The main rule to follow on this forum is "what people say is bad turns out to be good while what people say is good turns out to be bad".
As an example, out of Vraska and Jace, Vraska would be the dominating planeswalker - I mean Jace is worst than the Mind Sculptor. Angel of Serenity would be too expensive to be played. Delver/Lingering Souls would be still dominating.
Not exactly. The gap between those cards and this card is ...enormous. I also don't remember many people talking about Angel of Serenity as anything other than a staple card in reanimator and ramp strategies...which is exactly what it is. Perhaps I just tune out the people who are clearly out of their mind, but from my perspective it seemed like people had a pretty good grip on the power level of both Vraska and Jace. At least the people that I didn't immediately disregard. I thought, as well as many, that Jace would be a decent card in hard control decks and that Vraska was a little too slow to be much more than a fringe card.
Rather then compare it to arena compare it to Underworld connections. Underworld connections sees some play but not a huge amount and comes down on the same turn as this and is assured card draw while this isn't.
Dies to removal is a terrible argument but dies to every removal in the format without doing anything is not.
Here is a short list of cards i can think of that kill this.
Searing Spear*
Tragic Slip*
Sever the bloodline
Pillar of flame
Supreme Verdict
Dreadbore
Olivia Ping*
brimstone volley*
I just included cards that are at least semi playable and starred the ones that stopped you from drawing any cards
compare this card with Mercurial Chemister and you can see where it will likely end up.
I can't see any way this is broken at 3. The card draw on this is incredibly conditional and becomes increasingly difficult once you get a few cards off of it. Vanilla 1/1s are notoriously easy to remove as well. If this were at 3 mana I don't think it would be much better than a Phyrexian Arena.
At 3 mana it would be borderline broken in limited though.
Its power and toughness is of no relevance.
A potentially unlimited card draw, without mana investment, is a very dangerous card to print.
I am not saying that it would be broken for this specific card, I am just pointing out that it can be very easy to potentially break these cards.
Obviously I would rather see this at 3 too, but I completely understand why they would be hesitant printing it out.
Dont forget that the way this is worded, you will be able to draw two cards f.e. with talrand's evocation, or any other card that produces multiple creatures at the same time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Give credit, where credit is due. Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found. The whip is kept for special occasions
The Internet was a revelation to me, I never imagined there are so many idiots on this planet.
This is very ironic. Magical Christmasland scenarios are the definition of narrow vision. You have to come up with narrow scenarios to find situations where the card isn't totally worthless.
Sure, because a turn 2/3 geist, turn 3/4 creature with 4 CMC is a dream scenario that never ever happens!
Underworld connections sees some play but not a huge amount and comes down on the same turn as this and is assured card draw while this isn't.
Connections have a more restrictive cost, and cost life and 1 mana/turn. The only played deck that have a dominant black part don't want connection most of the time. It's not a bad card, it just don't have a home.
Here is a short list of cards i can think of that kill this.
Searing Spear*
Tragic Slip*
Sever the bloodline
Pillar of flame
Supreme Verdict
Dreadbore
Olivia Ping*
brimstone volley*
compare this card with Mercurial Chemister and you can see where it will likely end up.
And this made all creatures killable by these unplayable? Because most creatures from the format dies for the same removal, and they still played.
"Dies to removal" is always a bad argument.
Also comparing with the chemister:
1 - chemister have higher CMC and is in colors that don't ramp to play it sooner. chemister earlier play is turn 5, this can enter turn 3.
2 - You can't take value out of the chemister when it ETB (unless you give it haste somehow and have 6 manas, wich probably would happen only on turn 6 anyway), so the chemister will have effect only on turn 6. You can take value from this one with the right setup, like the situation with the geist i mentioned or maybe ajani 3.0.
3 - For the chemister you must pay it's cost, IE: spend mana only for it. With this you're just getting extra value from actions that you would take anyway.
The piont is that card can't protect itself, it's fragile, but i think it's a card that is worth protecting, if you can stick it, you can extract huge value from it, specially because you don't have to spend extra resources on it, just play cards that you would play anyway.
Glad to see such cool artwork getting matched with a good card.
Lots of potential in EDH decks with counter synergy.
Imagine having Fathom Mage and Forgotten Ancient team up, yikes...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Real Men Play Aggro
EDH:
R Heartless Hidetsugu R Godo, Bandit Warlord G Kamahl, Fist of Krosa B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker RG Thromok the Insatiable WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
I like that the wording is more flexible than just "whenever ~ evolves" and triggers from any kind of +1/+1 counter... in block that means Scavenge becomes awesome. In Standard, maybe Increasing Savagery? Hunger of the Howlpack?
Simic is not disappointing.
I sense flickering Bond Beetles in the future. And in EDH this thing and graft is just...wow. And the fact Vig can just go find her really makes me hope the Dimir do get some competitive level mill. (silence, it does exist...the cameras just always blurry)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There is buried treasure everywhere...in a graveyard.
Sure, because a turn 2/3 geist, turn 3/4 creature with 4 CMC is a dream scenario that never ever happens!
Connections have a more restrictive cost, and cost life and 1 mana/turn. The only played deck that have a dominant black part don't want connection most of the time. It's not a bad card, it just don't have a home.
And this made all creatures killable by these unplayable? Because most creatures from the format dies for the same removal, and they still played.
"Dies to removal" is always a bad argument.
Also comparing with the chemister:
1 - chemister have higher CMC and is in colors that don't ramp to play it sooner. chemister earlier play is turn 5, this can enter turn 3.
2 - You can't take value out of the chemister when it ETB (unless you give it haste somehow and have 6 manas, wich probably would happen only on turn 6 anyway), so the chemister will have effect only on turn 6. You can take value from this one with the right setup, like the situation with the geist i mentioned or maybe ajani 3.0.
3 - For the chemister you must pay it's cost, IE: spend mana only for it. With this you're just getting extra value from actions that you would take anyway.
The piont is that card can't protect itself, it's fragile, but i think it's a card that is worth protecting, if you can stick it, you can extract huge value from it, specially because you don't have to spend extra resources on it, just play cards that you would play anyway.
I covered this argument in my post.
If a creature costs more then three mana it pretty much has to do something the turn in comes down or it isn't playable.
the only creature I can think of that sees play costs more then 3 mana and doesn't do something the turn it comes down is Olivia and if you untap with an olivia you have pretty much won the game.
it's not a rule, it's a opinion. In fact there's creatures with CMC 3+ and no ETB that are playable.
And she can do something the turn she ETB, it's conditional, but possible and not that hard to happen.
If you can untap with her, it's not hard to have her at 3/3 after drawing 2 cards.
I didn't say creatures need an etb i said they need to do something. Name 3 creatures that are standard playable with no effect the turn they are played and cost 4+ mana.
She is amazingly easy to deal with and will draw you maybe 2 cards. Play Inspiration it is instant and costs 1 mana less.
I always find it funny how cards are looked down upon first, and then some dude plays them at a tournament, wins, and suddenly it was totally obvious how good it was all along. Also, when a new card comes out, there always seem to be only two options, the first being "BROKEN!!" and the other one "limited bomb, constructed unplayable".
I dont think this will become a T2 staple or a 4-of in multiple decks. But it seems good enough to me to see some constructed play. The card will make sense in some decks, maybe as a 2- or 3-of. Obviously there will be no deck that really depends on this card, because it is just too vulnerable.
But aside from that annoying spike-talk ... I like this card. The new simic seem really cool. I will play Fathom Mage in casual, extensively.
That doesn't even consider all the natural ways she builds counters, all the creatures that will have other effects based on +1/+1 counters, like the OTHER spoiler we've gotten, and all the other effects that multiply the number of creatures that come out at a given time (Like Armada Wurm).
Furthermore, you don't have to "make" her work, her design makes her JUST work, and at the very least cuts out a removal spell in a deck that is going to be playing on it's synergies.
I believe she'll see play.
Dang I need to make a standard deck now. Deranged Hermit when did urza's legacy become legal, man I Love Squirrels. On topic I like the card for limited. without knowing the set it looks like it has potential.
Evolution is more than just strength. The mind evolves too. The flavor of this card is top notch. powerful too. Needed to be a 4 drop so it couldn't come out on turn 3.
But it can. Green does that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
If you want to play this girl just to combo her with Increasing Savagery, why don't you just play Deadbridge Goliath + Garruk, Primal Hunter? Draws you the same amount of cards, you get a 5/5 instead of a 6/6, you pay 1 mana more, but you don't get blown out by removal spells and your cards are actually good on their own.
It is a start, but you need more than that to make her work. Geist of Saint Traft followed up with her sounds more promising (and you'll get another reason to play Savagery).
The Mimeoplasm is licking his chops over this new option. >: ) Especially with Lord of Extinction-esque +1/+1 counter options! With reliquary tower, it leads to an insane hand.
Hunger of the Howlpack, Restoration Angel, Deadeye Navigator, Geist of Saint Traft... Oh, too bad that speculating with early spoilers always result in "not happening by any means", but, oh I'd love that Bant.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(Give your LGS judge a hug. He deserves it.)
Nothing. All I want is Heroes vs. Monsters spoilers.
If this is real...? Dear god, I hope it's not. While not pack rat power level, it would quickly get out of hand. Turn 5 attack with your weenie and let it die, play this, play Hunger of the Howlpack, draw three cards and have a 4/4 with evolve and its ability? Interesting
The power level isn't whacky, because in response, I play any instant speed removal that can kill a 1/1 with no defensive abilities and get a 3 for 1.
If you can protect it it's great, and it's possibly constructed-playable (possibly not), but not overpowered.
Ehh, I'm not convinced this card is any good. Seems a lot like Beguiler of Wills or Soul Seizer. High CC cards with interesting abilities tacked onto weak bodies don't see any play. Most decks don't have any problem dealing with a 1/1 by turn 3-4. And if you stuff your deck full of silly tricks to try and draw cards, you'll be getting 2 for 1'ed all day when you try and pull the trick.
The power level isn't whacky, because in response, I play any instant speed removal that can kill a 1/1 with no defensive abilities and get a 3 for 1.
If you can protect it it's great, and it's possibly constructed-playable (possibly not), but not overpowered.
Not just far from overpower, it won't play the way people here are thinking. I could even expect that Hunger of the Howlpack won't be played in this such decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(Give your LGS judge a hug. He deserves it.)
Nothing. All I want is Heroes vs. Monsters spoilers.
its a little bit like a planeswalker isn't it? you don't expect to use the body really. you just hope it lives for several turns so you can get value from it. it's pretty well positioned right now with thragtusk in the format. not good enough to build around (disciple/garruk are way more reliable as draw engines, and ramp to a million cast Sphinx's Revelation is even better), but if there's a UG creature-based deck that's missing 4-drops and wants some card draw, I can see this performing well.
Edit: come to think of it, I can't see this being better than Jace AoT without some wacky combo. can maybe see play as a singleton 5th Jace, but that's as far as I think itll go.
She is amazingly easy to deal with and will draw you maybe 2 cards. Play Inspiration it is instant and costs 1 mana less.
Ispiration can't block/eat removal/be protected to draw more cards/become a fattie after some draws. Also inspiration cost is the same.
The problem with people here is that they assume that new cards must be news JTMS. Good cards are trated as junk because they're not awesomely powerful.
People underated the new Jace, underated Angel of Serenity, underated Sphinx's Revelation, underated Deathrite Shaman. And they're all seeing play, different from the "this isn't constructed playable" people claimed.
This creature have great potential, people just need to think outside of the box. I'm not saying that it will surely see play and is a 4 of in all decks.
It already have great potential to be explored, and we have only 2 simic cards.
BTW.: if simcic brings more good "when a counter is placed" triggers, it might make Undying Evil playable on a BUG list.
One of those cards that needed to either cost less or have shroud to be constructed playable. But as I see it now, its once again great design and art wasted on a junk rare.
Now that I think of it, its actually bad enough to be the intro pack rare as well as the guild pack promo.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
i'm curious about the interaction with shambling shell: can I sac shell and dredge it if i put the counter on fathom mage?
Yes, you can. You sac the Shell, it hits the graveyard, THEN the ability resolves, you put a counter and trigger the draw with the shell already in the graveyard.
EDIT: Ow, cmon, why so much hate for the card? It's not TERRIBLE (nor broken or even good). It just is the kind of card that the clunky Johnny that every store has tries to build around. Its constructed material. Bad constructed material, but still is.
Not exactly. The gap between those cards and this card is ...enormous. I also don't remember many people talking about Angel of Serenity as anything other than a staple card in reanimator and ramp strategies...which is exactly what it is. Perhaps I just tune out the people who are clearly out of their mind, but from my perspective it seemed like people had a pretty good grip on the power level of both Vraska and Jace. At least the people that I didn't immediately disregard. I thought, as well as many, that Jace would be a decent card in hard control decks and that Vraska was a little too slow to be much more than a fringe card.
Dies to removal is a terrible argument but dies to every removal in the format without doing anything is not.
Here is a short list of cards i can think of that kill this.
Searing Spear*
Tragic Slip*
Sever the bloodline
Pillar of flame
Supreme Verdict
Dreadbore
Olivia Ping*
brimstone volley*
I just included cards that are at least semi playable and starred the ones that stopped you from drawing any cards
compare this card with Mercurial Chemister and you can see where it will likely end up.
Its power and toughness is of no relevance.
A potentially unlimited card draw, without mana investment, is a very dangerous card to print.
I am not saying that it would be broken for this specific card, I am just pointing out that it can be very easy to potentially break these cards.
Obviously I would rather see this at 3 too, but I completely understand why they would be hesitant printing it out.
Dont forget that the way this is worded, you will be able to draw two cards f.e. with talrand's evocation, or any other card that produces multiple creatures at the same time.
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
Connections have a more restrictive cost, and cost life and 1 mana/turn. The only played deck that have a dominant black part don't want connection most of the time. It's not a bad card, it just don't have a home.
And this made all creatures killable by these unplayable? Because most creatures from the format dies for the same removal, and they still played.
"Dies to removal" is always a bad argument.
Also comparing with the chemister:
1 - chemister have higher CMC and is in colors that don't ramp to play it sooner. chemister earlier play is turn 5, this can enter turn 3.
2 - You can't take value out of the chemister when it ETB (unless you give it haste somehow and have 6 manas, wich probably would happen only on turn 6 anyway), so the chemister will have effect only on turn 6. You can take value from this one with the right setup, like the situation with the geist i mentioned or maybe ajani 3.0.
3 - For the chemister you must pay it's cost, IE: spend mana only for it. With this you're just getting extra value from actions that you would take anyway.
The piont is that card can't protect itself, it's fragile, but i think it's a card that is worth protecting, if you can stick it, you can extract huge value from it, specially because you don't have to spend extra resources on it, just play cards that you would play anyway.
Lots of potential in EDH decks with counter synergy.
Imagine having Fathom Mage and Forgotten Ancient team up, yikes...
Real Men Play Aggro
EDH:
R Heartless Hidetsugu
R Godo, Bandit Warlord
G Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
RG Thromok the Insatiable
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
I sense flickering Bond Beetles in the future. And in EDH this thing and graft is just...wow. And the fact Vig can just go find her really makes me hope the Dimir do get some competitive level mill. (silence, it does exist...the cameras just always blurry)
There is buried treasure everywhere...in a graveyard.
I covered this argument in my post.
If a creature costs more then three mana it pretty much has to do something the turn in comes down or it isn't playable.
the only creature I can think of that sees play costs more then 3 mana and doesn't do something the turn it comes down is Olivia and if you untap with an olivia you have pretty much won the game.
And she can do something the turn she ETB, it's conditional, but possible and not that hard to happen.
If you can untap with her, it's not hard to have her at 3/3 after drawing 2 cards.
I didn't say creatures need an etb i said they need to do something. Name 3 creatures that are standard playable with no effect the turn they are played and cost 4+ mana.
She is amazingly easy to deal with and will draw you maybe 2 cards. Play Inspiration it is instant and costs 1 mana less.
I dont think this will become a T2 staple or a 4-of in multiple decks. But it seems good enough to me to see some constructed play. The card will make sense in some decks, maybe as a 2- or 3-of. Obviously there will be no deck that really depends on this card, because it is just too vulnerable.
But aside from that annoying spike-talk ... I like this card. The new simic seem really cool. I will play Fathom Mage in casual, extensively.
Dang I need to make a standard deck now. Deranged Hermit when did urza's legacy become legal, man I Love Squirrels. On topic I like the card for limited. without knowing the set it looks like it has potential.
But it can. Green does that.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Mind over Matter[/CARD]?
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
It is a start, but you need more than that to make her work. Geist of Saint Traft followed up with her sounds more promising (and you'll get another reason to play Savagery).
Completed sets:
Iamur — The Underwater Set
Overworld — Pirates vs. Octopuses
Esparand — The Sands of Time
Unfinished Sets:
Siege of Ravnica — Eldrazi in Ravnica
Shandalar — The Mana Set
Iamur Reimagined — Iamur v2
You can find more creative projects on my page Antaresdesigns!
(Give your LGS judge a hug. He deserves it.)
The power level isn't whacky, because in response, I play any instant speed removal that can kill a 1/1 with no defensive abilities and get a 3 for 1.
If you can protect it it's great, and it's possibly constructed-playable (possibly not), but not overpowered.
I predict this will be the rare I open 20 of.
Not just far from overpower, it won't play the way people here are thinking. I could even expect that Hunger of the Howlpack won't be played in this such decks.
(Give your LGS judge a hug. He deserves it.)
Edit: come to think of it, I can't see this being better than Jace AoT without some wacky combo. can maybe see play as a singleton 5th Jace, but that's as far as I think itll go.
The problem with people here is that they assume that new cards must be news JTMS. Good cards are trated as junk because they're not awesomely powerful.
People underated the new Jace, underated Angel of Serenity, underated Sphinx's Revelation, underated Deathrite Shaman. And they're all seeing play, different from the "this isn't constructed playable" people claimed.
This creature have great potential, people just need to think outside of the box. I'm not saying that it will surely see play and is a 4 of in all decks.
It already have great potential to be explored, and we have only 2 simic cards.
BTW.: if simcic brings more good "when a counter is placed" triggers, it might make Undying Evil playable on a BUG list.
Now that I think of it, its actually bad enough to be the intro pack rare as well as the guild pack promo.
Yes, you can. You sac the Shell, it hits the graveyard, THEN the ability resolves, you put a counter and trigger the draw with the shell already in the graveyard.
EDIT: Ow, cmon, why so much hate for the card? It's not TERRIBLE (nor broken or even good). It just is the kind of card that the clunky Johnny that every store has tries to build around. Its constructed material. Bad constructed material, but still is.
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)