[FAKE] Varolz, the Scar-Striped

  • #535
    Quote from Vertain
    I honestly can't understand all the fuss going on about the templating of a card that has a reasonable chance to even be fake.

    Especially if the templating is perfectly legit.

    As others stated before, this is a static ability. Regeneration is indeed a replacement effect.

    to the rules junkies: You should know that static abilities and replacement effects can occur, work or stop working right during resolving a spell or a state-based action.

    Now, let's look at said ability. It says:

    "If this would be destroyed, regenerate it and put a +1/+1 counter on it."

    First of all, there is no 'instead' at the end, so this ability clearly isn't replacing ANYTHING. This means that his destruction in not replaced, it's just preceded by the regeneration and the counter. This means, that, everytime he would be destroyed, he gets a regeneration shield and a counter and the shield is consumed instantly, preventing his death. There are no redundancies. Also: If something that doesn't let him regenerate would kill him, he dies with the counter, since effects always try to do as much as they can. This can cumulate into the following awkward situation: Varolz has 1 damage marked on him and no counters. He then gets hit by Incinerate. His Static ability grants him a regeneration shield and a counter. Then his shield fails at stopping his death and he dies of lethal damage WITHOUT having lethal damage, because his destruction was never replaced in the first place.

    That's actually a bad example. If he has 1 damage and gets 3 more, he has 4 damage marked on him, but he'll get that counter before state based effects check, so he'll have 5 toughness. It's not like they check until the ability is finished and someone would get priority.
    MTG Rules Advisor
  • #536
    If this does end up being fake, this troll should reveal himself to receive a well-deserved round of applause.

    Great card, though-provoking design. 36 pages. Tremendous!

    ~M
  • #537
    Just for posterity's sake, I'm going to call this fake now, before we find out the truth. Will be fun to review my predictions after the set comes out. It's a fakerinousky.
  • #538
    In a week or two we will find out JUST WHO AROUND HERE IS BEING TROLLED
  • #539
    Quote from flaming infinity
    That's actually a bad example. If he has 1 damage and gets 3 more, he has 4 damage marked on him, but he'll get that counter before state based effects check, so he'll have 5 toughness. It's not like they check until the ability is finished and someone would get priority.


    It looks like a fine example.

    Incinerate resolves, state-based actions are checked for, and
    Varolz, the Scar-Striped has four damage marked on him and and can't regenerate. The state-based action for lethal damage destroys him. The +1/+1 counter part of the ability comes next, but because Incinerate's effect stopped regeneration, Varolz was destroyed.
  • #540
    Quote from Tearlach
    It looks like a fine example.

    Incinerate resolves, state-based actions are checked for, and
    Varolz, the Scar-Striped has four damage marked on him and and can't regenerate. The state-based action for lethal damage destroys him. The +1/+1 counter part of the ability comes next, but because Incinerate's effect stopped regeneration, Varolz was destroyed.


    I believe that would be the case if it said "Regenerate it, then put a +1/+1 counter on it." As written, however, no part of the ability "comes next"--they occur as one event.
    This space for rent.
  • #541
    That example was intentional.

    It happens as follows:

    Incinerate just finished resolving. State-based actions are checked and see a Varolz with exactly lethal damage on him, so he's getting destroyed. But just right before that, his static effect kicks in and gives him a regeneration shield and a counter. Then his destruction finally occurs and his regeneration shield can't stop it. He dies as a 5/5 creature with 4 damage marked on him.

    If his effect would say ...regenerate him instead, he would get the counter, the shield and, because his destruction has been replaced, survives to see another set of state-based actions. He then is a 5/5 with 4 damage on him that can't regenerate for the rest of the turn and, unless he is tempted to get deathtouch, will survive.
    Last edited by Vertain: 4/3/2013 6:42:41 PM
  • #542
    we do have disintegrate from m14 that's coming out that will kill this creature it does kill regeration creature.

    thanks for the awsome image http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663! Smile


    proud member of the Spirit Of EDH
  • #543
    Quote from Vertain
    That example was intentional.

    It happens as follows:

    Incinerate just finished resolving. State-based actions are checked and see a Varolz with exactly lethal damage on him, so he's getting destroyed. But just right before that, his static effect kicks in and gives him a regeneration shield and a counter. Then his destruction finally occurs and his regeneration shield can't stop it. He dies as a 5/5 creature with 4 damage marked on him.

    If his effect would say ...regenerate him instead, he would get the counter, the shield and, because his destruction has been replaced, survives to see another set of state-based actions. He then is a 5/5 with 4 damage on him that can't regenerate for the rest of the turn and, unless he is tempted to get deathtouch, will survive.


    How the heck does a 5/5 with only 4 damage marked on it die? I'd suspect it would survive, just like this example:

    An infamous Tarmogoyf gets Lightning Bolted while only a land (e.g. Verdant Catacombs) and a sorcery (e.g. Serum Visions) are in the graveyard. Thus, the Goyf is a 2/3 while Bolt is on the stack. When Bolt finishes resolving, it is in the graveyard, then state-based actions are checked and sees that Goyf is now a 3/4 (thanks, Bolt the instant). Goyf survives as a 3/4 with 3 damage marked on it.
  • #544
    Quote from Lectrys
    How the heck does a 5/5 with only 4 damage marked on it die? I'd suspect it would survive, just like this example:

    An infamous Tarmogoyf gets Lightning Bolted while only a land (e.g. Verdant Catacombs) and a sorcery (e.g. Serum Visions) are in the graveyard. Thus, the Goyf is a 2/3 while Bolt is on the stack. When Bolt finishes resolving, it is in the graveyard, then state-based actions are checked and sees that Goyf is now a 3/4 (thanks, Bolt the instant). Goyf survives as a 3/4 with 3 damage marked on it.

    when varolz gets the counter he is already dying he has got the lethal damage and if he cant regenerate then he will die.
    like he got the conditions to get destroyed - he is being destroyed then he got a +1/+1 counter and a reg shield but he can't be reg so he gets destroyed.
    about Kalonian Hydra
    Quote from Georg51
    Then you have to make a fool of yourself by suggesting that I would ever lose to you playing this soon-to-be junk Mythic.
  • #545
    Quote from leslak
    when varolz gets the counter he is already dying he has got the lethal damage and if he cant regenerate then he will die.
    like he got the conditions to get destroyed - he is being destroyed then he got a +1/+1 counter and a reg shield but he can't be reg so he gets destroyed.


    But, Varolz (assuming the card is 100% correct) was about to be destroyed because he had 4 damage on him. Then the replacement effect starting with "If" kicks in and puts on a regeneration shield and a +1/+1 counter. After the replacement effect resolves, Varolz is now a 5/5 and should not die to 4 damage.

    Now, if he got Terminated instead, Varolz is toast.
  • #546
    Quote from Vertain
    That example was intentional.

    It happens as follows:

    Incinerate just finished resolving. State-based actions are checked and see a Varolz with exactly lethal damage on him, so he's getting destroyed. But just right before that, his static effect kicks in and gives him a regeneration shield and a counter. Then his destruction finally occurs and his regeneration shield can't stop it. He dies as a 5/5 creature with 4 damage marked on him.

    If his effect would say ...regenerate him instead, he would get the counter, the shield and, because his destruction has been replaced, survives to see another set of state-based actions. He then is a 5/5 with 4 damage on him that can't regenerate for the rest of the turn and, unless he is tempted to get deathtouch, will survive.

    As far as I can find, replacement effects all use the word instead other than damage prevention. Most likely, assuming the card is real, it's a templating change to save a word. They're really big on chopping unnecessary complexity and that has meant shortening text before. I don't think instead is ever used other than replacement effects so they could remove it from the game since the card reads just fine without it.

    In all likelyhood, the ability is a new template replacement effect so the destruction is replaced by both regenerating and the +1/+1 counter. In that case, Terminate actually can't kill it because it still reads, "if it would be destroyed, put a +1/+1 counter on it [instead]." Grin Weird corner cases like Tatterkite would die if they had that ability, though, since it can't get counters or regenerate in that case. That actually makes the regenerate nearly irrelevant and pretty much only there for flavor (since it is a troll) Obviously, that doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, but sometimes the Magic rules end up being really bizarre in corner cases.
    MTG Rules Advisor
  • #547
    Quote from Lectrys
    But, Varolz (assuming the card is 100% correct) was about to be destroyed because he had 4 damage on him. Then the replacement effect starting with "If" kicks in and puts on a regeneration shield and a +1/+1 counter. After the replacement effect resolves, Varolz is now a 5/5 and should not die to 4 damage.

    Now, if he got Terminated instead, Varolz is toast.

    704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.

    701.6. Destroy #
    701.6a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard. #
    701.6b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed." #
    701.6c A regeneration effect replaces a destruction event. See rule 701.12, "Regenerate." #

    if he can't be regenerated (by Incinerate) once it gets its lethal damage it is destroyed neither the +1/+1 counter nor the regeneration shield replace varolz beign destroyed

    EDIT:
    If this is real i will abuse hin with Pestilence in EDH kkk
    Last edited by leslak: 4/3/2013 10:35:10 PM
    about Kalonian Hydra
    Quote from Georg51
    Then you have to make a fool of yourself by suggesting that I would ever lose to you playing this soon-to-be junk Mythic.
  • #548
    Honestly, this will probably be addressed in the FAQ when he comes out, but I think I lean towards the "he'll die as a 5/5 with four damage on him", though I can see the argument that he'll die before he gets the +1/+1 counter. I don't think lethal damage checks both before and after it's been modified, though this is the first time they've had to define it.
    Commander Deck:WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
  • #549
    Quote from wallycaine
    Honestly, this will probably be addressed in the FAQ when he comes out, but I think I lean towards the "he'll die as a 5/5 with four damage on him", though I can see the argument that he'll die before he gets the +1/+1 counter. I don't think lethal damage checks both before and after it's been modified, though this is the first time they've had to define it.

    If he doesn't die as a 5/5 with 4 damage then the other possiblity (which I'm fairly certain is wrong) is that he lives because of the +1/+1 counter. The regenerate effect (which will do nothing) and the counter are part of the same ability. The only question then is if Varolz is still destroyed after he gets the counter or if the game sees a 5/5 Varolz and lets him live. If it's the latter, doesn't silliness ensue if he had one less damage than his toughness already when he's incinerated?
  • #550
    I'm pretty sure he'd die as a 5/5 with lethal damage marked on him:

    704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event.


    614.8. Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect. The word “instead” doesn’t appear on the card but is implicit in the definition of regeneration. “Regenerate [permanent]” means “The next time [permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.” Abilities that trigger from damage being dealt still trigger even if the permanent regenerates. See rule 701.12.


    701.12c Neither activating an ability that creates a regeneration shield nor casting a spell that creates a regeneration shield is the same as regenerating a permanent. Effects that say that a permanent can’t be regenerated don’t prevent such abilities from being activated or such spells from being cast; rather, they prevent regeneration shields from having any effect.



    Replacing the text, we get:
    If Varolz, the Scar-Striped would be destroyed, [the next time it would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat]; and put a +1/+1 counter on it.


    Which, after ignoring regeneration becomes:
    If Varolz, the Scar-Striped would be destroyed, and put a +1/+1 counter on it.


    Since the regeneration is ignored, only the +1/+1 counter portion is upheld. (The two don't fit the current criteria for linked abilities). As the +1/+1 counters and the state-based destruction are simultaneous, he'll both go to the graveyard and get the counter. Anything that cares about his power when he dies (like Murder Investigation or Dying Wish) would see him as a 5/5 due to last-known information.

    That said, if the card is real, they'll update the comprehensive rules with the relevant rules when Dragon's Maze is released.
  • #551
    I say $10 bucks when he first hits the scene, $8 after he cools and about $5 after he rotates out. This guy is powerful in standard, but there is nothing special about him that will stand the test of time as an EDH/Commander General.

    I'm hoping this is fake so we can get something more bombastic.
  • #552
    I can confirm this is fake
    I have been in contact with a source of mine, and I can say that this is not the real card. It's too big and too expensive Wink I don't know his abilities, but I'm told they're not this.
    Sorry guys!

    She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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  • #553
    Any specific reason this thread is now labeled [FAKE]? I thought it was still uncomfirmed and possibly real.

    EDIT: Nevermind, too slow.
    My Decks

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  • #554
    I knew it! If you look at the card itself it's pretty obvious it was fake, just that people got all hyped up over his abilities.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - C.S. Lewis
  • #555
    TK-421 says this fake is too big and expensive. At least we have a clue that it has a cc of 3 or less, with a smaller body.

    I love generals that come into play early.
  • #556
    It's always possible TK-421 meant the real card is too big and expensive to be this card.
  • #557
    Hmmm. Right you are. Perhaps TK-421 can clarify? Please?
  • #558
    Even though it has been marked FAKE, I want to point out that not using a legendary creature's full name after the first clause it appeared in, is totally normal:
    Obzedat, Ghost Council
    Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
    Mikaeus, the Lunarch
    Crovax the Cursed
    ... and many more
    The dragon is a perfect marriage of power and the will to use it.
  • #559
    Aww, that's too bad.

    I actually came to the conclusion that it had to be fake based on problems I had with the wording of the card's triggered ability. There isn't really any way for the trigger to happen if it isn't a replacement effect, replacing the destruction with regeneration, a +1/+1 counter, and then destruction again... didn't make sense.

    Oh, and here is why the card didn't work at all.

    The state based action of destruction happens this causes the triggered ability to trigger. Varolz is put into the graveyard. Triggered ability is put on stack. Player gets priority and can do stuff...like wonder what to do with his now destroyed Varolz's triggered ability.

    didn't read previous pages.
    Last edited by 1empyrean: 4/4/2013 4:28:01 AM
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