Why do people keep bringing up "arguments" like "they made no promises"? We aren't complaining they LIED to us, we are complained they made this or that decision that some of us believe is BAD. No, they didn't promise to keep the secondary market in mind, they didn't promise 36-pack boxes, they didn't promise regular booster price, they didn't promise a big print run, they didn't promise no mythics, or "[card] won't be Mythic", we are merely criticizing announcements and spoilers as they come.
I mean, what do some of you guys respond when your boss says your work was bad, or your teacher wants to talk about your bad grades, or your mom wants to know why your room is a mess? "Sorry, I didn't promise that"?
Not once, in this thread or ever, I complained about something "just because", or responded assuming we were entitled to anything. Your comment is pointless and just annoying.
Modern was created to be the Eternal format of choice - the one Wizards can sculpt, enforce, improve, etc. Legacy couldn't, because of the Reserve List. If it's the Eternal format they want us to play, we need to have the cards. It's as simple as that. When most of the good Modern decks start with 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Dark Confidant and these cards are up to $100 each, players just won't get into the new format no matter how fun it is. They need to reprint these cards, not as a "gift" to us, but as a way to reach their goal of making Modern a hit. They created the format, and they want the format to be very popular. We didn't ask for it - in fact, personally, I miss Extended (the real one) a LOT.
And they chose to give us our Modern staples in a set where the booster box has 24 packs, the packs are worth twice as much as a regular pack, the printing is limited - reasons why a MM box can be preordered, right now, for as much as $300, which is almost 3x the price of a normal box. On top of everything, the $100 cards every Modern player needs 4 copies of, are Mythic. When a player shells out $300 (or less, if lucky) for a 24-pack box, what are the chances they'll open even ONE Goyf/Bob? Pretty darn slim.
I couldn't care less, really, because Magic thankfully has many cool formats. But if they want me - and you, and everyone else - to join Modern en masse, they need to make the cards affordable. This doesn't mean they have to be dirt cheap - no, I don't want $2 Goyfs, if that's what you're implying with your remark - but this means the cards need to be way closer in availability to Standard than Legacy.
And so far it doesn't look Modern Masters is going in that direction.
It's a lot easier to err on the side of caution here. If they do this print run and determine availability is still too scarce then they will do additional print runs of these cards in future MM sets. If they go overboard right off the bat they can tank the value. If they gradually reprint them over time they can control the price drops gracefully.
Reading the article from the mothership Maher seems kind of bitter to have this reprinted with new art. All good things must come to an end....I bought my modern masters booster box for 186$. Which is better than most people, and I hope I get atleast my moneys worth on the possible 3-4 mythics / rares.
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I'll also point out again that the print runs on these isn't going to be like FTV or Commander's Arsenal. There are going to be multiple print runs of this set. It's not a one and done printing. They won't be printing them as much as they print regular sets, but it's not a single print run like FTV.
Which is exactly the problem: A 24-shot gamble at the Modern machine costs 50% more than 4 jackpots. How is this a good way to lower the entry bar to Modern? Bobs and Goyfs are going to cost what, 20-30 dollars less per playset after MM? I don't expect their prices to change much when the new product is as elusive as Commander's Arsenal.
That was my point, actually. I completely agree with you. Wizards is good defeating the purpose of their own supplemental products by making them limited print runs.
Umm, the art on the original is awful. Those two (sorry to whoever bob is), are incredibly ugly, the color scheme runs together, and really fails to capture the overall epicness of this card because it's so boring.
New arts awesome. Flavor, color, everything.
EDIT: How do people not get what flavor here? How often do royal advisor's hold the crown?
The concept on the art is amazing on this one. the flavor is oozing.
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Disappointing, but totally expected. When I heard about Modern Masters I really had hopes that it would open up another format to me, but I see now that it's the same false hope that Commander's Arsenal provided.
Mythic rarity on the most expensive cards is a joke. It's not even a blatant cash grab because these boxes would still completely sell out even if Goyf/Bob were rares. It's just Wizards using the card's iconic status to justify a rarity that allows them to say "See? We reprinted them! We're trying to help!" without actually doing anything to help the supply. They do this so that the people who think that Eternal formats should be the "cool kids" club where you can't play unless you're a big $$ "investor" don't get upset.
Goyf and Bob aren't worthy of Mythic Rare status. There is nothing 'mythic' about them. They have just become so iconic and 'legendary' among players, there is an illusion of them being mythic. But they're not.
I'll also point out again that the print runs on these isn't going to be like FTV or Commander's Arsenal. There are going to be multiple print runs of this set. It's not a one and done printing. They won't be printing them as much as they print regular sets, but it's not a single print run like FTV.
That was my point, actually. I completely agree with you. Wizards is good defeating the purpose of their own supplemental products by making them limited print runs.
I have a feeling that this product is going to be printed a lot more than people expected. Wizards has stated that MM is supposed to "reduce scarcity". If they're intending to reduce the scarcity of cards like Bob and Goyf, they know better than anyone that producing them on an FTV-scale won't do anything.
I sincerely doubt the latter print runs of MM will go for nearly $300, and if they do it will be solely the product of price memory.
The point is - Bob and Goyf are reprinted as mythics not because they do something extremely special, but to move packs. It's like reprinting Ravnica dual as mythic would feel. Modern Masters as a drafting set and as a reprint set does not need mythic rarity at all. All mythic cards there are a pure moneygrab.
Hitting the nail right on the head here. Why does a set, entirely made of reprints, meant for drafting need cards to be bumped to Mythic? It's unnecessary for the stated purpose of the set.
Can't wait to see the new Mythic Clique. Mythic Thoughseize! Mythic in MM basically means money card it would seem. Which is sad because it will not add enough of these staples to the existing pool to bring down the price. If the price doesn't come down, people (still) won't be able to get into Modern. If people aren't able to get into Modern, then what is the point of this?
I like the art, especially how he is phasing out the Throne.... It's cool. So with Bob spoiled, do you guys/gals think every money card will probably be placed at mythic?
I'm excpecting every money card will be at mythic WITH NEW ART to help maintain the value of the originals
Why do people keep bringing up "arguments" like "they made no promises"? We aren't complaining they LIED to us, we are complained they made this or that decision that some of us believe is BAD. No, they didn't promise to keep the secondary market in mind, they didn't promise 36-pack boxes, they didn't promise regular booster price, they didn't promise a big print run, they didn't promise no mythics, or "[card] won't be Mythic", we are merely criticizing announcements and spoilers as they come.
I mean, what do some of you guys respond when your boss says your work was bad, or your teacher wants to talk about your bad grades, or your mom wants to know why your room is a mess? "Sorry, I didn't promise that"?
So far, 3 Invitational cards have been reprinted. All at rare. Bob is going to be the first one at Mythic.
The problem here is that you're the only one who is 100% sure Dark Confidant should be Mythic, when in fact every single example from the past suggests otherwise.
I mean, one can argue that Dark Confidant is Mythic-worthy for this or that reason, but you are acting like everyone that thinks he should be Rare again is stupid and wrong, when in fact we are the ones using past history right.
Anyone who this the mythics in this set aren't the high value cards is nuts. Spoiler: cryptic command, vendilion clique and thoughtseize will be mythic.
I like it that it has new art (does it matter which one I like better?) because my old one still maintains its value. I'm after the collector's value, not the financial value, as I have no plans of selling it. Even more so because the original art is Bob himself.
As for the mythic issue, I have to agree it does have a mythic feel to it.
Thoughtseize will not be mythic. It is a powerful discard spell, and its price got WILDLY out of hand. It can easily be reprinted in any standard set, and, while the 'gold standard' for discard, is still a discard spell.
Clique will be mythic because it is a powerful blue legend.
Bob and Goyf are mythic because they are both too powerful to be reprinted in standard. They are now 'golden standards' that other cards seek to emulate, but can't come close to being as strong as.
The Modern Masters article says as much about Goyf, we can be SURE they feel the same about Bob.
I wonder how many fits will be had when MaRo previews doubling season as a mythic next week?
If you can't read and understand that article then there's nothing I can do to help you. "card availability" is "card prices" anyway.
I read it and i understand what they said, not what is implied and interpreted. Card prices and card availability aren't equal. Some people will simply pay more for a card because they value it more. Key word is "value."
I mean, one can argue that Dark Confidant is Mythic-worthy for this or that reason, but you are acting like everyone that thinks he should be Rare again is stupid and wrong, when in fact we are the ones using past history right.
I feel obligated to point out that just because that's the way it's always been is one of the worst possible reasons to do something, and the folks at Wizards seem well aware of that.
Please show me where they said they were printing cards to tackle prices, and not quote they said they wanted to tackle card availability.
But, again, tackling card availability is tackling the price problem. If they say "We want cards to be more readily available to players, so we're printing more of them," what they're essentially saying is "We want the cards to be cheaper, so people can more easily afford them."
All cards are "available" if you're willing to pay the price. Making a card more available means printing more of it, which makes it less scarce, which lowers the price.
In a nutshell, making a card more available means making it cheaper by printing more copies of it.
Not once, in this thread or ever, I complained about something "just because", or responded assuming we were entitled to anything. Your comment is pointless and just annoying.
Modern was created to be the Eternal format of choice - the one Wizards can sculpt, enforce, improve, etc. Legacy couldn't, because of the Reserve List. If it's the Eternal format they want us to play, we need to have the cards. It's as simple as that. When most of the good Modern decks start with 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Dark Confidant and these cards are up to $100 each, players just won't get into the new format no matter how fun it is. They need to reprint these cards, not as a "gift" to us, but as a way to reach their goal of making Modern a hit. They created the format, and they want the format to be very popular. We didn't ask for it - in fact, personally, I miss Extended (the real one) a LOT.
And they chose to give us our Modern staples in a set where the booster box has 24 packs, the packs are worth twice as much as a regular pack, the printing is limited - reasons why a MM box can be preordered, right now, for as much as $300, which is almost 3x the price of a normal box. On top of everything, the $100 cards every Modern player needs 4 copies of, are Mythic. When a player shells out $300 (or less, if lucky) for a 24-pack box, what are the chances they'll open even ONE Goyf/Bob? Pretty darn slim.
I couldn't care less, really, because Magic thankfully has many cool formats. But if they want me - and you, and everyone else - to join Modern en masse, they need to make the cards affordable. This doesn't mean they have to be dirt cheap - no, I don't want $2 Goyfs, if that's what you're implying with your remark - but this means the cards need to be way closer in availability to Standard than Legacy.
And so far it doesn't look Modern Masters is going in that direction.
Nice, a well thought out argument unlike your first post, which was just outright whining.
Still MM boxes can be had for $225 through several vendors. Why use $300 for the baseline when that's clearly not true? It's not cheap, but it's a large % cheaper than 300.
Also, there are still too many conclusions being jumped to when not ll the information is out there. What if the set becomes decently available upon release? What if vendors get more boxes than initially thought upon their 2nd allocation? What if secondary market prices drop an actual significant percentage after release?
There's no reason for all this bad tempered complaining and negative speculation when we have a small fraction of the facts (not aimed at you in particular, this is in general).
But, again, tackling card availability is tackling the price problem. If they say "We want cards to be more readily available to players, so we're printing more of them," what they're essentially saying is "We want the cards to be cheaper, so people can more easily afford them."
All cards are "available" if you're willing to pay the price. Making a card more available means printing more of it, which makes it less scarce, which lowers the price.
TL;DR: Making a card more available means making it cheaper.
No, it means more people can play the format.
Which means that the demand will stay the same.
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I feel obligated to point out that just because that's the way it's always been is one of the worst possible reasons to do something, and the folks at Wizards seem well aware of that.
I know that. Which is why I said that we could always discuss on a card-by-card basis in order to identify which Invitational card should be Mythic, but the one thing we have that we can use as reference is the past, and so far all our invitational reprints have been Rare. It was not *delusional* to expect Bob as a Rare in MM, even if extremely unlikely. But some people are acting like "meh there's no way it could be anything BUT Mythic" and yes, there are reasons why it could be Rare, the main one being past history.
The guy I quoted even explicitly said that "Invitational cards are Mythic because they are famous cards that represent a player", while not a single Invitational card has been Mythic, and Snapcaster Mage is recent enough that it could've been Mythic if that was the baseline - but it's not.
I know that. Which is why I said that we could always discuss on a card-by-card basis in order to identify which Invitational card should be Mythic, but what we have to use as reference is the past, and so far all our invitational reprints have been Rare. It was not *delusional* to expect Bob as a Rare in MM, even if extremely unlikely. But some people are acting like "meh there's no way it could be anything BUT Mythic" and yes, there are reasons why it could be Rare, the main one being past history.
No other invitational card (aside from SCM) is as widely played as bob. (And far more SCMs were printed than Bobs...)
No other invitational card is too powerful to reprint for standard.
It doesn't matter that bob is or isn't an invitational card when looking at what makes it mythic.
It matters that the effect on the card is too powerful for standard, and cards have been printed at rare that try to emulate it but are worse, and one card with the effect that hits both players is mythic.
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I mean, what do some of you guys respond when your boss says your work was bad, or your teacher wants to talk about your bad grades, or your mom wants to know why your room is a mess? "Sorry, I didn't promise that"?
It's a lot easier to err on the side of caution here. If they do this print run and determine availability is still too scarce then they will do additional print runs of these cards in future MM sets. If they go overboard right off the bat they can tank the value. If they gradually reprint them over time they can control the price drops gracefully.
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
[Commander] Rafiq of the Many (Tier 1)
[Commander] Marchesa, the Black Rose (Tier 1)
[Commander] Five Color Artifacts (Tier 2)
I'll also point out again that the print runs on these isn't going to be like FTV or Commander's Arsenal. There are going to be multiple print runs of this set. It's not a one and done printing. They won't be printing them as much as they print regular sets, but it's not a single print run like FTV.
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
That was my point, actually. I completely agree with you. Wizards is good defeating the purpose of their own supplemental products by making them limited print runs.
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The concept on the art is amazing on this one. the flavor is oozing.
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Mythic rarity on the most expensive cards is a joke. It's not even a blatant cash grab because these boxes would still completely sell out even if Goyf/Bob were rares. It's just Wizards using the card's iconic status to justify a rarity that allows them to say "See? We reprinted them! We're trying to help!" without actually doing anything to help the supply. They do this so that the people who think that Eternal formats should be the "cool kids" club where you can't play unless you're a big $$ "investor" don't get upset.
Goyf and Bob aren't worthy of Mythic Rare status. There is nothing 'mythic' about them. They have just become so iconic and 'legendary' among players, there is an illusion of them being mythic. But they're not.
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This is a very good point.
I have a feeling that this product is going to be printed a lot more than people expected. Wizards has stated that MM is supposed to "reduce scarcity". If they're intending to reduce the scarcity of cards like Bob and Goyf, they know better than anyone that producing them on an FTV-scale won't do anything.
I sincerely doubt the latter print runs of MM will go for nearly $300, and if they do it will be solely the product of price memory.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Please show me where they said they were printing cards to tackle prices, and not quote they said they wanted to tackle card availability.
Hitting the nail right on the head here. Why does a set, entirely made of reprints, meant for drafting need cards to be bumped to Mythic? It's unnecessary for the stated purpose of the set.
Can't wait to see the new Mythic Clique. Mythic Thoughseize! Mythic in MM basically means money card it would seem. Which is sad because it will not add enough of these staples to the existing pool to bring down the price. If the price doesn't come down, people (still) won't be able to get into Modern. If people aren't able to get into Modern, then what is the point of this?
I'm excpecting every money card will be at mythic WITH NEW ART to help maintain the value of the originals
True enough. I can stand by that.
No, read it for yourself.
If you can't read and understand that article then there's nothing I can do to help you. "card availability" is "card prices" anyway.
Anyone who this the mythics in this set aren't the high value cards is nuts. Spoiler: cryptic command, vendilion clique and thoughtseize will be mythic.
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As for the mythic issue, I have to agree it does have a mythic feel to it.
Clique will be mythic because it is a powerful blue legend.
Bob and Goyf are mythic because they are both too powerful to be reprinted in standard. They are now 'golden standards' that other cards seek to emulate, but can't come close to being as strong as.
The Modern Masters article says as much about Goyf, we can be SURE they feel the same about Bob.
I wonder how many fits will be had when MaRo previews doubling season as a mythic next week?
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I read it and i understand what they said, not what is implied and interpreted. Card prices and card availability aren't equal. Some people will simply pay more for a card because they value it more. Key word is "value."
I feel obligated to point out that just because that's the way it's always been is one of the worst possible reasons to do something, and the folks at Wizards seem well aware of that.
Erm, did YOU read the article? Nowhere in the article you linked to do they say they are trying to reduce the prices on cards.
All cards are "available" if you're willing to pay the price. Making a card more available means printing more of it, which makes it less scarce, which lowers the price.
In a nutshell, making a card more available means making it cheaper by printing more copies of it.
Nice, a well thought out argument unlike your first post, which was just outright whining.
Still MM boxes can be had for $225 through several vendors. Why use $300 for the baseline when that's clearly not true? It's not cheap, but it's a large % cheaper than 300.
Also, there are still too many conclusions being jumped to when not ll the information is out there. What if the set becomes decently available upon release? What if vendors get more boxes than initially thought upon their 2nd allocation? What if secondary market prices drop an actual significant percentage after release?
There's no reason for all this bad tempered complaining and negative speculation when we have a small fraction of the facts (not aimed at you in particular, this is in general).
No, it means more people can play the format.
Which means that the demand will stay the same.
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I know that. Which is why I said that we could always discuss on a card-by-card basis in order to identify which Invitational card should be Mythic, but the one thing we have that we can use as reference is the past, and so far all our invitational reprints have been Rare. It was not *delusional* to expect Bob as a Rare in MM, even if extremely unlikely. But some people are acting like "meh there's no way it could be anything BUT Mythic" and yes, there are reasons why it could be Rare, the main one being past history.
The guy I quoted even explicitly said that "Invitational cards are Mythic because they are famous cards that represent a player", while not a single Invitational card has been Mythic, and Snapcaster Mage is recent enough that it could've been Mythic if that was the baseline - but it's not.
No other invitational card (aside from SCM) is as widely played as bob. (And far more SCMs were printed than Bobs...)
No other invitational card is too powerful to reprint for standard.
It doesn't matter that bob is or isn't an invitational card when looking at what makes it mythic.
It matters that the effect on the card is too powerful for standard, and cards have been printed at rare that try to emulate it but are worse, and one card with the effect that hits both players is mythic.
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