Preorders just opened up for Modern Masters and it's not looking good. 18 boxes is the limit through WPN. Stores may get additional amounts through regular distribution.
Yep I can confirm Advanced level stores get 18 boxes from wizards, not sure if it is the same or less for Core level. Gotta LOL at the people who said my store gets 250 boxes
Ok, since it's sealed, if at least 3000 players attend, that's 18,000 booster packs, at 15 cards per pack, that's 270,000 Modern Masters cards JUST for running the tournament, add in Prize support and you've got yourself a HUGE print run right there.
Now, if only I can get a bunch of people to travel to vegas... HEE HEE
Also, drafting MM, i'd always take the Goyf, it's still bonkers even in limited, lol. I think it's a given, take the rare/mythic in your pack for MM...
You think that is a huge print run?
Beta had 7.6 million cards printed.
Will this be sold at places like target? I am sure its been mentioned before but I think I have missed it
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Will this be sold at places like target? I am sure its been mentioned before but I think I have missed it
No. It's WPN distribution like exiled.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Wow, another thing that will not be sold at MSRP. Most of the FTV go for $100-200 around here and don't get me started on Commanders arsenal which went for about $400. I betting these packs will be sold for $15 easy day 1.
Yep I can confirm Advanced level stores get 18 boxes from wizards, not sure if it is the same or less for Core level. Gotta LOL at the people who said my store gets 250 boxes
Goddamnit- that's ridiculous.
Does Wizards have a job opening in Product Planning?
I'm pretty sure a braindead iguana could do a better job with distribution choices
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Melek, Izzet Paragon Oona, Queen of the Fae Bruna, Light of Alabaster Gisela, Blade of Goldnight Rhys the Redeemed Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord Sen Triplets The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Does Wizards have a job opening in Product Planning?
I'm pretty sure a braindead iguana could do a better job with distribution choices
i take offense to that.I work with Edward. Sure, his work is usually sloppy and stained with fecal matter and strawberry juice, but damn it he's doing the best he can. We were all surprised, braindeqd iguana's job security is protected by the Constitution.
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I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
Everyone assuming that these will be sold for over MSRP are forgetting we only know 2 cards in the set right now. Every time we see something like duel decks everyone starts jumping and shouting about what cards will be auto-includes etc. and then the lists come out and they are terrible. Although this is Modern Masters, they still have to fill out an entire set AND make it limited playable. If this wasn't designed to be drafted I'm sure it would be filled with all stars, but because it has to be designed with draft in mind we could see a lot of trash in the set that forces value down.
tl;dr we don't even know what will be in this set except for 2 cards, the set might not be as valuable as everyone is anticipating.
Everyone assuming that these will be sold for over MSRP are forgetting we only know 2 cards in the set right now. Every time we see something like duel decks everyone starts jumping and shouting about what cards will be auto-includes etc. and then the lists come out and they are terrible. Although this is Modern Masters, they still have to fill out an entire set AND make it limited playable. If this wasn't designed to be drafted I'm sure it would be filled with all stars, but because it has to be designed with draft in mind we could see a lot of trash in the set that forces value down.
tl;dr we don't even know what will be in this set except for 2 cards, the set might not be as valuable as everyone is anticipating.
I think you are forgetting a few things.
The packs are priced more than normal packs BECAUSE of the cards in the set, and there is a foil in every pack.
Many, if not most, modern "all-stars" are not limited-breaking cards.
Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, Bob are not cards that break limited.
Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow...which would be mythic if they are in here...are acceptable as mythics.
Also, this limited format is much different than others, I think they already confirmed (which is awkward due to recent bans) that the components to make storm work in limited will be in the set.
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Well I am confident Goyf will be in every MM if it becomes a yearly thing.
That way they can gradually flood the market, lowering its price over the span of a few years instead of plummeting it.
I agree with this. It's the easiest way to put more out there without drastically reducing prices.
Well I am confident Goyf will be in every MM if it becomes a yearly thing.
That way they can gradually flood the market, lowering its price over the span of a few years instead of plummeting it.
It isn't going to be a yearly thing though.
They will be doing it every 3-4 years, if anything.
And the next version lets them reprint a wider range of cards (Zendikar-Probably Theros block), so there isn't much reason to 'save' any cards for a later edition.
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Even FtV sets contain crappy cards. Wizards won't put too much value in MM, especially as they have to be careful to repeat Chronicles. There will be a lot of crappy cards, regardless of limited.
Think of it as a normal set, so we shall have the usual variety of worth for cards, from 5 cents to $100.
1. Increase the availability of scarce (and thus expensive) Modern cards for the healthy of the format.
2. Not to increase the availability so much that card prices crash (repeat of Chronicles).
3. Be Modern Limited draftable.
Given that, I see know reason to believe there will be "a lot of crappy cards" in MM. WotC doesn't need to reprint such cards because there are plenty available that nobody is playing. The only "crappy" cards I see likely to be reprinted are staple commons in Modern that are needed to support a draft pool. Beyond that, what are the valuable commons they could reprint? Darkness, Daze, Lava Spike, Relic of Progenitus, Cranial Plating, Serum Visions, Manamorphose, maybe even Rancor again... I wouldn't call these crap!
You can be sure virtually every Uncommon and Rare are going to be money cards because those are the cards WotC wants to reprint precisely for that reason. But because supply is limited, those cards are going to be worth at least as much as their current versions, if not more, at least for a while. And once WotC sees the effect on prices, they're going to want to do a new MM every two years at least, just to cover more recent sets rotating in and other cards they may have missed, as well as continuing to reprint most of the ones they had in the previous MM because those cards will still be valuable.
If you think MM is going to be another Chronicles with a lot of crappy cards, feel free to sell me your MM boosters for $2.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
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Chronicles and crappy cards are 2 separate points.
Also, Wizards is still a business and needs to make money. From a game standpoint it isn't needed to reprint crappy cards, but it's not like Wizards has never chosen business over game.
If all reprints without exception are staples, wouldn't the value of the average booster be much than the price?
I'm not sure your first point is really relevant. I mean, I assume it costs WotC next to nothing to print a card. They could print Black Lotus for $1 each and still make money. They make the same amount of money whether it's a cheap card or an expensive card. The only variable is, are the cards printed attractive enough to get the desired level of customers at a given price point?
In the sense of opportunity cost, it means MM should be at least, if not more, profitable than another Planechase or Archenemy release in those slots. Given as those are not nearly as popular as what MM is offering, I'd say they're pretty secure with that. But again, their goal is also to ensure the long-term viability of Modern, so they have to consider the cost of *not* doing a release like MM in the long run.
Anyway, getting back to the point: since most boosters are commons, and I conceded that a lot of cheap commons have to be provided to support a draft format, that limits how much the premium cards can add to a booster. That said, the boosters are already more expensive than regular boosters. The real question is are the boosters undervalued. I'd say no, because there's no reason for WotC to reprint crappy Uncommons and Rares and Mythics, because those don't help the health of Modern. So yeah, I think those are all going to be, if not staples, cards that maintain a high price simply because they haven't been reprinted. And we know that MM isn't going to be heavily printed, so we're talking more about stopping prices on cards from continuing to skyrocket instead of depressing them.
From a ROI at release price perspective, MM is the surest thing since WWK.
Yeah I guess we won't get one next year as the success of Commander meant we would get the next ones in 2 years.
The next MM will be in 2 years I guess then =)
Commander products will be released yearly, they won't be 'summer multiplayer' releases.
But there is no way this set is going to be on any normal sort of release schedule.
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Chronicles and crappy cards are 2 separate points.
Fear of recreating Chronicles is unfounded and from a practical point of view is impossible. The numbers of cards that would need to be printed for that to happen would be astronomical, and to bring it up as a fear simply clouds the issue with red herring arguments and indicates a lack of understanding of what really happened with Chronicles.
But there is no way this set is going to be on any normal sort of release schedule.
And what's your rationale for that? He's the counter-argument. The goal of MM is to prevent skyrocketing prices of Modern cards. Right now, it's a supply problem: many desirable modern cards were only printed once, so there aren't enough to go around. So, you reprint those, at the very least stabilizing prices. But you restrict it so cards from the last 3 blocks are not included. That's 6 blocks worth of cards included.
Now, fast forward 2 years. Now you've got 5 blocks of Modern that still need reprints. And you've got cards you probably missed the first time around. And as new sets rotate in, many new cards have gone up in price that you didn't reprint before, so you gotta reprint those, too. And you've got cards from the first MM that still haven't stabilized in price, because you printing them at Mythic Rare (Tarmogoyf). Even if you restrict yourself to not reprinting stuff from the last few blocks, that's still plenty of cards for another release.
Fast forward 2 more years, okay maybe your pool of non-reprinted cards that people care about is a lot thinner. But guess what? Right now Magic's number of players has tripled since Alara. So in that 4 years since the first MM, it's tripled again! That means that your demand side has also gone up; in fact, if Modern is the eternal format you're pushing as a company ahead of others, then it's probably even more popular. So you still have to reprint all the same cards you reprinted before just to keep up with growing demand!
Bottom line: If MM makes WotC money, and they think it's beneficial to Modern, they'll release it at least every 2 years. And there's a good argument to release every year if you actually want to lower prices.
"Business with a long-term plan" is implied of course. It doesn't make sense to cash in on $1 Black Lotusi. It doesn't make sense to print all the goodies in this MM and have nothing spicy to reprint in potential later products.
Restricted list aside, why doesn't it make sense? Because they can sell a $1000 Black Lotus? By that logic, it doesn't make sense to reprint Tarmogoyf at all. Or any Fetchland. But they are. They do. They do this for the health of the game.
All this MM needs to include is enough juice to ensure it'll be sold out. It doesn't have to be juicer than that. And it can contain a bunch of crap and still be sold out.
You're confusing it with other premium products. That's not this. This product isn't just a vehicle to make money; IT IS TO HELP MODERN. That means it can't contain "a bunch of crap" that doesn't help Modern.
Not at all, those are targeted at completely different audiences.
Yes at all, because we're talking about opportunity costs. Product management. How many offerings your company can handle putting out to the customers. That's limited bandwidth, so you have to make your releases count.
Giving every player a free playset of fetch and shocks helps the health of modern, but does not help the health of Wizards as a business. Wizards is not a charity. The health of Modern is not the be-all end-all.
You're arguing a straw man. The health of Modern *is the point of the release*. But you're correct that it also has to make money, BUT ONLY AT LEAST AS MUCH MONEY AS WHATEVER ELSE YOU WERE GOING TO RELEASE INSTEAD. Beyond that, there's no point in printing crap.
Modern needs a lot of reprinting to stay healthy.
Reprints cannot flood the market to keep the secondary market healthy.
Gradual releases is the way to go. Maybe not on any set-in-stone schedule, but I'll be very surprised if 2 years from now we don't have another Masters set.
Finally you're talking sense. Yes, I'd say every 2 years at least.
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You think that is a huge print run?
Beta had 7.6 million cards printed.
According to http://www.crystalkeep.com/magic/misc/rarity-info.php your math would mean that the number of cards opened at the GP would equal the number of Revised Underground Seas in existence.
I still don't understand why this thread is in the rumor mill, because nothing within it is a rumor.
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for he is the messenger between the spheres
and the traveler between the realms of the living and the dead.
He shall summon forth the ancient ones
and wake them from their deathly slumber
then shall the elder signs be shattered.
Trade Thread
No. It's WPN distribution like exiled.
Goddamnit- that's ridiculous.
Does Wizards have a job opening in Product Planning?
I'm pretty sure a braindead iguana could do a better job with distribution choices
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
i take offense to that.I work with Edward. Sure, his work is usually sloppy and stained with fecal matter and strawberry juice, but damn it he's doing the best he can. We were all surprised, braindeqd iguana's job security is protected by the Constitution.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
tl;dr we don't even know what will be in this set except for 2 cards, the set might not be as valuable as everyone is anticipating.
I think you are forgetting a few things.
The packs are priced more than normal packs BECAUSE of the cards in the set, and there is a foil in every pack.
Many, if not most, modern "all-stars" are not limited-breaking cards.
Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, Bob are not cards that break limited.
Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow...which would be mythic if they are in here...are acceptable as mythics.
Also, this limited format is much different than others, I think they already confirmed (which is awkward due to recent bans) that the components to make storm work in limited will be in the set.
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I agree with this. It's the easiest way to put more out there without drastically reducing prices.
It isn't going to be a yearly thing though.
They will be doing it every 3-4 years, if anything.
And the next version lets them reprint a wider range of cards (Zendikar-Probably Theros block), so there isn't much reason to 'save' any cards for a later edition.
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I'd rather go buy a Moat, even if I don't have any use for it.
Think of it as a normal set, so we shall have the usual variety of worth for cards, from 5 cents to $100.
1. Increase the availability of scarce (and thus expensive) Modern cards for the healthy of the format.
2. Not to increase the availability so much that card prices crash (repeat of Chronicles).
3. Be Modern Limited draftable.
Given that, I see know reason to believe there will be "a lot of crappy cards" in MM. WotC doesn't need to reprint such cards because there are plenty available that nobody is playing. The only "crappy" cards I see likely to be reprinted are staple commons in Modern that are needed to support a draft pool. Beyond that, what are the valuable commons they could reprint? Darkness, Daze, Lava Spike, Relic of Progenitus, Cranial Plating, Serum Visions, Manamorphose, maybe even Rancor again... I wouldn't call these crap!
You can be sure virtually every Uncommon and Rare are going to be money cards because those are the cards WotC wants to reprint precisely for that reason. But because supply is limited, those cards are going to be worth at least as much as their current versions, if not more, at least for a while. And once WotC sees the effect on prices, they're going to want to do a new MM every two years at least, just to cover more recent sets rotating in and other cards they may have missed, as well as continuing to reprint most of the ones they had in the previous MM because those cards will still be valuable.
If you think MM is going to be another Chronicles with a lot of crappy cards, feel free to sell me your MM boosters for $2.
MM includes cards from Alara block and before so relic is possible.
A little late lol, sorry everyone is getting in your face.
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Decks:
Standard:
WBWb Weenie/Almost Orzhov AggroWB
UWUW ControlUW
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlUWR
I'm not sure your first point is really relevant. I mean, I assume it costs WotC next to nothing to print a card. They could print Black Lotus for $1 each and still make money. They make the same amount of money whether it's a cheap card or an expensive card. The only variable is, are the cards printed attractive enough to get the desired level of customers at a given price point?
In the sense of opportunity cost, it means MM should be at least, if not more, profitable than another Planechase or Archenemy release in those slots. Given as those are not nearly as popular as what MM is offering, I'd say they're pretty secure with that. But again, their goal is also to ensure the long-term viability of Modern, so they have to consider the cost of *not* doing a release like MM in the long run.
Anyway, getting back to the point: since most boosters are commons, and I conceded that a lot of cheap commons have to be provided to support a draft format, that limits how much the premium cards can add to a booster. That said, the boosters are already more expensive than regular boosters. The real question is are the boosters undervalued. I'd say no, because there's no reason for WotC to reprint crappy Uncommons and Rares and Mythics, because those don't help the health of Modern. So yeah, I think those are all going to be, if not staples, cards that maintain a high price simply because they haven't been reprinted. And we know that MM isn't going to be heavily printed, so we're talking more about stopping prices on cards from continuing to skyrocket instead of depressing them.
From a ROI at release price perspective, MM is the surest thing since WWK.
Commander products will be released yearly, they won't be 'summer multiplayer' releases.
But there is no way this set is going to be on any normal sort of release schedule.
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Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
And what's your rationale for that? He's the counter-argument. The goal of MM is to prevent skyrocketing prices of Modern cards. Right now, it's a supply problem: many desirable modern cards were only printed once, so there aren't enough to go around. So, you reprint those, at the very least stabilizing prices. But you restrict it so cards from the last 3 blocks are not included. That's 6 blocks worth of cards included.
Now, fast forward 2 years. Now you've got 5 blocks of Modern that still need reprints. And you've got cards you probably missed the first time around. And as new sets rotate in, many new cards have gone up in price that you didn't reprint before, so you gotta reprint those, too. And you've got cards from the first MM that still haven't stabilized in price, because you printing them at Mythic Rare (Tarmogoyf). Even if you restrict yourself to not reprinting stuff from the last few blocks, that's still plenty of cards for another release.
Fast forward 2 more years, okay maybe your pool of non-reprinted cards that people care about is a lot thinner. But guess what? Right now Magic's number of players has tripled since Alara. So in that 4 years since the first MM, it's tripled again! That means that your demand side has also gone up; in fact, if Modern is the eternal format you're pushing as a company ahead of others, then it's probably even more popular. So you still have to reprint all the same cards you reprinted before just to keep up with growing demand!
Bottom line: If MM makes WotC money, and they think it's beneficial to Modern, they'll release it at least every 2 years. And there's a good argument to release every year if you actually want to lower prices.
Restricted list aside, why doesn't it make sense? Because they can sell a $1000 Black Lotus? By that logic, it doesn't make sense to reprint Tarmogoyf at all. Or any Fetchland. But they are. They do. They do this for the health of the game.
You're confusing it with other premium products. That's not this. This product isn't just a vehicle to make money; IT IS TO HELP MODERN. That means it can't contain "a bunch of crap" that doesn't help Modern.
Yes at all, because we're talking about opportunity costs. Product management. How many offerings your company can handle putting out to the customers. That's limited bandwidth, so you have to make your releases count.
You're arguing a straw man. The health of Modern *is the point of the release*. But you're correct that it also has to make money, BUT ONLY AT LEAST AS MUCH MONEY AS WHATEVER ELSE YOU WERE GOING TO RELEASE INSTEAD. Beyond that, there's no point in printing crap.
And crap Uncommons and Rares won't make it "Very Nice" so that's why there won't be many crap Uncommons and Rares.
Finally you're talking sense. Yes, I'd say every 2 years at least.