MAN it is close between the two....
I'm legitimately surprised. Of course, I went with enchantment again, because everyone has already pointed out reasons for it.
Similar cards compete with each other for deck space. If there are only 20 nonfixing rare lands in the format, half of them will be in the top 10 nonfixing rare lands in the format. If there are 100 rare enchantments, only 10% will be in the top 10 rare enchantments.
Weird, those are the same reasons I didn't vote for enchantment...
Plus, more modern playable lands is a good thing.
The enchantment made could end up getting banned in Modern, like Bitterblossom, as far as I know, the only lands banned in modern are Dark Depths and the 5 color-producing artifact lands...
Plus, again, the land could be COLORLESS, meaning LESS restrictive...
well i dunno how you think enchantments could be restrictive or expensive, and you could maybe make a case for boring.
if you are arguing against enchantments then why bring up there are more lands banned in modern than enchantments (and you forgot cloudpost btw)
and fyi the only format where colorless is less restrictive is EDH, otherwise its harder to fit into a deck as it doesn't produce colored mana
Similar cards compete with each other for deck space. If there are only 20 nonfixing rare lands in the format, half of them will be in the top 10 nonfixing rare lands in the format. If there are 100 rare enchantments, only 10% will be in the top 10 rare enchantments.
Does that not support my point rather than yours? Lands compete for playability far more than enchantments do because a given deck can only support so many lands, and particularly utility lands with drawbacks.
Regardless, there isn't really much potential for enchantments to compete with each other for space, as far as I can tell, simply because it is so rare for them to actually be used.
well i dunno how you think enchantments could be restrictive or expensive, and you could maybe make a case for boring.
if you are arguing against enchantments then why bring up there are more lands banned in modern than enchantments (and you forgot cloudpost btw)
and fyi the only format where colorless is less restrictive is EDH, otherwise its harder to fit into a deck as it doesn't produce colored mana
Except that 5 of the lands banned in modern do the same thing and are banned because of their interaction with ONE deck?
So really, only 2 lands are banned in modern, and only ONE produces mana (and it's banned because of its' interaction with ONE deck...)
Bitterblossom was banned because of its' interaction with Multiple types of decks.
Plus, Lands are popular with eternal and EDH players, making that point only strengthen's mine...
Enchantments are far more narrow and tbh, you'd likely end up with another Search the City or Guild Feud instead of us ending up with a good, universal land.
Plus, remember the last time we did this? We ended up with the jank that is Vanish into Memory... The most popular card made? Crucible of Worlds, why? Because it's COLORLESS and usable by EVERYONE...
The argument made for Crucible can be made for the land as well.
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Voted creature the first time (I wanted red's broken 2 drop), voted enchantment this time. (disclaimer, I play Legacy and EDH almost exclusively, though I've been playing since Onslaught)
Both card types are easily splashed for, and the color restriction rule in EDH will make them equally available to whatever general has the colors of the new card.
IF Wizards was to make a land, it would NOT be any of the super awesome lands people seem to want. Wizards simply will not print a universal fetchland, a land that counters spells, etc. It also likely son't be colorless, since believe it or not, that's an incredibly restrictive design space.
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Yikes....I had to scroll to put the cards tag around all the sucky (or rendered sucky due to bannings) cards. And that's only through the fourth page....
Umm, Cloudpost taps for mana only, it doesn't really do anything else, plus, banned in modern.
D-Depths is banned too... Also, you left out lands that tapped for mana but had additional effects, Like Oran Rief, The Vastwood, Emeria, The Sky Ruin, Desolate Lighthouse is a good one too...
You left out a LOT of lands that see play...
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Eye of Ugin isn't even really an exception either, because while it doesn't produce mana, it still helps you to cast your spells (by making them cheaper). Dark Depths is the only real exception since Ice Age.
(Well, unless you count Arena and Safe Haven since they were timeshifted in Time Spiral.)
Does that not support my point rather than yours? Lands compete for playability far more than enchantments do because a given deck can only support so many lands, and particularly utility lands with drawbacks.
The same is true of enchantments: decks generally can't support many, if any. The two types (once we exclude fixing lands) are similar in that regard.
Regardless, there isn't really much potential for enchantments to compete with each other for space, as far as I can tell, simply because it is so rare for them to actually be used.
I think that's more due to the fact that most enchantments aren't designed for competitive constructed play....
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
I've said this once, and I'll say it again: Lands don't have the design space that Enchantments have. It's way too early to start restricting ourselves into such a tiny area to work with.
Vote enchantments.
Yeah, I think WotC agrees and that's why they didn't have a pro-land rebuttal.
How about a land that as it enters the battlefield choose a basic land type. Then taps (with a cost probably) to turn any non- basic land into that basic land. Satisfies the generate mana restriction by being able to target itslef, and also has some pretty hefty non basic land hate.
You should read the thread (and what I wrote)....I purposely disincluded lands that tap for colored mana, only went to page four for a quick sample, and I already cited that some were on the sucks list specifically because they were banned.
The point was (lost on some people) that lands are just as bad proportionally speaking as enchantments.
Night all!
Go team Enchantment! WOO!
Sorry, but I've never seen any land as bad as Search the City, the thing isn't even limited playable...
Proportionally speaking, for every 5 enchantments there are in modern, there's one non-basic land. and probably about a 4:1 ratio of BAD Enchantments to Non-basic lands too...
There are currently 741 Legal enchantments in Modern, and 262 Legal Non-basic lands in Modern. of which, half are simply dual lands.
IN all formats there are 1745 Enchantments, there are only 471 non-basic lands in all formats...
How about a land that as it enters the battlefield choose a basic land type. Then taps (with a cost probably) to turn any non- basic land into that basic land. Satisfies the generate mana restriction by being able to target itslef, and also has some pretty hefty non basic land hate.
The same is true of enchantments: decks generally can't support many, if any. The two types (once we exclude fixing lands) are similar in that regard.
I think that's more due to the fact that most enchantments aren't designed for competitive constructed play....
A quick aside on that note - The argument can be made that planeswalkers took over a lot of the potential design space for constructed-playable enchantments. Heck, the trend towards planeswalker emblems is essentially non-removable enchantments, and the planeswalker design itself is simply a more interactive enchantment.
With that said, I think R&D learned their lesson with tibalt that they are better off using low-cmc enchantments or creatures for intended incremental effects, rather than 1 or 2cmc planeswalkers. This is why I'm hoping for a sexy 2-drop red enchantment that forces all creatures to attack each turn.
and what's to stop the enchantment from being plain Garbage? we've seen Much more garbage enchantments lately than we've seen garbage lands..
Plaguefather do you know that in the YMTC we just choose between options pre-made?
What do you think is more plausive: a very powerfull land or a very powerfull enchantment?
2: All lands become the land type of your choice until end of turn.
But this isn't the place for Custom Card Creation, so this is the last i'll speak of it.
Just saying, lands have more untapped design space than people want to give credit for. The low number of lands printed in the past 20 years of magic lend credence to this idea...
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Just saying, lands have more untapped design space than people want to give credit for. The low number of lands printed in the past 20 years of magic lend credence to this idea...
Precisely the opposite. Few lands are printed because there's so little design space there.
I think that's more due to the fact that most enchantments aren't designed for competitive constructed play....
Alright, it seems we have been talking past each other. This is all I was trying to say, so if you agree on that, then we have nothing more to argue about.
Plaguefather do you know that in the YMTC we just choose between options pre-made?
What do you think is more plausive: a very powerfull land or a very powerfull enchantment?
Uhh... yeah, I know what YMTC is dude... Please, don't patronize me.
Look at what happened with Crucible of Worlds.
Now, look at recent design philosophy concerning lands and Enchantments,
Enchantments have been getting weaker, as in, not a single MUST-PLAY enchantment made in the past 4 years... Oblivion ring and reprints of older cards aside.
My point is, the chances for some of the untapped design spaces of lands can come out in this.
Before Crucible was chosen for YMTC2, who would've thought of an Artifact doing something like that? No one!
So, likely we'll get to see something we haven't seen before on a land if land wins, very high... Considering the relatively LOW number of non-basic lands EVER printed...
The Possibilites are a lot more vast than there are for enchantments...
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Alright, it seems we have been talking past each other. This is all I was trying to say, so if you agree on that, then we have nothing more to argue about.
What conclusion do you draw from that, though? Just because most enchantments aren't designed to be competitive doesn't mean that they can't be competitive when they want them to be.
I'm legitimately surprised. Of course, I went with enchantment again, because everyone has already pointed out reasons for it.
Similar cards compete with each other for deck space. If there are only 20 nonfixing rare lands in the format, half of them will be in the top 10 nonfixing rare lands in the format. If there are 100 rare enchantments, only 10% will be in the top 10 rare enchantments.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
well i dunno how you think enchantments could be restrictive or expensive, and you could maybe make a case for boring.
if you are arguing against enchantments then why bring up there are more lands banned in modern than enchantments (and you forgot cloudpost btw)
and fyi the only format where colorless is less restrictive is EDH, otherwise its harder to fit into a deck as it doesn't produce colored mana
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Does that not support my point rather than yours? Lands compete for playability far more than enchantments do because a given deck can only support so many lands, and particularly utility lands with drawbacks.
Regardless, there isn't really much potential for enchantments to compete with each other for space, as far as I can tell, simply because it is so rare for them to actually be used.
If there's not much space in lands, we should use it because whatever we use for enchantment won't be useable then
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Except that 5 of the lands banned in modern do the same thing and are banned because of their interaction with ONE deck?
So really, only 2 lands are banned in modern, and only ONE produces mana (and it's banned because of its' interaction with ONE deck...)
Bitterblossom was banned because of its' interaction with Multiple types of decks.
Plus, Lands are popular with eternal and EDH players, making that point only strengthen's mine...
Enchantments are far more narrow and tbh, you'd likely end up with another Search the City or Guild Feud instead of us ending up with a good, universal land.
Plus, remember the last time we did this? We ended up with the jank that is Vanish into Memory... The most popular card made? Crucible of Worlds, why? Because it's COLORLESS and usable by EVERYONE...
The argument made for Crucible can be made for the land as well.
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Both card types are easily splashed for, and the color restriction rule in EDH will make them equally available to whatever general has the colors of the new card.
IF Wizards was to make a land, it would NOT be any of the super awesome lands people seem to want. Wizards simply will not print a universal fetchland, a land that counters spells, etc. It also likely son't be colorless, since believe it or not, that's an incredibly restrictive design space.
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Umm, Cloudpost taps for mana only, it doesn't really do anything else, plus, banned in modern.
D-Depths is banned too... Also, you left out lands that tapped for mana but had additional effects, Like Oran Rief, The Vastwood, Emeria, The Sky Ruin, Desolate Lighthouse is a good one too...
You left out a LOT of lands that see play...
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(Well, unless you count Arena and Safe Haven since they were timeshifted in Time Spiral.)
The same is true of enchantments: decks generally can't support many, if any. The two types (once we exclude fixing lands) are similar in that regard.
I think that's more due to the fact that most enchantments aren't designed for competitive constructed play....
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Yeah, I think WotC agrees and that's why they didn't have a pro-land rebuttal.
Sorry, but I've never seen any land as bad as Search the City, the thing isn't even limited playable...
Proportionally speaking, for every 5 enchantments there are in modern, there's one non-basic land. and probably about a 4:1 ratio of BAD Enchantments to Non-basic lands too...
There are currently 741 Legal enchantments in Modern, and 262 Legal Non-basic lands in Modern. of which, half are simply dual lands.
IN all formats there are 1745 Enchantments, there are only 471 non-basic lands in all formats...
Point is, we need more land.
Kinda like Unstable Frontier?
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A quick aside on that note - The argument can be made that planeswalkers took over a lot of the potential design space for constructed-playable enchantments. Heck, the trend towards planeswalker emblems is essentially non-removable enchantments, and the planeswalker design itself is simply a more interactive enchantment.
With that said, I think R&D learned their lesson with tibalt that they are better off using low-cmc enchantments or creatures for intended incremental effects, rather than 1 or 2cmc planeswalkers. This is why I'm hoping for a sexy 2-drop red enchantment that forces all creatures to attack each turn.
and what's to stop the enchantment from being plain Garbage? we've seen Much more garbage enchantments lately than we've seen garbage lands..
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Allow it to target opponents lands make it cost 2/3 to activate
Plaguefather do you know that in the YMTC we just choose between options pre-made?
What do you think is more plausive: a very powerfull land or a very powerfull enchantment?
So, 3 mana to cast an Evil Presence for one turn?
That... is unplayable.
Convincing Mirage did a better job at that than the land would do.
I could see something like this
2: All lands become the land type of your choice until end of turn.
But this isn't the place for Custom Card Creation, so this is the last i'll speak of it.
Just saying, lands have more untapped design space than people want to give credit for. The low number of lands printed in the past 20 years of magic lend credence to this idea...
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Precisely the opposite. Few lands are printed because there's so little design space there.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Alright, it seems we have been talking past each other. This is all I was trying to say, so if you agree on that, then we have nothing more to argue about.
Uhh... yeah, I know what YMTC is dude... Please, don't patronize me.
Look at what happened with Crucible of Worlds.
Now, look at recent design philosophy concerning lands and Enchantments,
Lands have been getting more powerful, see Cavern of Souls.
Enchantments have been getting weaker, as in, not a single MUST-PLAY enchantment made in the past 4 years... Oblivion ring and reprints of older cards aside.
My point is, the chances for some of the untapped design spaces of lands can come out in this.
Before Crucible was chosen for YMTC2, who would've thought of an Artifact doing something like that? No one!
So, likely we'll get to see something we haven't seen before on a land if land wins, very high... Considering the relatively LOW number of non-basic lands EVER printed...
The Possibilites are a lot more vast than there are for enchantments...
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What conclusion do you draw from that, though? Just because most enchantments aren't designed to be competitive doesn't mean that they can't be competitive when they want them to be.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)