You know, after thinking about it and reading old Guildpact cards, I think it would've been more in flavor if it read "Target opponent must pay 1 or lose 1 life and you gain life". That way the "tax" theme would've shined through stronger. Of course, people would then cry about how it gives your opponent a choice and therefore it sucks.
That's exactly what I said, though. In the scenario you gave, the only value you got out of it was a single extort activation, on the 3rd turn when you cast Altar's Reap. What you had was very durdly on the whole; a deck playing Gravecrawler/Diregraf Ghoul and Blood Artist is not a deck that wants to be playing Altar's Reap (probably not extort land, either). In my opinion, an extort land is about on the power level of Cathedral of War, though I think it would only need one of only producing colorless or CIPT, not both.
You know, after thinking about it and reading old Guildpact cards, I think it would've been more in flavor if it read "Target opponent must pay 1 or lose 1 life and you gain life". That way the "tax" theme would've shined through stronger. Of course, people would then cry about how it gives your opponent a choice and therefore it sucks.
We had a mechanic that made the opponent pay, and that was horrible and leads to extrem horrible boring game states, as its "correct" to keep mana open to not get punished, and so nothing happens.
I am liking extort a lot and I know its a bit early to discuss it, but how good the cards with extort need to be able to deal with Restoration Angel / Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation in Type 2?
I am liking extort a lot and I know its a bit early to discuss it, but how good the cards with extort need to be able to deal with Restoration Angel / Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation in Type 2?
Well the keyword has barely any interaction of any of those. So... a random value fatty with extort on it?
Well the keyword has barely any interaction of any of those. So... a random value fatty with extort on it?
I think he was talking about how Tusk/Angel and Sphinx's Revelation are currently the benchmarks of top playable cards in standard.
Personally, I would argue that the fact that these cards are the benchmarks make Extort a pretty good prospect. If the best cards to play in standard are 5 mana creature that is made better by keeping 4 mana open on subsequent turns, an instant that is just a bad Divination until you start paying about 6 mana for it, and a 7 mana creature that is frequently hardcast, then I'd say that's a good indication that standard is pretty slow at the moment (I remember days when Thragtusk would have been a non-issue, because the card would have been forced discarded or the player would have been dead before getting to 5 mana).
I agree that this particular creature is too weak for Standard play. However, the mechanic itself will definitely show its worth on a few cheap cards. As people have pointed out before, these small drains add up, especially if games are expected to last for many turns. All we need is some kind of Pacifism/O-Ring/Cheap Wall or (one can dream) Ghostly Prison effect. Even a cheap creature with first strike or the right kind of protections will do it.
When Gruul, Boros and Simic all show up, Bant Control may have to start adjusting as the first 2 add speed to the meta, while the 3rd adds more dimensions to tempo.
Well the keyword has barely any interaction of any of those. So... a random value fatty with extort on it?
Sorry for being so vague, I was wondering how much impact will the "lose life" part of Extort have when we have decks like Naya, Jund, Bant and Esper that have means of gaining life in both short and long term.
A land with Extort? No way, is a very bad idea even if only give colorless mana, possibility of being to powerful in the right conditions.
[CARD]
Cathedral of War [/CARD] is a card. I see no problem with
Orhzov Graveyard Land (R)
Orhzov Graveyard enters the battlefield tapped
Add 1 to your mana pool
Extort
It would be right on par with Cathedral. Both effects hurt your opponent for 1 additional damage, and both require some other action to be taken to trigger their effect. I think the fact you need to pay a mana to extort balances the 1 life gained. Cathedral is still probably a littel better since multiple Cathedrals don't require any extra resources to gain the benefit
[CARD]
Cathedral of War [/CARD] is a card. I see no problem with
Orhzov Graveyard Land (R)
Orhzov Graveyard enters the battlefield tapped
Add 1 to your mana pool
Extort
It would be right on par with Cathedral. Both effects hurt your opponent for 1 additional damage, and both require some other action to be taken to trigger their effect. I think the fact you need to pay a mana to extort balances the 1 life gained. Cathedral is still probably a littel better since multiple Cathedrals don't require any extra resources to gain the benefit
see no reason why it needs to CIPT. we already have a guild lane in RtR that doesnt come into play tapped.
this is a first pick hands down. Fat body. Splashable. Awesome recursion ability. Late game reach.
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Saying that you sometimes wish people (in this case the implication is the staff) would fall down a well and get AIDS is hardly appropriate for the forum.
the mechanic is underpowered and will not really impact constructed as i would hope. It doesn't have a new flavor, seems so simple and lacks creativity. For me, it's worse than the rakdos ability.
the mechanic is underpowered and will not really impact constructed as i would hope. It doesn't have a new flavor, seems so simple and lacks creativity. For me, it's worse than the rakdos ability.
On the other hand, the card is ok. JUST ok.
Well they stated with 10 new mechanics in this block they didn't want a repeat of Time Spiral block where new players felt wayyy overwhelmed.
The average block has nowhere near this many new mechanics usually. Nearly every mechanic in the original Ravnica block were fairly simple and not many saw constructed play. Crap if it wasn't for the broken level of dredge nearly every original Ravnica block mechanic would be forgettable.
Well they stated with 10 new mechanics in this block they didn't want a repeat of Time Spiral block where new players felt wayyy overwhelmed.
Time Spiral was my favorite block ever. The time-shifted cards from the 1st block of the set.... just amazing. Beyond amazing. The newbs may have felt left out but the people who had been playing since the start..... it was just the most amazing thing ever to get one last chance to play those cards again.
Time Spiral was my favorite block ever. The time-shifted cards from the 1st block of the set.... just amazing. Beyond amazing. The newbs may have felt left out but the people who had been playing since the start..... it was just the most amazing thing ever to get one last chance to play those cards again.
It wasn't that they felt left out it was the fact that if you had no clue about the mechanics beforehand it was really intimidating.
I mean if your first set was Time Spiral going into a tournament or even busting a few booster packs would get really confusing. They had a lot of mixed responses on Time Spiral long time players loved it newer players were not as happy about the block. To make matters worse the best decks in the format were extremely skill heavy and hard to master so even if the new player got through the first gate of learning all the mechanics, if he wanted to compete at the highest level he had to learn some damn hard to master decks.
I've been playing since Revised I really enjoyed Time Spiral, but I could see the problems some players may have had with it.
It wasn't that they felt left out it was the fact that if you had no clue about the mechanics beforehand it was really intimidating.
I mean if your first set was Time Spiral going into a tournament or even busting a few booster packs would get really confusing. They had a lot of mixed responses on Time Spiral long time players loved it newer players were not as happy about the block. To make matters worse the best decks in the format were extremely skill heavy and hard to master so even if the new player got through the first gate of learning all the mechanics, if he wanted to compete at the highest level he had to learn some damn hard to master decks.
I've been playing since Revised I really enjoyed Time Spiral, but I could see the problems some players may have had with it.
Right no I agree, this isn't really relevant to the thread anyways. I quit playing after time spiral and just started playing again in scars..... lonnnnnggggg break.
But anyways I can see how the time spiral analogy relates to what they're doing in ravnica. The keywords being introduced here make other sets look simple by comparison. A few random keywords like Soulbond and Fateful Hour look simple compared to the complexities of inter-guild mechanics... when if you step back and look at things the keywords like soulbond are something hard for newbs to comprehend.
I've been playing long enough that they could introduce any random keyword, they could introduce a thousand keywords, and I know "Alright, read the card, look at the card, read the reminder text, understand the card. There ya go." But it isn't so simple for newbs. This is something that I think a lot of people forget.
Well they stated with 10 new mechanics in this block they didn't want a repeat of Time Spiral block where new players felt wayyy overwhelmed.
The average block has nowhere near this many new mechanics usually. Nearly every mechanic in the original Ravnica block were fairly simple and not many saw constructed play. Crap if it wasn't for the broken level of dredge nearly every original Ravnica block mechanic would be forgettable.
I don't see the comparison with Time Spiral block being based that that block was created of nostalgia factor. besides that, I second the opinion that Time Spiral was a little overwhelming but it had a lot of competitive mechanics that were both simple and effective.
Return to ravnica is a massive success in both mechanics (excepting Rakdos one) and flavor, which both contribute to a great diverse metagame.
The thing is that comparing with previous ravnica, This non-skilled **** called extort has nothing creative and wastes the whole potential of the guild.
Of the 4 mechanics of Gatecrash there are 2 (Evolve and Batallion) that glimpse playbility, fun and skill...Extort and bloodrush seem that they lack edge.
I don't see the comparison with Time Spiral block being based that that block was created of nostalgia factor. besides that, I second the opinion that Time Spiral was a little overwhelming but it had a lot of competitive mechanics that were both simple and effective.
Return to ravnica is a massive success in both mechanics (excepting Rakdos one) and flavor, which both contribute to a great diverse metagame.
The thing is that comparing with previous ravnica, This non-skilled **** called extort has nothing creative and wastes the whole potential of the guild.
Of the 4 mechanics of Gatecrash there are 2 (Evolve and Batallion) that glimpse playbility, fun and skill...Extort and bloodrush seem that they lack edge.
With the exception of Unleash, all of the RtR guild abilities were not really used. For Overload it's basically Mortars and that's it. And then Dreg Mangler to some small extent is used.
I think when they are designing abilities like this, it's mostly for limited.
To make matters worse the best decks in the format were extremely skill heavy and hard to master so even if the new player got through the first gate of learning all the mechanics, if he wanted to compete at the highest level he had to learn some damn hard to master decks.
and heres the problem with todays magic. why is this a BAD thing?
With the exception of Unleash, all of the RtR guild abilities were not really used. For Overload it's basically Mortars and that's it. And then Dreg Mangler to some small extent is used.
I think when they are designing abilities like this, it's mostly for limited.
Thats how the vast majority of mechanics go anyways.
It is rare to see a deck built around a mechanic outside of block. I mean it takes something on the level of Madness to really become a force in the meta.
Why isn't this Extort 1 - (W/B)? Or like Channel, Extort - Whenever you pay a spell, you may pay (W/B). If you do, do some stuff? Or something? This mechanic is way too narrow, poorly executed, and really cumbersome to use. An Orzhov mechanic that taxes yourself in order to do things? That doesn't sound like the Orzhov way!
Why isn't this Extort 1 - (W/B)? Or like Channel, Extort - Whenever you pay a spell, you may pay (W/B). If you do, do some stuff? Or something? This mechanic is way too narrow, poorly executed, and really cumbersome to use. An Orzhov mechanic that taxes yourself in order to do things? That doesn't sound like the Orzhov way!
Well, at least Evolve is pretty interesting.
Extort isn't Extort 1 because you can use multiple instances of it on a single spell? (Extort on two cards allows you to pay (W/B)(W/B) on each spell (or less than that) to have your opponent lose life and for you to gain life.
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you and me both. but sadly that i think that is HIGHLY unlikely. maybe they will get a pacifism with extort but it will most likely cost 4....
That's exactly what I said, though. In the scenario you gave, the only value you got out of it was a single extort activation, on the 3rd turn when you cast Altar's Reap. What you had was very durdly on the whole; a deck playing Gravecrawler/Diregraf Ghoul and Blood Artist is not a deck that wants to be playing Altar's Reap (probably not extort land, either). In my opinion, an extort land is about on the power level of Cathedral of War, though I think it would only need one of only producing colorless or CIPT, not both.
We had a mechanic that made the opponent pay, and that was horrible and leads to extrem horrible boring game states, as its "correct" to keep mana open to not get punished, and so nothing happens.
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
Well the keyword has barely any interaction of any of those. So... a random value fatty with extort on it?
I think he was talking about how Tusk/Angel and Sphinx's Revelation are currently the benchmarks of top playable cards in standard.
Personally, I would argue that the fact that these cards are the benchmarks make Extort a pretty good prospect. If the best cards to play in standard are 5 mana creature that is made better by keeping 4 mana open on subsequent turns, an instant that is just a bad Divination until you start paying about 6 mana for it, and a 7 mana creature that is frequently hardcast, then I'd say that's a good indication that standard is pretty slow at the moment (I remember days when Thragtusk would have been a non-issue, because the card would have been forced discarded or the player would have been dead before getting to 5 mana).
I agree that this particular creature is too weak for Standard play. However, the mechanic itself will definitely show its worth on a few cheap cards. As people have pointed out before, these small drains add up, especially if games are expected to last for many turns. All we need is some kind of Pacifism/O-Ring/Cheap Wall or (one can dream) Ghostly Prison effect. Even a cheap creature with first strike or the right kind of protections will do it.
Give it time.
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
Sorry for being so vague, I was wondering how much impact will the "lose life" part of Extort have when we have decks like Naya, Jund, Bant and Esper that have means of gaining life in both short and long term.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
[CARD]
Cathedral of War [/CARD] is a card. I see no problem with
Orhzov Graveyard
Land (R)
Orhzov Graveyard enters the battlefield tapped
Add 1 to your mana pool
Extort
It would be right on par with Cathedral. Both effects hurt your opponent for 1 additional damage, and both require some other action to be taken to trigger their effect. I think the fact you need to pay a mana to extort balances the 1 life gained. Cathedral is still probably a littel better since multiple Cathedrals don't require any extra resources to gain the benefit
see no reason why it needs to CIPT. we already have a guild lane in RtR that doesnt come into play tapped.
Dear kbx41,
You have received a warning at MTG Salvation Forums.
Reason:
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Saying that you sometimes wish people (in this case the implication is the staff) would fall down a well and get AIDS is hardly appropriate for the forum.
I have 28 different EDH decks
a permanent with extort(CMC 3 or low)
another permanent with extort
Heartless Summoning
Cloudstone Curio
Mesmeric Orb
Extraplanar Lens
Damping Matrix
Chrome Mox
Tangleroot
Gemstone Array
Orochi Leafcaller
Myr Retriever
Ornithopter
Welding Jar
Phyrexian Altar
Nomadic Elf
On the other hand, the card is ok. JUST ok.
Well they stated with 10 new mechanics in this block they didn't want a repeat of Time Spiral block where new players felt wayyy overwhelmed.
The average block has nowhere near this many new mechanics usually. Nearly every mechanic in the original Ravnica block were fairly simple and not many saw constructed play. Crap if it wasn't for the broken level of dredge nearly every original Ravnica block mechanic would be forgettable.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Time Spiral was my favorite block ever. The time-shifted cards from the 1st block of the set.... just amazing. Beyond amazing. The newbs may have felt left out but the people who had been playing since the start..... it was just the most amazing thing ever to get one last chance to play those cards again.
It wasn't that they felt left out it was the fact that if you had no clue about the mechanics beforehand it was really intimidating.
I mean if your first set was Time Spiral going into a tournament or even busting a few booster packs would get really confusing. They had a lot of mixed responses on Time Spiral long time players loved it newer players were not as happy about the block. To make matters worse the best decks in the format were extremely skill heavy and hard to master so even if the new player got through the first gate of learning all the mechanics, if he wanted to compete at the highest level he had to learn some damn hard to master decks.
I've been playing since Revised I really enjoyed Time Spiral, but I could see the problems some players may have had with it.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Right no I agree, this isn't really relevant to the thread anyways. I quit playing after time spiral and just started playing again in scars..... lonnnnnggggg break.
But anyways I can see how the time spiral analogy relates to what they're doing in ravnica. The keywords being introduced here make other sets look simple by comparison. A few random keywords like Soulbond and Fateful Hour look simple compared to the complexities of inter-guild mechanics... when if you step back and look at things the keywords like soulbond are something hard for newbs to comprehend.
I've been playing long enough that they could introduce any random keyword, they could introduce a thousand keywords, and I know "Alright, read the card, look at the card, read the reminder text, understand the card. There ya go." But it isn't so simple for newbs. This is something that I think a lot of people forget.
I don't see the comparison with Time Spiral block being based that that block was created of nostalgia factor. besides that, I second the opinion that Time Spiral was a little overwhelming but it had a lot of competitive mechanics that were both simple and effective.
Return to ravnica is a massive success in both mechanics (excepting Rakdos one) and flavor, which both contribute to a great diverse metagame.
The thing is that comparing with previous ravnica, This non-skilled **** called extort has nothing creative and wastes the whole potential of the guild.
Of the 4 mechanics of Gatecrash there are 2 (Evolve and Batallion) that glimpse playbility, fun and skill...Extort and bloodrush seem that they lack edge.
With the exception of Unleash, all of the RtR guild abilities were not really used. For Overload it's basically Mortars and that's it. And then Dreg Mangler to some small extent is used.
I think when they are designing abilities like this, it's mostly for limited.
and heres the problem with todays magic. why is this a BAD thing?
Thats how the vast majority of mechanics go anyways.
It is rare to see a deck built around a mechanic outside of block. I mean it takes something on the level of Madness to really become a force in the meta.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Well, at least Evolve is pretty interesting.
Extort isn't Extort 1 because you can use multiple instances of it on a single spell? (Extort on two cards allows you to pay (W/B)(W/B) on each spell (or less than that) to have your opponent lose life and for you to gain life.
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