I really hope it isn't transmute/transfigure because that mechanic is very plain. Somehow I don't think sacrificing a creature into another creature is very Dimir or shapeshifter like at all. I honestly have no idea what the ability will be, but I hope that its good. If Wizards could actually pull off milling and make it a decent deck, I'd be very surprised.
The issue with Dimir, I think, is that it's one of the Guilds whose Leader died in the original block, and that leader was more influential than most.
I think it's possible that there won't be a mill theme in Dimir at all this time. Not very likely, but wanting mill in Dimir because that's what it had last time is not necessarily a smart move.
Personally, the best mechanic that involves shapeshifting and twines neatly with Transmute would be a Body Double mechanic. Copying things in the graveyard, basically. If you don't restrict it to your own graveyard, it also works with milling.
If you believe (as I do) that the leaders inform the guild, then a shift from Szadek to Lazav would imply a shift from psychic vampirism (amply modeled by milling) to shapeshifting (whether Clone-based or something more exotic).
I really hope it isn't transmute/transfigure because that mechanic is very plain. Somehow I don't think sacrificing a creature into another creature is very Dimir or shapeshifter like at all. I honestly have no idea what the ability will be, but I hope that its good. If Wizards could actually pull off milling and make it a decent deck, I'd be very surprised.
I think that, while Transfigure is more flavorful than you're giving it credit, it's too complicated at common.
In terms of milling, one way to work is the infect/wither template: deal damage as milling. However, the flip side of that is that, in order to be effective, you'd need creatures with consistently high power - not really in flavor for U/B. Such an ability would also be super parasitic. Really, any mechanic centered around milling would be parasitic, which would be too bad for a guild mechanic.
Didn't we already get told one of the RTR commons has the dimir mechanic?
I remember seeing this somewhere too but I can't find the source. If this is the case, and the hint was on a U/B card from RTR, here's what we have to choose from: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&rarity=+[C]&set=+[%22Return%20to%20Ravnica%22]&color=|[U]|[B]+![R]+![W]+![G]&text=+![overload]+![unleash]+![detain]+![scavenge]
Ignoring the effects which aren't unique, that leaves only a few cards, most of which feature heavy milling.
how is transfigure being discussed? I thought we had already established that no guild mechanic would be a returning mechanic. Lets look for something different please, and quit discussing something it is comfirmed not to be!
The Viashino's flavor text referencing Orzhov might hint to its ability being the orzhov one, but a BW mechanic on a R card would be so strange. The vermin seems more likely to me (since orzhov is about death/payments). Stealer of Secrets is clearly a dimir agent, so I wouldn't be surprised if that is the mechanic straight up. Why it isn't keyworded then? So it can be reprinted out of Rav.
If the above is true, then maybe Dimir gets draw (intelligence), Orzhov gets discard (payment). Then there would be guild cards that care about what was drawn/discarded.
Crosstown Courier's ability on 10-12 cards just seems too strong to me. And it's wordy.
Crosstown Courier's ability on 10-12 cards just seems too strong to me.
You die to the damage from CtC well before you die to the milling. Adding more creatures with the ability to the mix doesn't change the fact that the damage stacks up way faster than the mill.
You die to the damage from CtC well before you die to the milling. Adding more creatures with the ability to the mix doesn't change the fact that the damage stacks up way faster than the mill.
20/2=10. ~50/2=25.
True, and thats why dedicated mill cards mill A LOT more than the equal in damage.
And even that brutal mill cards tend to be very bad.
The dimir mill that actual worked in ravnica was the 1/4 wall that slowly milled them to death, or the controlling one that exiled cards to controll what they draw (which was crazy brutal if you are mana screwd or flooded).
And the 2 mana mill 10 , which sounds cool, but you need a bunch of them that it has any meaningfull effect.
Together than dredge was kinda nice to mill themself and beside that it had no crazy graveyard theme.
Overall i think its quite unlikely to have such a mill mechanic and as they are away from tutoring transmute i doubt we see transfigure or similiar mechanics.
Dimir seems most likely to get a big overhaul, similiar to the Azorious detain, which is totally not like forecast.
You die to the damage from CtC well before you die to the milling. Adding more creatures with the ability to the mix doesn't change the fact that the damage stacks up way faster than the mill.
20/2=10. ~50/2=25.
I'm thinking that Courier's ability is quite relevant and very deadly. Instead of thinking "Damage kills before Mill," think of it as "~ deals damage and mills their good cards to the graveyard," which is powerful.
The only down-side to mill being used again is Reanimator shenanigans which would then call for Rest in Peace.
I'm thinking that Courier's ability is quite relevant and very deadly. Instead of thinking "Damage kills before Mill," think of it as "~ deals damage and mills their good cards to the graveyard," which is powerful.
You could think of it this way, but you shouldn't.
Here's the accurate way to think about it - When I get hit with Courier and he mills two, what are the odds that those "good cards" could have been at the bottom of my library? Barring Mirage style tutors, it's the same that they're at the top of my library.
So this means that the resource denial you're implying is nonexistent. Sure, Mill decks have won in the past in certain environments, but only because they were part of an infinite combo. Mill alone, in the form you're describing, is not a powerful effect.
And then Ash Zealot would start to make more sene. When sinker is out, you can hate the dimir mechanic with it (assuming it involves you casting those cards).
I wouldn't be surprised to see some version of transfigure on the Dimir guild leader, similar to how Rakdos got 'paincast' on their guild leader. As a mechanic for the entire guild it is fairly empty though. Perhaps some variation on Ninjitsu and/or synergy with Ninjitsu? The Duels deck for Dimir was pretty heavy on unblockable creatures, so something to do with that? (Maybe some form of 'when this deals combat damage to a player, do XXX)
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
The biggest issue to Mill being a good guild mechanic is limited. They're kind of stuck in the sense that they have to design mill for 2 formats, one with like 30 life (limited) and one with 50 life (constructed).
Unless you're willing to completely forgo (save a mythic or two) an entire guild from being good at constructed, mill isn't a good guild mechanic to get. And they also want things to be somewhat synergistic. Milling your opponents doesn't work well with anything we really have (and is super anti-synergistic to both decks in limited - GB - and in constructed - flashback. Maybe something like self-mill + muscle burst / accumulated knowledge would fit well (copy once for each copy of the card in your GY).
I'm hoping for a keyword for thieving magpie. And it would even have backing as a dimir already a la shadowmage infiltrator. Though, to be fair, that's also the ability I'm hoping for simic so my Edric deck can get all the love
I'm hoping for a keyword for thieving magpie. And it would even have backing as a dimir already a la shadowmage infiltrator. Though, to be fair, that's also the ability I'm hoping for simic so my Edric deck can get all the love
That would be a nice keyword, but I feel like that it's more core set worthy, like an evergreen mechanic, although I guess it could appear in this set for Dimir.
Sorry if this has already been thrown out there, but what about self milling for getting a boost out of a dimir card?
I am basing this off of the fact that in the guild information that came out earlier on the dimir, which stated that the agents of the guild would sometimes after completing a mission would have their or someone's memory wiped to help cover thing up.
So maybe a 1/1 creature that you can make unblockable at the price of milling a number of cards.
The biggest issue to Mill being a good guild mechanic is limited. They're kind of stuck in the sense that they have to design mill for 2 formats, one with like 30 life (limited) and one with 50 life (constructed).
Unless you're willing to completely forgo (save a mythic or two) an entire guild from being good at constructed, mill isn't a good guild mechanic to get. And they also want things to be somewhat synergistic. Milling your opponents doesn't work well with anything we really have (and is super anti-synergistic to both decks in limited - GB - and in constructed - flashback. Maybe something like self-mill + muscle burst / accumulated knowledge would fit well (copy once for each copy of the card in your GY).
I'm hoping for a keyword for thieving magpie. And it would even have backing as a dimir already a la shadowmage infiltrator. Though, to be fair, that's also the ability I'm hoping for simic so my Edric deck can get all the love
Is any of the RtR Guilds are good in Constructed? How many cards with the guild mechanic on them are currently playable in Standard? Like one or two from each Guild? And if you are talking about casual Constructed, then mill was always a viable strategy in casual.
That would be a nice keyword, but I feel like that it's more core set worthy, like an evergreen mechanic, although I guess it could appear in this set for Dimir.
Tbh this would be super disappointing. The guild mechanics this time around are pretty flavourful, and that thieving-style mechanic is just mono-blue, not really black. If you added a discard to it or something it'd be a little more flavourful, though maybe a touch too good.
Sorry if this has already been thrown out there, but what about self milling for getting a boost out of a dimir card?
I am basing this off of the fact that in the guild information that came out earlier on the dimir, which stated that the agents of the guild would sometimes after completing a mission would have their or someone's memory wiped to help cover thing up.
So maybe a 1/1 creature that you can make unblockable at the price of milling a number of cards.
thats interesting. Or what about, since dimir is about extracting information, maybe your opponent is given the option of milling in order to reduce an effect. Such as "bargain - target creature is unblockable unless defending player puts the top X cards from their library into the graveyard"
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I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
What about Destroy the Evidence? I wonder how this could be translated into a mechanic, but the Dimir are even referenced in the card which makes it seem slightly more likely to be it.
The biggest issue to Mill being a good guild mechanic is limited. They're kind of stuck in the sense that they have to design mill for 2 formats, one with like 30 life (limited) and one with 50 life (constructed).
Unless you're willing to completely forgo (save a mythic or two) an entire guild from being good at constructed, mill isn't a good guild mechanic to get. And they also want things to be somewhat synergistic. Milling your opponents doesn't work well with anything we really have (and is super anti-synergistic to both decks in limited - GB - and in constructed - flashback. Maybe something like self-mill + muscle burst / accumulated knowledge would fit well (copy once for each copy of the card in your GY).
I'm hoping for a keyword for thieving magpie. And it would even have backing as a dimir already a la shadowmage infiltrator. Though, to be fair, that's also the ability I'm hoping for simic so my Edric deck can get all the love
Because there is some anti-synergy isn't a reason wizards won't do it, not for any format. They put archive trap and the eldrazi in the same block lol
Not that I'm predicting mill will be part of any of the mechanics. I hate speculation. I'm just saying you're wrong
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The issue with Dimir, I think, is that it's one of the Guilds whose Leader died in the original block, and that leader was more influential than most.
I think it's possible that there won't be a mill theme in Dimir at all this time. Not very likely, but wanting mill in Dimir because that's what it had last time is not necessarily a smart move.
Personally, the best mechanic that involves shapeshifting and twines neatly with Transmute would be a Body Double mechanic. Copying things in the graveyard, basically. If you don't restrict it to your own graveyard, it also works with milling.
If you believe (as I do) that the leaders inform the guild, then a shift from Szadek to Lazav would imply a shift from psychic vampirism (amply modeled by milling) to shapeshifting (whether Clone-based or something more exotic).
I think that, while Transfigure is more flavorful than you're giving it credit, it's too complicated at common.
In terms of milling, one way to work is the infect/wither template: deal damage as milling. However, the flip side of that is that, in order to be effective, you'd need creatures with consistently high power - not really in flavor for U/B. Such an ability would also be super parasitic. Really, any mechanic centered around milling would be parasitic, which would be too bad for a guild mechanic.
I remember seeing this somewhere too but I can't find the source. If this is the case, and the hint was on a U/B card from RTR, here's what we have to choose from: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&rarity=+[C]&set=+[%22Return%20to%20Ravnica%22]&color=|[U]|[B]+![R]+![W]+![G]&text=+![overload]+![unleash]+![detain]+![scavenge]
Ignoring the effects which aren't unique, that leaves only a few cards, most of which feature heavy milling.
If this is true, then the list is short;
Crosstown Courier
Stealer of Secrets
Drainpipe Vermin (you draw or they discard)
Viashino Racketeer
The Viashino's flavor text referencing Orzhov might hint to its ability being the orzhov one, but a BW mechanic on a R card would be so strange. The vermin seems more likely to me (since orzhov is about death/payments). Stealer of Secrets is clearly a dimir agent, so I wouldn't be surprised if that is the mechanic straight up. Why it isn't keyworded then? So it can be reprinted out of Rav.
If the above is true, then maybe Dimir gets draw (intelligence), Orzhov gets discard (payment). Then there would be guild cards that care about what was drawn/discarded.
Crosstown Courier's ability on 10-12 cards just seems too strong to me. And it's wordy.
You die to the damage from CtC well before you die to the milling. Adding more creatures with the ability to the mix doesn't change the fact that the damage stacks up way faster than the mill.
20/2=10. ~50/2=25.
True, and thats why dedicated mill cards mill A LOT more than the equal in damage.
And even that brutal mill cards tend to be very bad.
The dimir mill that actual worked in ravnica was the 1/4 wall that slowly milled them to death, or the controlling one that exiled cards to controll what they draw (which was crazy brutal if you are mana screwd or flooded).
And the 2 mana mill 10 , which sounds cool, but you need a bunch of them that it has any meaningfull effect.
Together than dredge was kinda nice to mill themself and beside that it had no crazy graveyard theme.
Overall i think its quite unlikely to have such a mill mechanic and as they are away from tutoring transmute i doubt we see transfigure or similiar mechanics.
Dimir seems most likely to get a big overhaul, similiar to the Azorious detain, which is totally not like forecast.
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I'm thinking that Courier's ability is quite relevant and very deadly. Instead of thinking "Damage kills before Mill," think of it as "~ deals damage and mills their good cards to the graveyard," which is powerful.
The only down-side to mill being used again is Reanimator shenanigans which would then call for Rest in Peace.
You could think of it this way, but you shouldn't.
Here's the accurate way to think about it - When I get hit with Courier and he mills two, what are the odds that those "good cards" could have been at the bottom of my library? Barring Mirage style tutors, it's the same that they're at the top of my library.
So this means that the resource denial you're implying is nonexistent. Sure, Mill decks have won in the past in certain environments, but only because they were part of an infinite combo. Mill alone, in the form you're describing, is not a powerful effect.
And then Ash Zealot would start to make more sene. When sinker is out, you can hate the dimir mechanic with it (assuming it involves you casting those cards).
I hope this means I get to play with Havengul Lich in standard
the flavor text clearly states she is not a dimir agent and she has no watermark.
Unless you're willing to completely forgo (save a mythic or two) an entire guild from being good at constructed, mill isn't a good guild mechanic to get. And they also want things to be somewhat synergistic. Milling your opponents doesn't work well with anything we really have (and is super anti-synergistic to both decks in limited - GB - and in constructed - flashback. Maybe something like self-mill + muscle burst / accumulated knowledge would fit well (copy once for each copy of the card in your GY).
I'm hoping for a keyword for thieving magpie. And it would even have backing as a dimir already a la shadowmage infiltrator. Though, to be fair, that's also the ability I'm hoping for simic so my Edric deck can get all the love
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That would be a nice keyword, but I feel like that it's more core set worthy, like an evergreen mechanic, although I guess it could appear in this set for Dimir.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
I am basing this off of the fact that in the guild information that came out earlier on the dimir, which stated that the agents of the guild would sometimes after completing a mission would have their or someone's memory wiped to help cover thing up.
So maybe a 1/1 creature that you can make unblockable at the price of milling a number of cards.
Is any of the RtR Guilds are good in Constructed? How many cards with the guild mechanic on them are currently playable in Standard? Like one or two from each Guild? And if you are talking about casual Constructed, then mill was always a viable strategy in casual.
Tbh this would be super disappointing. The guild mechanics this time around are pretty flavourful, and that thieving-style mechanic is just mono-blue, not really black. If you added a discard to it or something it'd be a little more flavourful, though maybe a touch too good.
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thats interesting. Or what about, since dimir is about extracting information, maybe your opponent is given the option of milling in order to reduce an effect. Such as "bargain - target creature is unblockable unless defending player puts the top X cards from their library into the graveyard"
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
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I would, since MaRo said it won't be a returning mechanic and that would be a returning mechanic.
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Because there is some anti-synergy isn't a reason wizards won't do it, not for any format. They put archive trap and the eldrazi in the same block lol
Not that I'm predicting mill will be part of any of the mechanics. I hate speculation. I'm just saying you're wrong
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