't think the presence of duress detracts from TS's chances at all. Black commonly has discard at both rare and lower rarities. Usually it is something like duress or distress in the low rarity while rare gets some overpriced spell like Wit's End that makes an opponent discard many cards......after their hand has all ready long been empty because they've been casting those spells to their advantage over the course of the game.
For once black's rare discard effect would be something you could play rather than throw into the chaos-confetti-proxy pile.
Yes they both fit into the same slot on the curve and fulfill similar roles, but that hasn't stopped llanowar elves from being printed alongside birds of paradise year after year.
First off, there are plenty of artifacts to use with the forge secondly theres only 162 cards out of 249 which makes your entire first argument invalid, secondly duress has been reprinted in basically every core set since M10 so hows it that hard to believe
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WG Maverick
R Burn
EDH
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Mythic Rares began being printed with Shards of Alara, not Lorwyn. Lorwyn had the first occurrence of Planeswalkers, but they were printed at rare.
This is true. Mythics weren't things when thoughtseize was printed. Still, thoughtseize would arguably never have been a mythic even if the rarity has existed. It lacks all the hallmarks of a mythic. Putting it at rare was arguably a stretch.
They only thing mythical about it is its secondary market price tag that is caused by an acute lack of supply.
Quicken, that's right. Currently, Darksteel Forge makes your Yotian Soldier an indestructible 1/1 with Humility on the table because 'indestructible' isn't an ability yet. After the "artifacts you control have indestructible" errata, your artifact creatures would lose 'indestructible' under Humility.
Source
Well, I'm sure we can put faith in all those unofficial spoilers you're providing us with.
.....And where are these artifacts you speak of that make forge worth that CMC? The Sliver? Search light? "Snicker" Keys? Dude you are a mess, you are a mess and have no clue. It's ok though, I still loves ya, ya nut.
There is buried treasure everywhere...in a graveyard.
~ is indestructible.
Artifacts you control are indestructible.
and not;
~ has indestructible.
Artifacts you control have indestructible.
Wizards, please do not sabotage the english language and grammar for players who can't understand a card ruling.
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I am guessing that is a mockup with the old wording, since I would imagine it would work like flying, and things like Levitation say "have flying" which is just as broken grammer as have Indestructible.
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Considering the artist credit is "Mockup", it's probably a mockup. Maybe. Can't be certain.
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I've been playing DotP 14, and sadly, the latter is the case. Indestructibility now reads "Enchanted creature has indestructible." Sadly, this is the price we pay for Wizards wanting to make it a keyword.
X has flying
X has shroud
X has trample
X has hexproof
X has Intimidate
X has t: add 1 to your mana pool.
X has Flash
X has Indestructible
Artifacts you control have Indestructible
Green legendary creatures you control have "bands with other legendary creatures."
Creatures you control have flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, and protection from black and from red.
As long as Anger is in your graveyard and you control a Mountain, creatures you control have haste.
Creatures you control have hexproof.
Other green creatures you control have intimidate.
Golem creatures you control have first strike.
Red creatures you control have first strike.
As long as Brawn is in your graveyard and you control a Forest, creatures you control have trample.
Other Soldier creatures you control get +1/+1 and have vigilance.
Other creatures you control with flanking have flanking.
Black creatures you control have wither.
Skeleton creatures you control and other Zombie creatures you control get +1/+1 and have deathtouch.
As long as Diregraf Escort is paired with another creature, both creatures have protection from Zombies.
Other Spirit creatures you control get +1/+1 and have hexproof.
-7: You get an emblem with "Creatures you control have double strike, trample, hexproof, and haste."
Creatures you control have haste.
I could go on.
Not saying it does make sense grammatically, but that it is more important for the rules for it to be formatted the same way.
ahh he fixed the image link since I comment on it...it was just a broken image before. Well don't I look foolish now.
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I loled.
This is making things simpler and consistent. Instead of something reading:
"Shroud, Haste, Trample
X is indestructible"
It's now just
"Shroud, Haste, Trample, Indestructible"
It's not "ANNIHILATING THE ENTIRE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AS WE KNOW IT" or anything like that. It's simplifying a keyword-worthy mechanic and then making it consistent with other cards that "give creatures X"
I think we're being a weee bit melodramatic.
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Just taking a stab at why here, and obviously not speaking for everyone.
Most times, a card is printed to fill a role they want available in a set--hard to think of a set that doesn't have 'a cheap discard spell', or a 'cheap burn spell' for example. Even though WOTC hates land destruction, for example, and doesn't want it to become a viable strategy, they still seem to print 1-2 land destruction spells per set, because they want that role available, even if it's costed into non-viability. Since duress is in, most people are assuming that it's filling the role of 'cheap discard spell'--and anything else that would fill that role is most likely out.
As a different question, has Modern Masters changed the 'normal' WOTC plan of insuring early sales by reprinting past chase cards? We've already got Mutavault spoiled for M14, had shocklands in RTR/GTC(and somewhat in DGM), and there are other examples. These reprints help drive initial demand for sets, by supplying cards with somewhat known values--by printing a great many of those in MoMa, is there a danger of WOTC not having enough for M14/Theros/future sets?
There is no new ruling.
It is just wording.
All effects remain the same.
Uhh as far as i understand you are incorrect, I believe that now that indestructible is a keyword, its now removed by humility and others.
I stand corrected there is a thing.
I've seen in in Myr decks in Modern.
Humility decks.
Fun casual card (depending on whose take on "fun" you're considering)
I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with prices or limited. I think it's that wotc wouldn't want both these beasts in standard at the same time. That would be pretty brutal, right? (or am I crazy?)
You'd have to be playing really heavy black to be running them both, and well... Black's power level isn't all that great. The thing is, Standard will continue to be an aggro-heavy format for some time to come. Discard is best against control and combo. Due to erring on the side of caution, combo doesn't usually happen in Standard, and control has been redefined by creatures with powerful activated and triggered abilities. Duress has been available in the last few years and almost never seen competitive play because of that. At most, Thoughtseize would probably end up being a sideboard card in Standard. Having them in the same format really wouldn't do much, since Duress already doesn't see much play as it is due to not hitting creatures and a lack of traditional control.
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