So...every card ever. Seriously, what earthly good does a definition like this do?
That's not true. There are plenty of cards that don't really tickle anyone's fancy except ironically. Boring vanilla filler for Limited (Pillarfield Ox) or obnoxiously terrible (Wood Elemental).
There's plenty of overlap between cards that are strong in both competitive and non-competitive formats. The Titans are probably the banner-carriers here, as are things like Consecrated Sphinx, the Zeniths, the better Infect cards.... I just hate to think that anyone went into YMTC voting thinking "I really want a card that competitive players won't like" rather than "I think this card is particularly good."
Sure, of course. But, if something is both casual-friendly AND good in competitive decks, people usually just say its "good." Only if it's not good in competitive do you typically get people qualifying that judgment by saying "good in EDH" or whatever.
It's not a hard and fast definition, of course, but there's a reason RoN is more casually appealing than, say, Storm Crow.
The more that I look at this card, the more that I sigh. The entire top 8 bracket was terrible, though, so I got over it pretty quickly. Some people are far too emotionally invested in this (angriest that I got was the fool who entered who was outside North America, and I hardly shrugged). I still like the idea of YMTC, though, even if it is now 50/50 on success rate for me. Maybe next time Wizards will make better choices with which cards make it through.
On a side note, it's pretty amusing that both the pro- and anti-card crowds are raging so hard. Let it go. If the complainers and the defenders stopped looking at one another's posts whilst foaming at the mouth with revenge in the heart, this thread would be a lot more civil. Never gonna happen, but even so. It's a contest: whose voice is louder? Winner gets nothing at all.
Gotta ignore the trolls, man. They will try to get a rise out of you, but really, they're just e-mad and internet warriors. This one guy, who shall not be named (it was a user named MRHBlue, whoops), tried to troll me through PMs, but it failed miserably. Exactly as predicted, treating the trolling as less than substantial will blow the troll out of the water, and he'll weep into his pillow at night.
Forum experiences are much more positive without the trolls. Gotta try to ignore them!
That every card ever has an audience and thus deserves to be printed?
This is patently untrue. There is an audience for [0]: Win the game. That doesn't mean it deserves to be printed.
It's also a rather significant diversion from my point, which is that "a card a person likes = casual card" is a really ineffective definition. The "competitive/casual" distinction is generally highly overplayed from both sides on MTGS--people who call themselves "competitive" players dump on "casuals," and self-avowed "casual" players malign "competitive" "spikes" for making Magic too expensive or ruining EDH or whatnot. This thread is a perfect example of the intense urge to factionize the game. RoN isn't a victory for "casuals" over "Spikes." It's a victory for "people who like playing discard theme decks" over "people who like recurring creatures from their graveyard." There are casuals on both sides of that debate and it's pretty ridiculous for loudmouths to subsume the debate for an off-topic flame war.
The disconnect here is that some users think this is a narrow card for casual play, so they assume that the people who are dismissing it only care about competitive magic.
In reality this card will be unplayable anywhere. After playing with it, you will take it out of your Warped Devotion deck and replace it with a set of Geth's Grimoire, and it will be a huge improvement.
For those of you who do want to like this card, don't worry. They'll probably tweak it a bit.
Don't you realize you answered your own question right there about who voted for it? All the kitchen table players.
Short of pre-releases and the occasional store draft I'm a kitchen table player these days. I voted for the other card. I also happen to have a number of Lifetime Pro Points under my belt from many moons ago when I had time to do that sort of thing.
people want to make discard a powerful archetype, i don't see the crime. the abilities have the potential to be strong and it just comes down to how wizards costs this card.
its actual strength doesn't come from us, it comes from wizards (imagine a 3 to cast vizzerdrix)
and cmon, imagine playing RoN followed by a Rakdos' Return. feels pretty good
Casting Rakdos' Return in my 5 color lili of the dark realms deck already feels good, and usually wins the game anyway. I'm not talking about getting to her ultimate even, just putting my opponent in topdeck mode against a deck that has a couple of counters is a win most of the time. Once I pump whatever is on the field for all my lands and swing into what is most likely an empty field.
This happens because I'm playing cards like Mutilate, Far//Away, and Griselbrand, cards that do stuff. Most decks win that way, by playing spells with immediate impact on the field, that pretty much always have a similar impact on the field, and can thus answer threats consistently.
Thus the problem with your statement. I run 4 Duress, and 3 Rakdos Return in my deck, not to mention two Lili of the Veil. That is pretty close to a "HAND DISRUPTION" deck. I also run 2 slaughter games maindeck(because it's not hard to guess a good target by the 4th turn right now), and sideboard for 2 more ocasionally. That puts me right in there for hand control. I'd not play this card, because it doesn't do anything I want to do. There are easier ways to get creatures, get mana, or draw cards.
The reason Megrim never caught on wasn't because people don't disrupt hands, disrupting hands always has been, and always will be an excellent strategy for the smart control player. It's that the player who controls hands doesn't want to make his opponent discard them. If you have your opponent on the "I need to play this so it doesn't go away" mindset, then your already winning, and it's time to control. Playing answers, and solid effects, forcing 2 for 1s, this is where you kill the field, and never let up. It's NOT the time to drop a gamble card and wait for your opponent to "give" you creatures, and cards, because playing spells that basically do NOTHING lead to your opponent doing things and winning anyway.
However, this is where Megrim terribly outclasses RoN, because at least Megrim makes it all more threatening. The most successful Megrim decks don't count on Megrim doing lethal damage, because all your opponent has to do to beat that is PLAY SPELLS!!!! RoN isn't even that bad, if I draw a land, it may be worth it to hold on to it, because even if you force me to discard it, then I forced your hand, and if I'm paying attention I'll only do that when you don't need extra mana, when YOUR topdecking. Giving control over to your opponent when your strategy involves CONTROLLING a portion of the game is a counter-productive, and BAD strategy that leads to butt-hurt stupid making fun of people who get frustrated at crap like this. I'm not attacking you for liking a pet card, I'm railing against a card that fails even at achieving what it set out to achieve. I didn't get truly passionately mad about the whole thing until I heard the person explain how he designed it.
I PLAY EDH, and I've played Nath IN EDH, and this card is terrible for a Nath deck. Even at 1 mana(which is what it would have to be to be remotely playable, so that you can take your first turn hopefully dropping this)it is more random than Nath hopes to be. I might consider it out of the sheer fact that there are cards that force discards from everyone, but ONLY at a cheap cost, and only for the possible fourth turn Syphon Mind into hopefully land, but then I'm counting on my opponent helping me out, aren't I. At that point at least I DIDN'T get land??
In the same situation I'm probably just as happy with Liliana's Caress or Megrim, as I just drew 6 cards, and hit everyone for 4 damage. I don't KNOW what RoN did for me, and that is, more often than not, a bad thing. Even in Nath decks, I'd rather go for more utility.
If this card is a common and cost one mana, it'd see fringe Pauper play. It's obviously too complex for common, but hopefully they'll just cost it at one and cross their fingers. It's obviously worthless at more than two mana, and probably not worth it at two.
God, I hope you live nearby because watching you get annihilated by the better (I.e. any) deck will be fun!
My Life from the Loam deck runs Raven's Crime, so I want him to live in MY area, so I can show him how helpful all that mana is when HE doesn't have a hand. I will also love holding land so that he can force me to discard it again and again and again while getting everything to beat him together.
I'm glad he got inspiration, but I'm sad he got it on such a ****ty card.
To be honest, I like RoN a lot, maybie is not te best design, but for sure useful if not evercosted... IDK what are u all raging so much of this card... it has a lot of potential.
Blood in the watering can was going to cost 4CMC or more as at less will be SO OP (I use my city of brass or fetch or pain land and get from graveyard any creature I need... really?)
Consuming contract was maybie the best design, but how much will that cost? BBB? 1BB? 2B? I doubt it cost less than 3CMC, and I'd rather play underworld connections or pyrexian arena instead...
If Revenge Of Necromancy pumps at B, 1B or even BB, will be a very solid enchantment in constructed formats, and it will make control/discard archetype a thing... RoN then return to rackdos = GG, RoN then Sire Of Insanity = GG. IDK why u all are so negative about this card
Oversold Cemetery is incredibly easy to set up, usually stays online once it is online, does not require me to hurt myself, and it is NOT overpowered. I doubt your right about blood in the watering can being an expensive enchantment since it doesn't put the creature on the field and has a trigger your deck has to constantly manipulate.
That Being said, I have stated several times why I don't CARE what RoN costs, it will still be bad. I never have, and never will like cards that give this much gerth to my opponent. He decides how good this card is to you, and sometimes you will get the perfect hand, and your opponent will just deal with it with good choices. It's NEVER a good idea to depend on such cards for wins, and such cards only do anything if you figure out how to manipulate both sides to your advantage.
For example, Desecration Demon CAN be good in a deck with lots of removal since your opponent is giving you MORE removal by tapping it. Similarly Vexing Devil has decent Synergy to Varolz, the Scar Striped since either way you get a cheap powerful creature out of your opponents choice. Even then those cards see, at best, fringe play. This cards "options" are all over the place.
This thread has taken a turn towards the infantile. Not everyone who voted for this card is a moron or a kitchen-table scrub. Some people just thought it was an interesting design. We get it, you don't like Revenge of Necromancy. I didn't vote for it either, but 73% of the voters did, so it's the winner. Get over it. Whining about it isn't going to change anything. Ad hominem attacks aren't going to change anything. A perverse desire to watch the fans of this card get "annihilated" isn't going to change anything. It's time to move on.
"This card doesn't appeal to ME and thus everyone who voted for it is STUPID"
-Every degenerate in this thread that keeps crying.
See, this is not an argument for the card, but you simply insulting detractors. I would love for you to read any of my longer threads on this card and explain to me any appeal to be had.
My intention isn't to insult your intelligence for liking a card, but to bring up the defect in the card itself. This is broken like Jace, the Mind Sculptor but in the opposite direction. The argument coming up is not that "it doesn't appeal so your DUMB" but rather "this does nothing even in decks that would WANT to use it".
That is to say, the common argument is that it doesn't even work terribly well in a discard themed deck because your opponent still determines what it does to a large extent, and a good player will discard to that effect, not letting you have the option you want unless there is just no other way.
It's more distracting considering cost. Liliana's Caress is an uncommon that at 2 mana offers a much more consistent condition to discard, and thus makes us want them to cost this at 1, but that might not be viable to the luck play that throws someone to 4 mana on turn 3 after casting there discard 2 spell, or having an army of 2/2s off of a decent discard trend. They MIGHT cost this as high as 4 since it has a card draw element, and then it just doesn't even compare to Geth's Grimoire .
I think the argument is a functional reprint of Megrim would be easier and more fun to build around.
You know, I feel that some of the discussions on this thread are more important than the cards that were chosen for YmtC. The gap between the casual players and the competitive players is widening to such a wide gap that cards can no longer be printed without one side of the spectrum getting the short end of the stick. WotC should look into this situation from some of the opinions of players who actually understand both perspectives. I was intrigued by some of the comments people had to he whole competitive and casual groups of magic and I hope the guys making these cards would look into the game they have been running for such a long time.
Can't wait to see what the tweaks are on RON. I wanted land to win the battle, but now that RON is the base for whatever card we will ultimately end up with, I think the final tweaking process will either make this card shine, or cause some people to hate it. At least so far, most people are happy with the card. Lets hope WOTC doesn't mess things up. Seriously though, I do want to see how this card is altered. As is, it is casual fun, but I don't see much more. If the 2/2 zombies gain deathtouch, or BB become either BBB or 2 of any one color, or the draw a card becomes exile the top card of your library till you find a non creature non land card then put it into your hand and the rest in your yard, then this card could be an all star.
No matter what happens to this card, it needs to be costed low for it to be useful outside of casual. But even then, casual is a good format that deserves some love. Even if you play professionally, I'm sure you enjoy a casual Timmy game every now and then. It feels good to win with a Aysen Highway, or an Akron Legionnaire.
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All your base are belong to us!
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
Gratz mtg fans. At their closest convenience, dev will use a card slot in a set for a Megrim variant, an enchantment that does literally nothing if either your opponent is playing an all-in strat, or your deck actually starts doing what it's supposed to. Makes me feel better about not submitting my idea. Would have died round 1, probably.
The bad thing is, I get why this won. At least it's one of the functional cards. Not one that's anti-effective, which was about half of them. The top of the bracket, applied for this; and everything that died round 1, thank Ganon.
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Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
The article got updated at some point today to show the percentages. Revenge of Necromancy got 73.4% of the votes. That's a big winning margin, so a lot of people must like the card.
Today we learned that the silent majority are inept players who are bad at playing magic and incapable of evaluating cards.
Today we learned that the silent majority are inept players who are bad at playing magic and incapable of evaluating cards.
Actually, I learned that most players are elitist and care only about what benefits them. I hate this card as much as most of the MTGS community, but you know what...who cares? Let the 74% have their card and I hope they have fun with it. I'll be more than happy to trade them copies of this for the next Boros Reckoner or shockland variant.
Because Blood in the Watering Can wouldn't have been stupidly overcosted and thus unplayable in most formats?
I don't really care who won because I'm certain that Wizards will do something to screw it up.
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If I could "like" or "upvote" you right now, I would.
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Into the Maw of Hell is a name so awesome, it deserves its own song.
It would be about a world of brown spikes and red fire, where men fight and scream and become blurry masses. Then it would change to somber, we learn that this glorious place exists only in Raymond Swanland's head. To visit it, you must enter the maw of Hell itself.
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That's not true. There are plenty of cards that don't really tickle anyone's fancy except ironically. Boring vanilla filler for Limited (Pillarfield Ox) or obnoxiously terrible (Wood Elemental).
Sure, of course. But, if something is both casual-friendly AND good in competitive decks, people usually just say its "good." Only if it's not good in competitive do you typically get people qualifying that judgment by saying "good in EDH" or whatever.
It's not a hard and fast definition, of course, but there's a reason RoN is more casually appealing than, say, Storm Crow.
sigging that last sentence, thanks
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
According to half the people posting here crowing about "suck it spikes," it apparently does.
This is patently untrue. There is an audience for [0]: Win the game. That doesn't mean it deserves to be printed.
It's also a rather significant diversion from my point, which is that "a card a person likes = casual card" is a really ineffective definition. The "competitive/casual" distinction is generally highly overplayed from both sides on MTGS--people who call themselves "competitive" players dump on "casuals," and self-avowed "casual" players malign "competitive" "spikes" for making Magic too expensive or ruining EDH or whatnot. This thread is a perfect example of the intense urge to factionize the game. RoN isn't a victory for "casuals" over "Spikes." It's a victory for "people who like playing discard theme decks" over "people who like recurring creatures from their graveyard." There are casuals on both sides of that debate and it's pretty ridiculous for loudmouths to subsume the debate for an off-topic flame war.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
In reality this card will be unplayable anywhere. After playing with it, you will take it out of your Warped Devotion deck and replace it with a set of Geth's Grimoire, and it will be a huge improvement.
For those of you who do want to like this card, don't worry. They'll probably tweak it a bit.
Short of pre-releases and the occasional store draft I'm a kitchen table player these days. I voted for the other card. I also happen to have a number of Lifetime Pro Points under my belt from many moons ago when I had time to do that sort of thing.
Kitchen table players are not necessarily morons.
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
Casting Rakdos' Return in my 5 color lili of the dark realms deck already feels good, and usually wins the game anyway. I'm not talking about getting to her ultimate even, just putting my opponent in topdeck mode against a deck that has a couple of counters is a win most of the time. Once I pump whatever is on the field for all my lands and swing into what is most likely an empty field.
This happens because I'm playing cards like Mutilate, Far//Away, and Griselbrand, cards that do stuff. Most decks win that way, by playing spells with immediate impact on the field, that pretty much always have a similar impact on the field, and can thus answer threats consistently.
Thus the problem with your statement. I run 4 Duress, and 3 Rakdos Return in my deck, not to mention two Lili of the Veil. That is pretty close to a "HAND DISRUPTION" deck. I also run 2 slaughter games maindeck(because it's not hard to guess a good target by the 4th turn right now), and sideboard for 2 more ocasionally. That puts me right in there for hand control. I'd not play this card, because it doesn't do anything I want to do. There are easier ways to get creatures, get mana, or draw cards.
The reason Megrim never caught on wasn't because people don't disrupt hands, disrupting hands always has been, and always will be an excellent strategy for the smart control player. It's that the player who controls hands doesn't want to make his opponent discard them. If you have your opponent on the "I need to play this so it doesn't go away" mindset, then your already winning, and it's time to control. Playing answers, and solid effects, forcing 2 for 1s, this is where you kill the field, and never let up. It's NOT the time to drop a gamble card and wait for your opponent to "give" you creatures, and cards, because playing spells that basically do NOTHING lead to your opponent doing things and winning anyway.
However, this is where Megrim terribly outclasses RoN, because at least Megrim makes it all more threatening. The most successful Megrim decks don't count on Megrim doing lethal damage, because all your opponent has to do to beat that is PLAY SPELLS!!!! RoN isn't even that bad, if I draw a land, it may be worth it to hold on to it, because even if you force me to discard it, then I forced your hand, and if I'm paying attention I'll only do that when you don't need extra mana, when YOUR topdecking. Giving control over to your opponent when your strategy involves CONTROLLING a portion of the game is a counter-productive, and BAD strategy that leads to butt-hurt stupid making fun of people who get frustrated at crap like this. I'm not attacking you for liking a pet card, I'm railing against a card that fails even at achieving what it set out to achieve. I didn't get truly passionately mad about the whole thing until I heard the person explain how he designed it.
I PLAY EDH, and I've played Nath IN EDH, and this card is terrible for a Nath deck. Even at 1 mana(which is what it would have to be to be remotely playable, so that you can take your first turn hopefully dropping this)it is more random than Nath hopes to be. I might consider it out of the sheer fact that there are cards that force discards from everyone, but ONLY at a cheap cost, and only for the possible fourth turn Syphon Mind into hopefully land, but then I'm counting on my opponent helping me out, aren't I. At that point at least I DIDN'T get land??
In the same situation I'm probably just as happy with Liliana's Caress or Megrim, as I just drew 6 cards, and hit everyone for 4 damage. I don't KNOW what RoN did for me, and that is, more often than not, a bad thing. Even in Nath decks, I'd rather go for more utility.
My Life from the Loam deck runs Raven's Crime, so I want him to live in MY area, so I can show him how helpful all that mana is when HE doesn't have a hand. I will also love holding land so that he can force me to discard it again and again and again while getting everything to beat him together.
I'm glad he got inspiration, but I'm sad he got it on such a ****ty card.
-Every degenerate in this thread that keeps crying.
I voted for black
I voted for RoN all the way up.
I suppose I am of the extreme minority that is actually looking forward to playing this card.
Although until we know the CMC and see what wizards means by "tweaking" the abilities I find this tidal wave of tears to be rather amusing.
My Collection & Tradelist
My EDH Cube: 960 Cards, Fully Foiled and Pimped
CUBE TUTOR
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
Oversold Cemetery is incredibly easy to set up, usually stays online once it is online, does not require me to hurt myself, and it is NOT overpowered. I doubt your right about blood in the watering can being an expensive enchantment since it doesn't put the creature on the field and has a trigger your deck has to constantly manipulate.
That Being said, I have stated several times why I don't CARE what RoN costs, it will still be bad. I never have, and never will like cards that give this much gerth to my opponent. He decides how good this card is to you, and sometimes you will get the perfect hand, and your opponent will just deal with it with good choices. It's NEVER a good idea to depend on such cards for wins, and such cards only do anything if you figure out how to manipulate both sides to your advantage.
For example, Desecration Demon CAN be good in a deck with lots of removal since your opponent is giving you MORE removal by tapping it. Similarly Vexing Devil has decent Synergy to Varolz, the Scar Striped since either way you get a cheap powerful creature out of your opponents choice. Even then those cards see, at best, fringe play. This cards "options" are all over the place.
See, this is not an argument for the card, but you simply insulting detractors. I would love for you to read any of my longer threads on this card and explain to me any appeal to be had.
My intention isn't to insult your intelligence for liking a card, but to bring up the defect in the card itself. This is broken like Jace, the Mind Sculptor but in the opposite direction. The argument coming up is not that "it doesn't appeal so your DUMB" but rather "this does nothing even in decks that would WANT to use it".
That is to say, the common argument is that it doesn't even work terribly well in a discard themed deck because your opponent still determines what it does to a large extent, and a good player will discard to that effect, not letting you have the option you want unless there is just no other way.
It's more distracting considering cost. Liliana's Caress is an uncommon that at 2 mana offers a much more consistent condition to discard, and thus makes us want them to cost this at 1, but that might not be viable to the luck play that throws someone to 4 mana on turn 3 after casting there discard 2 spell, or having an army of 2/2s off of a decent discard trend. They MIGHT cost this as high as 4 since it has a card draw element, and then it just doesn't even compare to Geth's Grimoire .
I think the argument is a functional reprint of Megrim would be easier and more fun to build around.
No matter what happens to this card, it needs to be costed low for it to be useful outside of casual. But even then, casual is a good format that deserves some love. Even if you play professionally, I'm sure you enjoy a casual Timmy game every now and then. It feels good to win with a Aysen Highway, or an Akron Legionnaire.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
The bad thing is, I get why this won. At least it's one of the functional cards. Not one that's anti-effective, which was about half of them. The top of the bracket, applied for this; and everything that died round 1, thank Ganon.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Today we learned that the silent majority are inept players who are bad at playing magic and incapable of evaluating cards.
Actually, I learned that most players are elitist and care only about what benefits them. I hate this card as much as most of the MTGS community, but you know what...who cares? Let the 74% have their card and I hope they have fun with it. I'll be more than happy to trade them copies of this for the next Boros Reckoner or shockland variant.
Or, that the simple majority don't give a damn what you think is good.
EDH is a CASUAL format. Get with the program, or GTFO.
I don't really care who won because I'm certain that Wizards will do something to screw it up.