That's actually a bad example. If he has 1 damage and gets 3 more, he has 4 damage marked on him, but he'll get that counter before state based effects check, so he'll have 5 toughness. It's not like they check until the ability is finished and someone would get priority.
It looks like a fine example.
Incinerate resolves, state-based actions are checked for, and Varolz, the Scar-Striped has four damage marked on him and and can't regenerate. The state-based action for lethal damage destroys him. The +1/+1 counter part of the ability comes next, but because Incinerate's effect stopped regeneration, Varolz was destroyed.
Incinerate resolves, state-based actions are checked for, and Varolz, the Scar-Striped has four damage marked on him and and can't regenerate. The state-based action for lethal damage destroys him. The +1/+1 counter part of the ability comes next, but because Incinerate's effect stopped regeneration, Varolz was destroyed.
I believe that would be the case if it said "Regenerate it, then put a +1/+1 counter on it." As written, however, no part of the ability "comes next"--they occur as one event.
Incinerate just finished resolving. State-based actions are checked and see a Varolz with exactly lethal damage on him, so he's getting destroyed. But just right before that, his static effect kicks in and gives him a regeneration shield and a counter. Then his destruction finally occurs and his regeneration shield can't stop it. He dies as a 5/5 creature with 4 damage marked on him.
If his effect would say ...regenerate him instead, he would get the counter, the shield and, because his destruction has been replaced, survives to see another set of state-based actions. He then is a 5/5 with 4 damage on him that can't regenerate for the rest of the turn and, unless he is tempted to get deathtouch, will survive.
Incinerate just finished resolving. State-based actions are checked and see a Varolz with exactly lethal damage on him, so he's getting destroyed. But just right before that, his static effect kicks in and gives him a regeneration shield and a counter. Then his destruction finally occurs and his regeneration shield can't stop it. He dies as a 5/5 creature with 4 damage marked on him.
If his effect would say ...regenerate him instead, he would get the counter, the shield and, because his destruction has been replaced, survives to see another set of state-based actions. He then is a 5/5 with 4 damage on him that can't regenerate for the rest of the turn and, unless he is tempted to get deathtouch, will survive.
How the heck does a 5/5 with only 4 damage marked on it die? I'd suspect it would survive, just like this example:
An infamous Tarmogoyf gets Lightning Bolted while only a land (e.g. Verdant Catacombs) and a sorcery (e.g. Serum Visions) are in the graveyard. Thus, the Goyf is a 2/3 while Bolt is on the stack. When Bolt finishes resolving, it is in the graveyard, then state-based actions are checked and sees that Goyf is now a 3/4 (thanks, Bolt the instant). Goyf survives as a 3/4 with 3 damage marked on it.
How the heck does a 5/5 with only 4 damage marked on it die? I'd suspect it would survive, just like this example:
An infamous Tarmogoyf gets Lightning Bolted while only a land (e.g. Verdant Catacombs) and a sorcery (e.g. Serum Visions) are in the graveyard. Thus, the Goyf is a 2/3 while Bolt is on the stack. When Bolt finishes resolving, it is in the graveyard, then state-based actions are checked and sees that Goyf is now a 3/4 (thanks, Bolt the instant). Goyf survives as a 3/4 with 3 damage marked on it.
when varolz gets the counter he is already dying he has got the lethal damage and if he cant regenerate then he will die.
like he got the conditions to get destroyed - he is being destroyed then he got a +1/+1 counter and a reg shield but he can't be reg so he gets destroyed.
when varolz gets the counter he is already dying he has got the lethal damage and if he cant regenerate then he will die.
like he got the conditions to get destroyed - he is being destroyed then he got a +1/+1 counter and a reg shield but he can't be reg so he gets destroyed.
But, Varolz (assuming the card is 100% correct) was about to be destroyed because he had 4 damage on him. Then the replacement effect starting with "If" kicks in and puts on a regeneration shield and a +1/+1 counter. After the replacement effect resolves, Varolz is now a 5/5 and should not die to 4 damage.
Now, if he got Terminated instead, Varolz is toast.
Incinerate just finished resolving. State-based actions are checked and see a Varolz with exactly lethal damage on him, so he's getting destroyed. But just right before that, his static effect kicks in and gives him a regeneration shield and a counter. Then his destruction finally occurs and his regeneration shield can't stop it. He dies as a 5/5 creature with 4 damage marked on him.
If his effect would say ...regenerate him instead, he would get the counter, the shield and, because his destruction has been replaced, survives to see another set of state-based actions. He then is a 5/5 with 4 damage on him that can't regenerate for the rest of the turn and, unless he is tempted to get deathtouch, will survive.
As far as I can find, replacement effects all use the word instead other than damage prevention. Most likely, assuming the card is real, it's a templating change to save a word. They're really big on chopping unnecessary complexity and that has meant shortening text before. I don't think instead is ever used other than replacement effects so they could remove it from the game since the card reads just fine without it.
In all likelyhood, the ability is a new template replacement effect so the destruction is replaced by both regenerating and the +1/+1 counter. In that case, Terminate actually can't kill it because it still reads, "if it would be destroyed, put a +1/+1 counter on it [instead]." Weird corner cases like Tatterkite would die if they had that ability, though, since it can't get counters or regenerate in that case. That actually makes the regenerate nearly irrelevant and pretty much only there for flavor (since it is a troll) Obviously, that doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, but sometimes the Magic rules end up being really bizarre in corner cases.
But, Varolz (assuming the card is 100% correct) was about to be destroyed because he had 4 damage on him. Then the replacement effect starting with "If" kicks in and puts on a regeneration shield and a +1/+1 counter. After the replacement effect resolves, Varolz is now a 5/5 and should not die to 4 damage.
Now, if he got Terminated instead, Varolz is toast.
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
701.6. Destroy # 701.6a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard. # 701.6b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed." # 701.6c A regeneration effect replaces a destruction event. See rule 701.12, "Regenerate." #
if he can't be regenerated (by Incinerate) once it gets its lethal damage it is destroyed neither the +1/+1 counter nor the regeneration shield replace varolz beign destroyed
EDIT:
If this is real i will abuse hin with Pestilence in EDH kkk
Honestly, this will probably be addressed in the FAQ when he comes out, but I think I lean towards the "he'll die as a 5/5 with four damage on him", though I can see the argument that he'll die before he gets the +1/+1 counter. I don't think lethal damage checks both before and after it's been modified, though this is the first time they've had to define it.
Honestly, this will probably be addressed in the FAQ when he comes out, but I think I lean towards the "he'll die as a 5/5 with four damage on him", though I can see the argument that he'll die before he gets the +1/+1 counter. I don't think lethal damage checks both before and after it's been modified, though this is the first time they've had to define it.
If he doesn't die as a 5/5 with 4 damage then the other possiblity (which I'm fairly certain is wrong) is that he lives because of the +1/+1 counter. The regenerate effect (which will do nothing) and the counter are part of the same ability. The only question then is if Varolz is still destroyed after he gets the counter or if the game sees a 5/5 Varolz and lets him live. If it's the latter, doesn't silliness ensue if he had one less damage than his toughness already when he's incinerated?
I'm pretty sure he'd die as a 5/5 with lethal damage marked on him:
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event.
614.8. Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect. The word “instead” doesn’t appear on the card but is implicit in the definition of regeneration. “Regenerate [permanent]” means “The next time [permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.” Abilities that trigger from damage being dealt still trigger even if the permanent regenerates. See rule 701.12.
701.12c Neither activating an ability that creates a regeneration shield nor casting a spell that creates a regeneration shield is the same as regenerating a permanent. Effects that say that a permanent can’t be regenerated don’t prevent such abilities from being activated or such spells from being cast; rather, they prevent regeneration shields from having any effect.
Replacing the text, we get:
If Varolz, the Scar-Striped would be destroyed, [the next time it would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat]; and put a +1/+1 counter on it.
Which, after ignoring regeneration becomes:
If Varolz, the Scar-Striped would be destroyed, and put a +1/+1 counter on it.
Since the regeneration is ignored, only the +1/+1 counter portion is upheld. (The two don't fit the current criteria for linked abilities). As the +1/+1 counters and the state-based destruction are simultaneous, he'll both go to the graveyard and get the counter. Anything that cares about his power when he dies (like Murder Investigation or Dying Wish) would see him as a 5/5 due to last-known information.
That said, if the card is real, they'll update the comprehensive rules with the relevant rules when Dragon's Maze is released.
I say $10 bucks when he first hits the scene, $8 after he cools and about $5 after he rotates out. This guy is powerful in standard, but there is nothing special about him that will stand the test of time as an EDH/Commander General.
I'm hoping this is fake so we can get something more bombastic.
I can confirm this is fake
I have been in contact with a source of mine, and I can say that this is not the real card. It's too big and too expensive I don't know his abilities, but I'm told they're not this.
Sorry guys!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I actually came to the conclusion that it had to be fake based on problems I had with the wording of the card's triggered ability. There isn't really any way for the trigger to happen if it isn't a replacement effect, replacing the destruction with regeneration, a +1/+1 counter, and then destruction again... didn't make sense.
Oh, and here is why the card didn't work at all.
The state based action of destruction happens this causes the triggered ability to trigger. Varolz is put into the graveyard. Triggered ability is put on stack. Player gets priority and can do stuff...like wonder what to do with his now destroyed Varolz's triggered ability.
The state based action of destruction happens this causes the triggered ability to trigger. Varolz is put into the graveyard. Triggered ability is put on stack. Player gets priority and can do stuff...like wonder what to do with his now destroyed Varolz's triggered ability.
It looks like a fine example.
Incinerate resolves, state-based actions are checked for, and
Varolz, the Scar-Striped has four damage marked on him and and can't regenerate. The state-based action for lethal damage destroys him. The +1/+1 counter part of the ability comes next, but because Incinerate's effect stopped regeneration, Varolz was destroyed.
I believe that would be the case if it said "Regenerate it, then put a +1/+1 counter on it." As written, however, no part of the ability "comes next"--they occur as one event.
It happens as follows:
Incinerate just finished resolving. State-based actions are checked and see a Varolz with exactly lethal damage on him, so he's getting destroyed. But just right before that, his static effect kicks in and gives him a regeneration shield and a counter. Then his destruction finally occurs and his regeneration shield can't stop it. He dies as a 5/5 creature with 4 damage marked on him.
If his effect would say ...regenerate him instead, he would get the counter, the shield and, because his destruction has been replaced, survives to see another set of state-based actions. He then is a 5/5 with 4 damage on him that can't regenerate for the rest of the turn and, unless he is tempted to get deathtouch, will survive.
thanks for the awsome image http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663!
proud member of the Spirit Of EDH
How the heck does a 5/5 with only 4 damage marked on it die? I'd suspect it would survive, just like this example:
An infamous Tarmogoyf gets Lightning Bolted while only a land (e.g. Verdant Catacombs) and a sorcery (e.g. Serum Visions) are in the graveyard. Thus, the Goyf is a 2/3 while Bolt is on the stack. When Bolt finishes resolving, it is in the graveyard, then state-based actions are checked and sees that Goyf is now a 3/4 (thanks, Bolt the instant). Goyf survives as a 3/4 with 3 damage marked on it.
when varolz gets the counter he is already dying he has got the lethal damage and if he cant regenerate then he will die.
like he got the conditions to get destroyed - he is being destroyed then he got a +1/+1 counter and a reg shield but he can't be reg so he gets destroyed.
But, Varolz (assuming the card is 100% correct) was about to be destroyed because he had 4 damage on him. Then the replacement effect starting with "If" kicks in and puts on a regeneration shield and a +1/+1 counter. After the replacement effect resolves, Varolz is now a 5/5 and should not die to 4 damage.
Now, if he got Terminated instead, Varolz is toast.
As far as I can find, replacement effects all use the word instead other than damage prevention. Most likely, assuming the card is real, it's a templating change to save a word. They're really big on chopping unnecessary complexity and that has meant shortening text before. I don't think instead is ever used other than replacement effects so they could remove it from the game since the card reads just fine without it.
In all likelyhood, the ability is a new template replacement effect so the destruction is replaced by both regenerating and the +1/+1 counter. In that case, Terminate actually can't kill it because it still reads, "if it would be destroyed, put a +1/+1 counter on it [instead]." Weird corner cases like Tatterkite would die if they had that ability, though, since it can't get counters or regenerate in that case. That actually makes the regenerate nearly irrelevant and pretty much only there for flavor (since it is a troll) Obviously, that doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, but sometimes the Magic rules end up being really bizarre in corner cases.
701.6. Destroy #
701.6a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard. #
701.6b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed." #
701.6c A regeneration effect replaces a destruction event. See rule 701.12, "Regenerate." #
EDIT:
If this is real i will abuse hin with Pestilence in EDH kkk
If he doesn't die as a 5/5 with 4 damage then the other possiblity (which I'm fairly certain is wrong) is that he lives because of the +1/+1 counter. The regenerate effect (which will do nothing) and the counter are part of the same ability. The only question then is if Varolz is still destroyed after he gets the counter or if the game sees a 5/5 Varolz and lets him live. If it's the latter, doesn't silliness ensue if he had one less damage than his toughness already when he's incinerated?
Replacing the text, we get:
Which, after ignoring regeneration becomes:
Since the regeneration is ignored, only the +1/+1 counter portion is upheld. (The two don't fit the current criteria for linked abilities). As the +1/+1 counters and the state-based destruction are simultaneous, he'll both go to the graveyard and get the counter. Anything that cares about his power when he dies (like Murder Investigation or Dying Wish) would see him as a 5/5 due to last-known information.
That said, if the card is real, they'll update the comprehensive rules with the relevant rules when Dragon's Maze is released.
I'm hoping this is fake so we can get something more bombastic.
I have been in contact with a source of mine, and I can say that this is not the real card. It's too big and too expensive I don't know his abilities, but I'm told they're not this.
Sorry guys!
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
EDIT: Nevermind, too slow.
I love generals that come into play early.
I actually came to the conclusion that it had to be fake based on problems I had with the wording of the card's triggered ability. There isn't really any way for the trigger to happen if it isn't a replacement effect, replacing the destruction with regeneration, a +1/+1 counter, and then destruction again... didn't make sense.
Oh, and here is why the card didn't work at all.
The state based action of destruction happens this causes the triggered ability to trigger. Varolz is put into the graveyard. Triggered ability is put on stack. Player gets priority and can do stuff...like wonder what to do with his now destroyed Varolz's triggered ability.
didn't read previous pages.
Read Mossbridge Troll, then try that explanation again.
hmmm, interesting. That must mean that its not a triggered ability, but a static ability...
Also, this shows that I didn't read this thread, as mossbridge has been linked already :-/.
The way it's worded makes it a triggered ability happens whenever an effect that destroys it is put on the stack.