Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
What I don't understand is why wouldn't they just ban the problem of storm Grapeshot? It makes no sense to ban Seething Song because that isn't the problem when Grapeshot is. Because in the future they wouldn't have to worry about what they print that would help storm because it would be dead, I'm looking at you Past in Flames.
you know, BBE isn't the only card with cascade. if you like cascade action, there are plenty others.
It's the best one by far, and none of the others can even come close to comparing to it. If Shardless Agent were legal it would be in the deck already. Bituminous Blast is a sb card at best tho, and gets way worse with Bloodbraid gone.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
I really don't see how "We don't want this to be a turn 3 format" is capricious or arbitrary.
The simple fact of storm's existence caused a wide selection of deck types to be simply unplayable, because you can't run a deck that can't answer storm. Because of this, storm was hugely oppressive to the Modern metagame, even without needing to account for a majority of actual decks played.
What decks become unplayable? Storm is the biggest glass cannon there is, a potential turn three win that is hated out by more cards than any other deck in the format. Does your deck play white? Then it answers Storm. Does your deck play blue? Then it answers Storm. Does your deck play black? Then it answers Storm. Is your deck capable of playing artifacts? Then it answers Storm.
Do you play a deck at all? As long as you just bring 60 cards to the table, you have a reasonable chance of winning against a Storm deck that tries to go off on turn 3.
Check the statistics that I gave again...3.9% of the 18-point-and-better field was Storm. If the deck is so oppressive that you have to play a certain kind of deck to beat it, then I congratulate the other 96.1% of the field for metagaming against Storm so successfully.
You know Infect can still win on turn 3, right? Where's the ban on Might of Old Krosa? It's not there because Infect can't win on turn 3 consistently. And whatever Wizards says as an excuse, neither can Storm. If it could, it would garner more than 4 percent of the field.
Again, I can't stand Storm in any format. I will never play it and I will eternally hate playing against it. Playing against it on MTGO is at least reasonable because I can hit F6 and go make myself a sandwich. So it isn't crying for Storm that I'm doing. It's being concerned that if no one has any idea what Wizards is doing on bannings, then no one wants to invest time and money into playing Modern, because who knows how long it will be until your favorite deck is banned into submission?
If they can completely dismantle a second-tier deck like Storm that only saw any active play because it's cheap, then I don't want to take that chance.
Epilogue: I play primarily on MTGO, and I sold out of there today. Cockatrice is a reasonable replacement (not as good, but reasonable) and at least when Wizards throws the darts for the next banning, I won't stand any chance of being out anything.
What I don't understand is why wouldn't they just ban the problem of storm Grapeshot? It makes no sense to ban Seething Song because that isn't the problem when Grapeshot is. Because in the future they wouldn't have to worry about what they print that would help storm because it would be dead, I'm looking at you Past in Flames.
They don't want to kill the deck. They want to slow it down.
They are already brewing up effective T4 storm decks without Seething Song. Storm is still alive and well, it's just now in line with the goals of the format.
It seems the only people overreacting to Storm are the one who don't play it. The actual Storm players brewed, tested, adjusted, and moved on.
Idc what the reasons for bannings are.modern is way to unstable for me. Banning cards left and right for w/e reason.they lost my buisness wanting to play in that format.goodbye
Yeah, I mean banning two cards that can be bought for under 2 bucks a piece sure is mean. I think you can complain about budget problems of Modern, when they start aiming their sights at the big money cards in the format from this point on.
Neither deck is dead from this move... Jund will survive in some form maybe by switching a color, Storm will survive and just be slightly slower.
Budget isn't really Modern's problem right now. I want to see a year without bannings, and a natural evolution of the metagame as sets are released. A bit like Legacy, if you will. I remember people crying over Nacatl's banning over a year ago. People have moved on, playing other decks. I don't disagree with either banning, but I think it may have been a bit drastic considering it's Modern PTQ season.
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I think people just need to quit complaining... Bloodbraid Elf was an Unfair card, it and the other Cascade cards generate too much value! Jund made standard 3 1/2 years ago stale and Jund is making modern stale... what's the correct course of action here? Ban the most unfair card in the deck that sees little to no play in other decks, BBE...
Deal with it! quit complaining because you can't play what everyone else is playing! Seriously, BBE being banned doesn't kill jund, it just makes it less explosive... Banning BBE was the right move because look at the reaction its' getting, people just can't be innovative anymore, banning it forces people to innovate, but they don't want to do that so they're just crying about it and saying stuff like "I'm not playing modern anymore since I can't play with really unfair cards!"
What was BBE? a Glorifed beater that casted a spell for free when it was cast... Shoulda known for a while it was going to get banned because WOTC doesn't like free spells, hence why Affinity will never come back on a new card... They've admitted Cascade was a mistake, and Phyrexian mana was almost just as bad... Jund is now on level with almost every other deck in the format, deal with it...
I don't know that people are complaining because they "can't play with really unfair cards." I know that I am a little sad about this mainly because I will have to either buy new cards for my Jund deck and hope it stays viable, or invest the money in an entirely new deck. I know that the reason I got into modern was because I had really strong Extended Zoo and Jund decks sitting around from that extended season that were easily converted to Modern decks.
I thought I would be able to play with those decks forever, altering them when better cards were introduced. Instead, Zoo got neutered, so I turned to Jund. You can see my dilemma if my Jund deck gets neutered too, right? I was excited about Modern because I thought it might mean that I'd have a chance to not have to cycle out my decks all the time without spending exorbitant amounts of money of a Legacy deck. At this rate, I'm just worried that I won't be able to keep up with Modern.
There's nothing I can do about this, so I won't get all up in arms, but doesn't mean I have to like it.
Budget isn't really Modern's problem right now. I want to see a year without bannings, and a natural evolution of the metagame as sets are released. A bit like Legacy, if you will. I remember people crying over Nacatl's banning over a year ago. People have moved on, playing other decks. I don't disagree with either banning, but I think it may have been a bit drastic considering it's Modern PTQ season.
The last banning before this one was December, 2011. Over a year with no banning.
I don't know that people are complaining because they "can't play with really unfair cards."
Sure it is. That's what EVER banlist discussion in every format boils down to.
I don't know that people are complaining because they "can't play with really unfair cards." I know that I am a little sad about this mainly because I will have to either buy new cards for my Jund deck and hope it stays viable, or invest the money in an entirely new deck. I know that the reason I got into modern was because I had really strong Extended Zoo and Jund decks sitting around from that extended season that were easily converted to Modern decks.
I thought I would be able to play with those decks forever, altering them when better cards were introduced. Instead, Zoo got neutered, so I turned to Jund. You can see my dilemma if my Jund deck gets neutered too, right? I was excited about Modern because I thought it might mean that I'd have a chance to not have to cycle out my decks all the time without spending exorbitant amounts of money of a Legacy deck. At this rate, I'm just worried that I won't be able to keep up with Modern.
There's nothing I can do about this, so I won't get all up in arms, but doesn't mean I have to like it.
Umm, Banning BBE doesn't kill jund, just find something else that really ridiculous to put in that spot (Huntmaster of the Fells works well!) Wow, a measly $2 uncommon got banned from your deck, just be thankful they didn't ban your $50 Dark Confidants and your $100 Tarmogoyfs, or your $50 Thoughtseizes, You lost a $2 uncommon...Deal with it, adapt and move on. There are plenty of other good 4 drops that could go in that spot. Plus, there are other cascade cards, none as good, but still... Jund didn't get neutered, all the banning did was slowed it down a bit...
On topic, there's one card i thought for sure would have come off the list by now... Sword of the Meek.
The deck that uses it can't win on turn 3, at earliest, it wins on turn 6...so why did it get banned?
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Jace, the Mind Sculptor doesn't win by turn 3-4 either, think why it was banned. Power level of one combo or card can be too much, not the turn it wins unopposed.
Yeah, but the deck folds to pretty much every deck in the format, it just isn't fast enough to be competitive, In a format with No Ancient Tomb, it just isn't good. I mean, your first 4 turns are spent setting up your mana base, then you start casting stuff, on that clock, the deck just loses to everything else... it has to be a secondary strategy in another deck to even be plausible.
Also, i wasn't saying that the ban cards based on their secondary market price (although, they kinda did that when Jace was in standard...Barrier to entry, etc.), People were complaining because they spent money on Jund, well, your investment is still sound, you just took a $8 hit on those 4 uncommons in your deck... chances are you've played standard for a while, and playing jund in modern, chances are you're playing it in standard too, which would mean that they'd have reasonable access to Huntmasters...
Trust me, cards that are TOO good for what they are, chances are they'll be banned. BBE was considered TOO good for what it did in standard 3 1/2 years ago, and it's still considered too good for what it does today, hence its' banning in modern. It provided too much board advantage for 4 mana...
I'm happy BBE got banned, and I played it in one of my pet modern decks, (I called it Stompy Forcemage) and I played 4X of them, because the interaction with Primal Forcemage was hilarious. I played the card and even I can admit it was too good.
Why is it so hard to accept that its' gone? Play a different card, the deck isn't dead, it's just a bit less explosive... Play Kitchen Finks, or Huntmaster, whatever, just stop complaining...... What's done is done. Modern is a young format, there are going to be bannings for at least it's first few years of existence to establish a baseline for future meta growth.
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The other problem with BBE was in Jund vs. Jund it was all about who drew the most BBE's and who had the best cascades.
Why do people loathe Miracle cards? Most loathe them because they turn magic into an even greater game of luck. BBE does the exact same damn thing. If I flip horribly with BBE I could literally lose games just because I am unlucky from BBE alone. Obviously other factors will come into play but you could watch a pro lose a game completely on the fact that his BBE cascading was abysmal in a matchup.
The other problem with BBE was in Jund vs. Jund it was all about who drew the most BBE's and who had the best cascades.
Why do people loathe Miracle cards? Most loathe them because they turn magic into an even greater game of luck. BBE does the exact same damn thing. If I flip horribly with BBE I could literally lose games just because I am unlucky from BBE alone. Obviously other factors will come into play but you could watch a pro lose a game completely on the fact that his BBE cascading was abysmal in a matchup.
Well thats hardly an argument.
If you are unlucky you will lose games, no surprise.
If you simply draw land + land + land you lose, easy as that.
Sure cascade adds an extra random factor as you get an extra card, but its actual the same in nearly every "mirror" , the one that lucks out wins, the other loses.
bbe wasn't what made Jund good, it's what made Jund better. if they really wanted to ruin jund, just ban lotus cobra/ anything else that jund plays and wins games. same with seething song, it makes storm better. storm is still playable, just not as fast. and if they really wanted to shut down storm decks, ban grapeshot or empty the warrens.
BTW with the unban stoeforge mystic, it's what broke caw blade in standard and batterskull. i will not mention anything about Modern because i am not into listing a ton of broken equipments.
Problem: Because Wizards want to keep Modern's power level BELOW the level of dominating Standard decks of last 10 years they will need to keep constantly banning something. The last bans were necessary, but only because The format lacks self-balancing tools.
Also the effect is the format isn't any more fun to play than Standard.
First step towards making Modern a good format: unban all banned cards that are legal in Legacy.
Second step: Make a "Modern Masters 2" set full of reprints of Legacy staples not currently in Modern and make them Modern legal.
TADA! Awesome well balanced format with just a little worse mana bases than Legacy. The only 1 format I would want to play.
Just look at Legacy - despite all the superpowerful cards it's well balanced, constantly changing, and doesn't need to ban any cards that are not absurdly broken. It has the tools to adapt and prevent any strategy from dominating in the long term.
Have a look at the deck that dominated last weekend's SCG Legacy Open - 3 in top8, 1 winner:
First step towards making Modern a good format: unban all banned cards that are legal in Legacy.
Second step: Make a "Modern Masters 2" set full of reprints of Legacy staples not currently in Modern and make them Modern legal.
TADA! Awesome well balanced format with just a little worse mana bases than Legacy. The only 1 format I would want to play.
So we make modern into legacy lite and reprint a bunch of stuff to destroy the value of people's collections just to create your dream format. Makes sense.
Every time somebody compares Modern to Standard unfavorably it makes me want to kick a kitten. Modern is NOT supposed to be Legacy. And no, Standard is NOT the same as Modern either.
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Same thing with Pauper with Empty the Warrens and Grapeshot.
On phasing:
........................
It's the best one by far, and none of the others can even come close to comparing to it. If Shardless Agent were legal it would be in the deck already. Bituminous Blast is a sb card at best tho, and gets way worse with Bloodbraid gone.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
What decks become unplayable? Storm is the biggest glass cannon there is, a potential turn three win that is hated out by more cards than any other deck in the format. Does your deck play white? Then it answers Storm. Does your deck play blue? Then it answers Storm. Does your deck play black? Then it answers Storm. Is your deck capable of playing artifacts? Then it answers Storm.
Do you play a deck at all? As long as you just bring 60 cards to the table, you have a reasonable chance of winning against a Storm deck that tries to go off on turn 3.
Check the statistics that I gave again...3.9% of the 18-point-and-better field was Storm. If the deck is so oppressive that you have to play a certain kind of deck to beat it, then I congratulate the other 96.1% of the field for metagaming against Storm so successfully.
You know Infect can still win on turn 3, right? Where's the ban on Might of Old Krosa? It's not there because Infect can't win on turn 3 consistently. And whatever Wizards says as an excuse, neither can Storm. If it could, it would garner more than 4 percent of the field.
Again, I can't stand Storm in any format. I will never play it and I will eternally hate playing against it. Playing against it on MTGO is at least reasonable because I can hit F6 and go make myself a sandwich. So it isn't crying for Storm that I'm doing. It's being concerned that if no one has any idea what Wizards is doing on bannings, then no one wants to invest time and money into playing Modern, because who knows how long it will be until your favorite deck is banned into submission?
If they can completely dismantle a second-tier deck like Storm that only saw any active play because it's cheap, then I don't want to take that chance.
Epilogue: I play primarily on MTGO, and I sold out of there today. Cockatrice is a reasonable replacement (not as good, but reasonable) and at least when Wizards throws the darts for the next banning, I won't stand any chance of being out anything.
GBW Melira Pod WBG
BW Tokens WB
They don't want to kill the deck. They want to slow it down.
They are already brewing up effective T4 storm decks without Seething Song. Storm is still alive and well, it's just now in line with the goals of the format.
It seems the only people overreacting to Storm are the one who don't play it. The actual Storm players brewed, tested, adjusted, and moved on.
Unban Stoneforge Mystic
Yeah, I mean banning two cards that can be bought for under 2 bucks a piece sure is mean. I think you can complain about budget problems of Modern, when they start aiming their sights at the big money cards in the format from this point on.
Neither deck is dead from this move... Jund will survive in some form maybe by switching a color, Storm will survive and just be slightly slower.
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I don't know that people are complaining because they "can't play with really unfair cards." I know that I am a little sad about this mainly because I will have to either buy new cards for my Jund deck and hope it stays viable, or invest the money in an entirely new deck. I know that the reason I got into modern was because I had really strong Extended Zoo and Jund decks sitting around from that extended season that were easily converted to Modern decks.
I thought I would be able to play with those decks forever, altering them when better cards were introduced. Instead, Zoo got neutered, so I turned to Jund. You can see my dilemma if my Jund deck gets neutered too, right? I was excited about Modern because I thought it might mean that I'd have a chance to not have to cycle out my decks all the time without spending exorbitant amounts of money of a Legacy deck. At this rate, I'm just worried that I won't be able to keep up with Modern.
There's nothing I can do about this, so I won't get all up in arms, but doesn't mean I have to like it.
you seem to be missing one statement here...
The last banning before this one was December, 2011. Over a year with no banning.
Sure it is. That's what EVER banlist discussion in every format boils down to.
Unbanning just upsets the other half happy about the bans. so its a lose/lose situation for Wotc.
Umm, Banning BBE doesn't kill jund, just find something else that really ridiculous to put in that spot (Huntmaster of the Fells works well!) Wow, a measly $2 uncommon got banned from your deck, just be thankful they didn't ban your $50 Dark Confidants and your $100 Tarmogoyfs, or your $50 Thoughtseizes, You lost a $2 uncommon...Deal with it, adapt and move on. There are plenty of other good 4 drops that could go in that spot. Plus, there are other cascade cards, none as good, but still... Jund didn't get neutered, all the banning did was slowed it down a bit...
On topic, there's one card i thought for sure would have come off the list by now... Sword of the Meek.
The deck that uses it can't win on turn 3, at earliest, it wins on turn 6...so why did it get banned?
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I still agree with the BBE banning, but this does mean Jund gets even more expensive to play, if it remains a strong deck (which it will).
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Yeah, but the deck folds to pretty much every deck in the format, it just isn't fast enough to be competitive, In a format with No Ancient Tomb, it just isn't good. I mean, your first 4 turns are spent setting up your mana base, then you start casting stuff, on that clock, the deck just loses to everything else... it has to be a secondary strategy in another deck to even be plausible.
Also, i wasn't saying that the ban cards based on their secondary market price (although, they kinda did that when Jace was in standard...Barrier to entry, etc.), People were complaining because they spent money on Jund, well, your investment is still sound, you just took a $8 hit on those 4 uncommons in your deck... chances are you've played standard for a while, and playing jund in modern, chances are you're playing it in standard too, which would mean that they'd have reasonable access to Huntmasters...
Trust me, cards that are TOO good for what they are, chances are they'll be banned. BBE was considered TOO good for what it did in standard 3 1/2 years ago, and it's still considered too good for what it does today, hence its' banning in modern. It provided too much board advantage for 4 mana...
I'm happy BBE got banned, and I played it in one of my pet modern decks, (I called it Stompy Forcemage) and I played 4X of them, because the interaction with Primal Forcemage was hilarious. I played the card and even I can admit it was too good.
Why is it so hard to accept that its' gone? Play a different card, the deck isn't dead, it's just a bit less explosive... Play Kitchen Finks, or Huntmaster, whatever, just stop complaining...... What's done is done. Modern is a young format, there are going to be bannings for at least it's first few years of existence to establish a baseline for future meta growth.
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Why do people loathe Miracle cards? Most loathe them because they turn magic into an even greater game of luck. BBE does the exact same damn thing. If I flip horribly with BBE I could literally lose games just because I am unlucky from BBE alone. Obviously other factors will come into play but you could watch a pro lose a game completely on the fact that his BBE cascading was abysmal in a matchup.
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So have you just never played Modern as a format, or never heard of the Magic card Batterskull?
the fire - I will become the flame." - Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
Well thats hardly an argument.
If you are unlucky you will lose games, no surprise.
If you simply draw land + land + land you lose, easy as that.
Sure cascade adds an extra random factor as you get an extra card, but its actual the same in nearly every "mirror" , the one that lucks out wins, the other loses.
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BTW with the unban stoeforge mystic, it's what broke caw blade in standard and batterskull. i will not mention anything about Modern because i am not into listing a ton of broken equipments.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying either are too strong or impossible to deal with! They are just so common that it kinda ticks me off...
I'm super glad to see storm take a hit...
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My mind numbing DC-10 stack!
Also the effect is the format isn't any more fun to play than Standard.
First step towards making Modern a good format: unban all banned cards that are legal in Legacy.
Second step: Make a "Modern Masters 2" set full of reprints of Legacy staples not currently in Modern and make them Modern legal.
TADA! Awesome well balanced format with just a little worse mana bases than Legacy. The only 1 format I would want to play.
Just look at Legacy - despite all the superpowerful cards it's well balanced, constantly changing, and doesn't need to ban any cards that are not absurdly broken. It has the tools to adapt and prevent any strategy from dominating in the long term.
Have a look at the deck that dominated last weekend's SCG Legacy Open - 3 in top8, 1 winner:
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Duress
So what you're saying is that you want to play Legacy. Why not do that?
So we make modern into legacy lite and reprint a bunch of stuff to destroy the value of people's collections just to create your dream format. Makes sense.
I bet because he can't afford the legacy staples without having them being reprinted in his "Modern Masters 2."