I was just thinking how this set was designed to be "draftable" not a gold mine for Modern cards. (i.e. No WotC employee has said this is the Modern subsidy kit people wanted Commander decks to be.) The Bat token indicates we're getting one or all of these cards: http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22black+Bat+creature+token%22&v=scan&s=color. Additionally, there's an image on the announcement page for what is clearly City of Brass. So the question becomes, is $7/pack (or 200%+ higher based on how my LGS plans on selling these things for being limited to two boxes per store) really worth it for any of these cards?:
Sengir Nosferatu
Skeletal Vampire
City of Brass
Sorry, what bat token? Maybe we can update the OP with new information because 82 pages is not what I had in mind as a bit of light reading before work... Or perhaps the mods could create a [MM] Compiled Info thread???
I was just thinking how this set was designed to be "draftable," not a gold mine for Modern cards.
They probably made it so that it won't be a gold mine (good thing so collectors and merchants won't hoard it) but with enough content so price just stabilize.
So, buy a case and trade or buy the cards you need, same difference...
Sorry, what bat token? Maybe we can update the OP with new information because 82 pages is not what I had in mind as a bit of light reading before work... Or perhaps the mods could create a [MM] Compiled Info thread???
For starters, there's a bunch of new art in the set. There will be tokens in the pack, several of which have never existed in paper before (Bat token, anyone?).
No vendor will even consider selling these at MSRP of course, instead selling them at least around $320 (current eBay prices) or higher.
Vendors online currently selling through ebay will be the highest this product will ever be till it is out of print. The speculation on the print run is what is driving the price currently. They have said it won't be a regular print run IE it won't be obtainable for an entire 2 years, and that is really all they have said. No one can really tell you the exact price of a box, but I would imagine we'll find them less than MSRP like most boxes of magic.
Vendors online currently selling through ebay will be the highest this product will ever be till it is out of print. The speculation on the print run is what is driving the price currently. They have said it won't be a regular print run IE it won't be obtainable for an entire 2 years, and that is really all they have said. No one can really tell you the exact price of a box, but I would imagine we'll find them less than MSRP like most boxes of magic.
I don't think it'll last 2 years but it may last 15 months or so like a core set. Even that is probably a lot but I do agree once the set comes out the prices will normalize because dealers can get enough to satisfy demand.
In my opinion it doesn't mean there will certainly be bat makers in the set, it could be a way to get casual players to buy packs to try and score the cool new tokens.
I really hope we get a Kaldra token, it sucks that it was MTGO-only.
I don't think it'll last 2 years but it may last 15 months or so like a core set. Even that is probably a lot but I do agree once the set comes out the prices will normalize because dealers can get enough to satisfy demand.
Honestly I don't think it will even be around as long as a core set. Why would they say limited if it would be? My guess would be the typical first print run of a large set only... Maybe a second print run but that would be the max.
This set will also be very popular I think. It wont be a sure fire goldmine but it will be popular. I know Ben Bleiweiss's (from SCG) said he would be surprised if this ever sold for under MSRP. I tend to agree but this is largely based on my opinion of the print runs I said above.
Vendors online currently selling through ebay will be the highest this product will ever be till it is out of print. The speculation on the print run is what is driving the price currently. They have said it won't be a regular print run IE it won't be obtainable for an entire 2 years, and that is really all they have said. No one can really tell you the exact price of a box, but I would imagine we'll find them less than MSRP like most boxes of magic.
Actually, my LGS has indications from the distributor that MTGMM will be as limited as Commander's Arsenal. Take that with a grain of salt as an unconfirmed rumor of course.
Actually, my LGS has indications from the distributor that MTGMM will be as limited as Commander's Arsenal. Take that with a grain of salt as an unconfirmed rumor of course.
I don't think it will be that limited. It is meant to be a draft set, and getting 1-3 boxes per store is extremely limited (more so than FTV) which would mean that it could only be drafted 1-3 times per store. That does not sound right. I would think that stores would at least get an initial order of 10-20 boxes so that it could be drafted for at least a month or so (1-2 drafts a week with 1 box equally 1 draft). With prize support, you would need at least 12 or so boxes to draft a month.
I don't think it will be that limited. It is meant to be a draft set, and getting 1-3 boxes per store is extremely limited (more so than FTV) which would mean that it could only be drafted 1-3 times per store. That does not sound right. I would think that stores would at least get an initial order of 10-20 boxes so that it could be drafted for at least a month or so (1-2 drafts a week with 1 box equally 1 draft). With prize support, you would need at least 12 or so boxes to draft a month.
Unfortunately,it doesn't matter whether that sounds right or not.
WotC will consider the risk of overprinting or stores' complaints, so even if they said "You can enjoy drafting!",they may reprint very little boxes.
Of course,I also think they should reprint enough....
Actually, my LGS has indications from the distributor that MTGMM will be as limited as Commander's Arsenal. Take that with a grain of salt as an unconfirmed rumor of course.
Your store owner is speaking from ignorance then because there is no way for him to know; he is speculating like everyone else out there. If Wotc says it is there to draft and there is a major event around drafting it. It will not be anywhere near as rare as commanders arsenal. I can say that assuredly, however the length of the print run is something I can not really speak to as I stated it will not be printed for 2 years like a standard set (Which is what they stated), but they have stated it will be available for drafting which means it could not even be as rare case wise as even FTV. Meaning each store should get more than 20 cases where available. Now that may mean they only get 25 per store, but that is still better than the doom and gloom some people are claiming. None of us know, but I can put your mind at ease as it will not be as rare as the commanders if they came out and said it is designed to be drafted.
Your store owner is speaking from ignorance then because there is no way for him to know; he is speculating like everyone else out there. If Wotc says it is there to draft and there is a major event around drafting it. It will not be anywhere near as rare as commanders arsenal. I can say that assuredly, however the length of the print run is something I can not really speak to as I stated it will not be printed for 2 years like a standard set (Which is what they stated), but they have stated it will be available for drafting which means it could not even be as rare case wise as even FTV. Meaning each store should get more than 20 cases where available. Now that may mean they only get 25 per store, but that is still better than the doom and gloom some people are claiming. None of us know, but I can put your mind at ease as it will not be as rare as the commanders if they came out and said it is designed to be drafted.
Sadly i have to say i agree with "the store owner" because i can relate, i did some "fishing" when i did a big weekly order along with some pre-order for gatecrash, i tried to tag on 10cases of MM or a date when i could "knowing i couldn't" my answer back went something like this, We don't have an allocation number at this time however we would like to advise you from taking pre-orders on this product of any nature and refrain from promising to sell anyone a box, we do not know if it will be a limited a print run as commander or allow limited restock, we might also reserve this stock to events. I was then called back later and again told NOT to take pre-ordeers or promise box's of this at all.
People, please reread the article. Just because the set was designed to be draftable doesn't mean that it is meant to be a weekly draft format in stores while it is around.
in fact if you do read the article Forsythe say this:
*A* box for *A* draft...if you ask nicely.
everyone is overestimating what this set is going to be (and misunderstaning what it is intended to be - a set to hype modern and nothing more) and you are all going to be very disapointed.
He throws out a couple different statements that contradict each other through out that article. The size is going to be numbers that you're shocked to find extra a couple days later and not weeks later IMO though.
This speculation of the scarcity is just going to make people buy and hoard it even more. Glad Vegas GP is the week of my bday
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Saying that you sometimes wish people (in this case the implication is the staff) would fall down a well and get AIDS is hardly appropriate for the forum.
No one knows how rare this will be; it is all baseless speculation. Distributors know the same that we do right now. As such, I would also have recommended against allowing preorders, especially this far out. Distributors will get their allocations (And thus stores will get their allocations) usually no more than 3 months out. The set is over 6 months away, so we have a ways to go still. If anyone claims to know more, they're probably just a liar or attention whore.
Yes, everybody is going to be very disappointed, and the hype will backfire horribly. It's not far fetched that many people will quit magic if this doesn't help with prices of staples at all.
LOL, what? That is extremely far fetched. I dare say that is one of the most ignorant concepts I have seen, in fact. This is a set of all reprints that is not replacing a normal set. It is not standard legal, and it is replacing a throwaway multiplayer product. Players will not quit the game because of the price of Modern (Which you can play for less than Standard, fwiw), and they will not quit the game over being able to buy booster packs full of money when the alternative could have been Archenemy 2. (Seriously, is that what you want?)
Worst case scenario, it's as if this product never existed. You know, making the release schedule like every other year.
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It's going to be a small print run, we know that; wizards is telling us from the get-go that this is going to be scarce. As unfortunate as it may be for the overall health and longevity of the game, it's the decision they've chosen to make. They want to hype Modern while not significantly upsetting collectors. Chronicles was bad news for Wizards and they're clearly overcautious with "reprint only" expert expansions now. The conservative print run is unfortunate. I would much rather have more product available, but that's not the case and it's probably best to accept that now and attempt to purchase a few packs when this is eventually released.
Pure guess - I expect that it will be similar to initial print run of core set with no second printing. It will still disappear quickly but add enough volume to temporarily decrease some of the staple costs. The savings will be offset by rise in the nonreprinted staples partially due to increased Modern participation. Then we do this again in 2-3 yrs.
No one knows how rare this will be; it is all baseless speculation. Distributors know the same that we do right now. As such, I would also have recommended against allowing preorders, especially this far out. Distributors will get their allocations (And thus stores will get their allocations) usually no more than 3 months out. The set is over 6 months away, so we have a ways to go still. If anyone claims to know more, they're probably just a liar or attention whore.
What i was told was straight from a WPN rep, though it was again just vague info from a early fishing attempt at any info being told not to make a reserve list or to take any pre-orders took me back, as someone who got 5 commanders arsenals and was told take a reserve list on them.......before numbers....
I for see something like limited cases each week based on store level, product will be for core/advanced support stores only with a push to run events with it.
No one knows how rare this will be; it is all baseless speculation. Distributors know the same that we do right now. As such, I would also have recommended against allowing preorders, especially this far out. Distributors will get their allocations (And thus stores will get their allocations) usually no more than 3 months out. The set is over 6 months away, so we have a ways to go still. If anyone claims to know more, they're probably just a liar or attention whore.
LOL, what? That is extremely far fetched. I dare say that is one of the most ignorant concepts I have seen, in fact. This is a set of all reprints that is not replacing a normal set. It is not standard legal, and it is replacing a throwaway multiplayer product. Players will not quit the game because of the price of Modern (Which you can play for less than Standard, fwiw), and they will not quit the game over being able to buy booster packs full of money when the alternative could have been Archenemy 2. (Seriously, is that what you want?)
Worst case scenario, it's as if this product never existed. You know, making the release schedule like every other year.
I do enjoy 60 card casual multiplayer. I feel it is one of those things that has gone by the wayside because of 'cost of cards i only need 1 of anything' Commander and other factors. I feel Archenemy and Planeschase were probably 10 years too late, but I really enjoyed playing them. And I hope they continue eventually (even if it is even further between releases, like Modern Masters, Archenemy, Modern Masters 2, Planeschase).
As for everything else though, I agree. It is way too early to "know" what they are planning for this. The best assumption that I can come up with is that it will feel like a normal set release for about a month then it will dry up. People will be able to get boxes, draft it, buy singles for it. It will be easily obtainable for about a month maybe two but after that it'll dry up and be a lot more scarce.
They are likely going to have the largest NA GP EVER using this product. I can't believe it is going to be so scarce that you can't get it to at least practice with it.
That being said, the more interest this drives in Modern means the prices of "staples" are likely to stay the same rise or lose very little value. Any value they lose, makes up for it from more events (FNM, potentially a SCG Open style event, more GPs). They only way for a format to grow is if people are able to acquire cards "easily". This is the best way for them to do that to be respectful to everyone involved. As well as, they can print any card from Masques forward in anything/anytime they want.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
This should not be a product that will be extremely limited. I understand that collector's have a large voice but to me, it should be more about getting cards in the range so more people can play the game. Obviously it is a tight rope to walk and the are being cautious with it. The easiest solution is to do a relatively big print run and only that print run and then see what happens. They still have the ability to put these cards in other products too to get them available.
If they didn't do a product like this, interest in Modern would have fizzled as it would soon have comparable costs to Legacy. If this set is über-limited, people will lose interest again.
Modern is nowhere near Legacy prices, and never will be. The manabase alone will make sure of that.
I'm worried what the actual packs will sell for if they make this a really limited print run. Commanders Arsenal MSRP's for $75 and sells for $200, a 2.6 multiplier. If MM is just as limited a print run and goes for a similar multiplier, that's over $18 a pack, and most retailers would probably bump it up to $20 a pack. Which defeats the purpose of MM. And with MM prize support, what would a draft cost, $80-ish a player? Which means it's pay $80 to open a Gofy or lose. Why not just buy a Goyf of eBay for that price.
This set SHOULD stem the ever rising prices of staples. Yes TarmTarm will stay high, but it shouldn't get higher now that the amount of them available should at least double (if not more) .
If Wotc printed tarmogoyfs and sold them for $100 apiece, they could triple the number of goyfs and the price would stay the same.
This is how WotC should've supported Legacy back in the day, but they didn't so they've learned and are attempting to make it better. There is no reserved list for Modern legal cards, so no one can complain if something gets reprinted.
No wotc should have just got rid of the reserve list and just made normal reprints, failing that they should have printed cards the compete with/obsolete cards on the reserve list.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Modern is a lot closer to Legacy in price than you may know. Lack of funds has spawned a multitude of COMPETITIVE decks that can be had for sub-$500. Jund costs more than that
4 Underground Sea + 4 Polluted Delta alone is ~$750. That buys a multitude of T1 Modern decks. Or 8 lands of a Legacy deck. Add in FoW and you are over $1000 for 12 cards.
The Legacy mana base is heinously expensive. Duals are going to average, what, 75 bucks a pop? You can get Shocklands for less than $10. Not to mention the most expensive cards in Modern (Gofy, Bob) are also played in Legacy.
I have a lot of Legacy Staples, but am missing the duals. Just the mana base alone has convinced me to abandon Legacy as a format and adopt Modern.
If I don't have Goyf, I can still play almost every top Modern Deck. Without Duals, I can play, what, RDW and Dredge? That's not a very wide open format.
The cost of entry for Legacy is just to high, and it's not going to go down. While I think it's silly that WoTC basically created an entire new format instead of getting rid of the RL, thats what they did.
0% chance of fetchland reprints in regular sets while shocks are standard legal. You can run 4 5 colors now before Gatecrash. May have 5 color aggro soon.
0% chance of fetchland reprints in regular sets while shocks are standard legal. You can run 4 5 colors now before Gatecrash. May have 5 color aggro soon.
I don't understand WoTC's stance on that. It's not like we don't have Farseek or Gatecreeper Vine or allied and enemy duals or Transguild Promenade or all the shocks (soon) or gates or keyrunes. We have truckloads of mana fixing available now, how would having fetchs be so over the line?
Seems like an arbitrary speed limit: Going 55? No problem, have a nice day! Going 56? OMG get off the road you psycho!!!
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Sorry, what bat token? Maybe we can update the OP with new information because 82 pages is not what I had in mind as a bit of light reading before work... Or perhaps the mods could create a [MM] Compiled Info thread???
They probably made it so that it won't be a gold mine (good thing so collectors and merchants won't hoard it) but with enough content so price just stabilize.
So, buy a case and trade or buy the cards you need, same difference...
Per the original announcement article from Aaron Forsythe:
Vendors online currently selling through ebay will be the highest this product will ever be till it is out of print. The speculation on the print run is what is driving the price currently. They have said it won't be a regular print run IE it won't be obtainable for an entire 2 years, and that is really all they have said. No one can really tell you the exact price of a box, but I would imagine we'll find them less than MSRP like most boxes of magic.
I don't think it'll last 2 years but it may last 15 months or so like a core set. Even that is probably a lot but I do agree once the set comes out the prices will normalize because dealers can get enough to satisfy demand.
I really hope we get a Kaldra token, it sucks that it was MTGO-only.
Honestly I don't think it will even be around as long as a core set. Why would they say limited if it would be? My guess would be the typical first print run of a large set only... Maybe a second print run but that would be the max.
This set will also be very popular I think. It wont be a sure fire goldmine but it will be popular. I know Ben Bleiweiss's (from SCG) said he would be surprised if this ever sold for under MSRP. I tend to agree but this is largely based on my opinion of the print runs I said above.
Actually, my LGS has indications from the distributor that MTGMM will be as limited as Commander's Arsenal. Take that with a grain of salt as an unconfirmed rumor of course.
I don't think it will be that limited. It is meant to be a draft set, and getting 1-3 boxes per store is extremely limited (more so than FTV) which would mean that it could only be drafted 1-3 times per store. That does not sound right. I would think that stores would at least get an initial order of 10-20 boxes so that it could be drafted for at least a month or so (1-2 drafts a week with 1 box equally 1 draft). With prize support, you would need at least 12 or so boxes to draft a month.
Unfortunately,it doesn't matter whether that sounds right or not.
WotC will consider the risk of overprinting or stores' complaints, so even if they said "You can enjoy drafting!",they may reprint very little boxes.
Of course,I also think they should reprint enough....
Your store owner is speaking from ignorance then because there is no way for him to know; he is speculating like everyone else out there. If Wotc says it is there to draft and there is a major event around drafting it. It will not be anywhere near as rare as commanders arsenal. I can say that assuredly, however the length of the print run is something I can not really speak to as I stated it will not be printed for 2 years like a standard set (Which is what they stated), but they have stated it will be available for drafting which means it could not even be as rare case wise as even FTV. Meaning each store should get more than 20 cases where available. Now that may mean they only get 25 per store, but that is still better than the doom and gloom some people are claiming. None of us know, but I can put your mind at ease as it will not be as rare as the commanders if they came out and said it is designed to be drafted.
Sadly i have to say i agree with "the store owner" because i can relate, i did some "fishing" when i did a big weekly order along with some pre-order for gatecrash, i tried to tag on 10cases of MM or a date when i could "knowing i couldn't" my answer back went something like this, We don't have an allocation number at this time however we would like to advise you from taking pre-orders on this product of any nature and refrain from promising to sell anyone a box, we do not know if it will be a limited a print run as commander or allow limited restock, we might also reserve this stock to events. I was then called back later and again told NOT to take pre-ordeers or promise box's of this at all.
take that how u will.
i was also "naughty /or/ nice" this year....
He throws out a couple different statements that contradict each other through out that article. The size is going to be numbers that you're shocked to find extra a couple days later and not weeks later IMO though.
Standard
W.I.P.
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You have received a warning at MTG Salvation Forums.
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Saying that you sometimes wish people (in this case the implication is the staff) would fall down a well and get AIDS is hardly appropriate for the forum.
I have 28 different EDH decks
LOL, what? That is extremely far fetched. I dare say that is one of the most ignorant concepts I have seen, in fact. This is a set of all reprints that is not replacing a normal set. It is not standard legal, and it is replacing a throwaway multiplayer product. Players will not quit the game because of the price of Modern (Which you can play for less than Standard, fwiw), and they will not quit the game over being able to buy booster packs full of money when the alternative could have been Archenemy 2. (Seriously, is that what you want?)
Worst case scenario, it's as if this product never existed. You know, making the release schedule like every other year.
Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded.
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What i was told was straight from a WPN rep, though it was again just vague info from a early fishing attempt at any info being told not to make a reserve list or to take any pre-orders took me back, as someone who got 5 commanders arsenals and was told take a reserve list on them.......before numbers....
I for see something like limited cases each week based on store level, product will be for core/advanced support stores only with a push to run events with it.
pure speculation...
I do enjoy 60 card casual multiplayer. I feel it is one of those things that has gone by the wayside because of 'cost of cards i only need 1 of anything' Commander and other factors. I feel Archenemy and Planeschase were probably 10 years too late, but I really enjoyed playing them. And I hope they continue eventually (even if it is even further between releases, like Modern Masters, Archenemy, Modern Masters 2, Planeschase).
As for everything else though, I agree. It is way too early to "know" what they are planning for this. The best assumption that I can come up with is that it will feel like a normal set release for about a month then it will dry up. People will be able to get boxes, draft it, buy singles for it. It will be easily obtainable for about a month maybe two but after that it'll dry up and be a lot more scarce.
They are likely going to have the largest NA GP EVER using this product. I can't believe it is going to be so scarce that you can't get it to at least practice with it.
That being said, the more interest this drives in Modern means the prices of "staples" are likely to stay the same rise or lose very little value. Any value they lose, makes up for it from more events (FNM, potentially a SCG Open style event, more GPs). They only way for a format to grow is if people are able to acquire cards "easily". This is the best way for them to do that to be respectful to everyone involved. As well as, they can print any card from Masques forward in anything/anytime they want.
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Modern is nowhere near Legacy prices, and never will be. The manabase alone will make sure of that.
I'm worried what the actual packs will sell for if they make this a really limited print run. Commanders Arsenal MSRP's for $75 and sells for $200, a 2.6 multiplier. If MM is just as limited a print run and goes for a similar multiplier, that's over $18 a pack, and most retailers would probably bump it up to $20 a pack. Which defeats the purpose of MM. And with MM prize support, what would a draft cost, $80-ish a player? Which means it's pay $80 to open a Gofy or lose. Why not just buy a Goyf of eBay for that price.
If Wotc printed tarmogoyfs and sold them for $100 apiece, they could triple the number of goyfs and the price would stay the same.
No wotc should have just got rid of the reserve list and just made normal reprints, failing that they should have printed cards the compete with/obsolete cards on the reserve list.
I think the problem is the card values will not drop that much, because wotc is more intent on ringing every penny out of modern they can.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
4 Underground Sea + 4 Polluted Delta alone is ~$750. That buys a multitude of T1 Modern decks. Or 8 lands of a Legacy deck. Add in FoW and you are over $1000 for 12 cards.
The Legacy mana base is heinously expensive. Duals are going to average, what, 75 bucks a pop? You can get Shocklands for less than $10. Not to mention the most expensive cards in Modern (Gofy, Bob) are also played in Legacy.
I have a lot of Legacy Staples, but am missing the duals. Just the mana base alone has convinced me to abandon Legacy as a format and adopt Modern.
If I don't have Goyf, I can still play almost every top Modern Deck. Without Duals, I can play, what, RDW and Dredge? That's not a very wide open format.
The cost of entry for Legacy is just to high, and it's not going to go down. While I think it's silly that WoTC basically created an entire new format instead of getting rid of the RL, thats what they did.
I don't understand WoTC's stance on that. It's not like we don't have Farseek or Gatecreeper Vine or allied and enemy duals or Transguild Promenade or all the shocks (soon) or gates or keyrunes. We have truckloads of mana fixing available now, how would having fetchs be so over the line?
Seems like an arbitrary speed limit: Going 55? No problem, have a nice day! Going 56? OMG get off the road you psycho!!!