Why isn't this Extort 1 - (W/B)? Or like Channel, Extort - Whenever you pay a spell, you may pay (W/B). If you do, do some stuff? Or something? This mechanic is way too narrow, poorly executed, and really cumbersome to use. An Orzhov mechanic that taxes yourself in order to do things? That doesn't sound like the Orzhov way!
Well, at least Evolve is pretty interesting.
Like a lot of other mechanics like Overload, the Extort are only bonuses. It doesn't make the mechanic bad because you can't activate it every time you want to. How does it even tax yourself? It's not like cumulative upkeep for crying out loud. It's not the end of the world if you don't use the ability.
I think this is a very cool ability in limited that will suck in constructed unless they put it on something that's already efficient and cheap that would possibly go well with lingering souls (two triggers, COMBO!!! lol)
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I like this mechanic. It's very grindy value without being stupidly obvious (a la Huntmaster), it works really well with Flashback, and it's good for casual EDH multiplayer. It's a good control deck mechanic, letting you gain bonus incremental value out of your card advantage.
But like everyone said, for Standard, it really depends what they put it on. A nice 3 mana O-Ring with Extort would make for a great control deck card, pair it with Lingering Souls and you really have something. If there's a 1 drop defensive extort guy, that works wonders too. Contrary to what people think, you are not going to curve out every turn.
Treasury Thrull himself is fantastic in limited, probably unplayable in Standard and, again, really good in casual EDH multiplayer. I kind of want to make a B/W drain deck with Well of Lost Dreams and Soul Warden effects now. Can't wait to see the B/W guild leader.
All we need is some kind of Pacifism/O-Ring/Cheap Wall or (one can dream) Ghostly Prison effect.
Now that I think about it though, Pillory of the Sleepless already exists, so a Pacifism variant with Extort would not be that exciting by itself. True, Pillory doesn't have life gain which is probably the more important half for a control deck, but it's free.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
It's fragile because it has no form of protection and it has no effect on the board when it comes into play. Most of the good creatures nowadays have one of those two things. It's a big problem for an expensive creature to have.
It isn't playable by any non-casual constructed standards. Who is analyzing rares for their limited playability? It's a big creature with an ability, that can make it ok in limited. That isn't news to anyone.
Who is analyzing rares for their limited playability?
Every pro player? While I can't claim that, because I don't know what each player does, but most PTQs and Grand Prix are limited formats and pro players play in them to go to pro tours.
I'm not saying Limited is better (I prefer constructed casual and EDH because I'm a Johnny), but Limited is awesome and I try to make it to all my FNMs.
What I mean is that this creature is bad. It is bad because many other creatures are better than this creature. A simple example is Sun Titan, a fairly good card that does almost exactly the same thing but dramatically better.
Look, I'm not saying this Thrull will see competitive play, because few cards will ever see that. (But then again, Chronic flooding was considered an unplayable card but was key to winning a Standard Grand Prix recently). I'm saying it's playable, and shouldn't be dismissed because it doesn't compare to an overpowered card from a different block.
I'n on the fence about this one. This looks like a really strong mechanic, definitely sexier than the others on paper, but it remains to be seen how well it plays. I wonder whether we will see any versions of Cipher on instants, as otherwise invisible stalker/ spirit decks will be the main guys looking to utilise it. In limited, Ciphering will just lead to loads of 2 for 1's people will be able to play around them.
The pre release will be interesting as this seems to be the combined complexity of nivmagus elemental and haunt, both of which confused players about how they were meant to be played. I guess at least one mechanic has to have some complexity.
It does when it costs 6 mana, because of the mathematics of reaching six mana. In a normal game, without ramp, you will be casting this later than turn six, when each spell needs to impact the board in some way. This doesn't do that, and doesn't really do anything significant, even if you have a lot of mana. Maybe gain a couple extra life, before it dies.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
My first thought with abilities like this is always "that's going to be a pain in the butt in MTGO" as every time you cast a spell, every one of your Extort abilities will trigger. Gonna be a lot of Orzhov players going to time in draft.
mana cost is a very relevant factor for needing to either effect the board when it comes into play or having removal resiliency, having your 1/2 drop answered by a 2 drop removal spell is not a blow out in any sense, having your 6 drop answered by a 2 mana spell without netting CA before it dies is.
its the reason why nefarox(wich is a stronger card then this) has not seen any play yet.
and those 2 4 drops are not only 2 mana cheaper(or out on the field about 4 turns earlier) but also dominate the board quickly when not answered, wich is something this will not do.
It does when it costs 6 mana, because of the mathematics of reaching six mana. In a normal game, without ramp, you will be casting this later than turn six, when each spell needs to impact the board in some way. This doesn't do that, and doesn't really do anything significant, even if you have a lot of mana. Maybe gain a couple extra life, before it dies.
I know it costs 6 CMC, I know that's almost never turn 6 when you resolve this, I know that a 6 CMC thing should effect the board more then just putting a 4/4 in the way when it resolves.
That's not the point I'm arguing. I am arguing that fragility is not the only factor for if a card is good or bad, and I'm arguing that definition of 'fragile' is a not a useful one, at least to me, because I think there should be more then just 'is and is not fragile'. I think of at least in, resilient, normal, and fragile levels.
This card is a combo piece, it will be good or bad depending on what other cards they print to go with it. This card is not trying to be the six drop that dominates the board by itself. It wants enable something. What is it trying to enable? I have no idea, we haven't seen the rest of the cards yet.
There is a huge Limited crowd, a growing casual Modern and EDH crowd. Judging a card to be good or bad solely on whether or not it will see competitive constructed play is not good enough.
I like the guild mechanic, dislike the creature it is attached to for the reasons mentioned many times previously. Re: 4/4 for 6 mana, multicoloured cost requirement even, is pretty underwhelming. Having to attack to get any extra benefit outside of the guild mechanic is even more underwhelming though it can loop with another copy of itself to be an expensive nuisance.
I like the guild mechanic, dislike the creature it is attached to for the reasons mentioned many times previously. Re: 4/4 for 6 mana, multicoloured cost requirement even, is pretty underwhelming. Having to attack to get any extra benefit outside of the guild mechanic is even more underwhelming though it can loop with another copy of itself to be an expensive nuisance.
Titans were ridiculous strong, so they move back, make big stuff "less" annoying broken.
If your 6 drop is so powerfull that ramping in it is a game plan by itself, is kind of boring, and i really did not enjoy that format with titans, everything had to compete against titans or it was "unplayable".
6 mana 4/4 is not a big problem by itself, and the mechanic has much card advantage, which is also great.
the card is still not good for constructed, which is so much aggro right now (or a ton of mass removal and ramp into big, be it by reanimation or ramping mana).
T2 is fun, has many different decks, but in general its to build decks that survive aggro, and then finish big.
I'm just underwhelmed by extort in general. Will play like a tack-on ability for spells you cast, but it requires a low curve and is not a reliable repeatable mana-sink, as it is a 'whenever' ability.
Prospective commander implications are better simply because it drains EACH opponent so you gain more life overall, but incidental life gain is cute in cmdr but not a viable win condition in the least.
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I was hoping for something a little less black and white (no pun intended) for Orzhov. Haunt may have been a mechanic that made people hate using their brain for, but it had interesting potential if it was given more practical spells. Extort does not seem very imagined to me. I'm bleeding you. Cool. It's not like the Orzhov didn't have enough cards to establish that theme already without it being a keyword. I would have rather had them expand on the concept of collecting debts as a mechanic in some other way. I understand Extort has implications outside of the typical forms of bleeding but it's just not very inventive to me.
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When you lose to back-to-back Banefires in limited, only to learn they were both passed to the opponent during the draft, you begin to question the stability of your playgroup.
I may be a fan and I may be a boy, but I am by no means a "fanboy."
Yeah, I guess I can't readily imagine too many interesting places they could go with this mechanic, it just seems piecemeal. I probably just wanted something splashier than haunt. Time and spoilers will tell, I guess.
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I once met a man from Seattle
When posting he never did prattle
He was quite a nice bloke
Always quick with a joke
With Magic Cards, he always did battle.
I think once Extort ends up on some more control-oriented cards, (big defenders, Pacifism-style Auras) people will start seeing things the Orzhov way.
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Like a lot of other mechanics like Overload, the Extort are only bonuses. It doesn't make the mechanic bad because you can't activate it every time you want to. How does it even tax yourself? It's not like cumulative upkeep for crying out loud. It's not the end of the world if you don't use the ability.
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I think this is a very cool ability in limited that will suck in constructed unless they put it on something that's already efficient and cheap that would possibly go well with lingering souls (two triggers, COMBO!!! lol)
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But like everyone said, for Standard, it really depends what they put it on. A nice 3 mana O-Ring with Extort would make for a great control deck card, pair it with Lingering Souls and you really have something. If there's a 1 drop defensive extort guy, that works wonders too. Contrary to what people think, you are not going to curve out every turn.
Treasury Thrull himself is fantastic in limited, probably unplayable in Standard and, again, really good in casual EDH multiplayer. I kind of want to make a B/W drain deck with Well of Lost Dreams and Soul Warden effects now. Can't wait to see the B/W guild leader.
Now that I think about it though, Pillory of the Sleepless already exists, so a Pacifism variant with Extort would not be that exciting by itself. True, Pillory doesn't have life gain which is probably the more important half for a control deck, but it's free.
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I will agree, by your definition, this guy is fragile, but then so is every other creature, Bloodline Keeper, Olivia Voldaren, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman. Good cards, way more fragile than the Thrull. Being fragile doesn't make it a bad card.
Every pro player? While I can't claim that, because I don't know what each player does, but most PTQs and Grand Prix are limited formats and pro players play in them to go to pro tours.
I'm not saying Limited is better (I prefer constructed casual and EDH because I'm a Johnny), but Limited is awesome and I try to make it to all my FNMs.
That's akin to saying, 'Mana Leak is unplayable because Force of Will or Counterspell does the same thing but better'
Look, I'm not saying this Thrull will see competitive play, because few cards will ever see that. (But then again, Chronic flooding was considered an unplayable card but was key to winning a Standard Grand Prix recently). I'm saying it's playable, and shouldn't be dismissed because it doesn't compare to an overpowered card from a different block.
I was thinking that I didn't like this painter at all just before I read your comment lol.
The pre release will be interesting as this seems to be the combined complexity of nivmagus elemental and haunt, both of which confused players about how they were meant to be played. I guess at least one mechanic has to have some complexity.
It does when it costs 6 mana, because of the mathematics of reaching six mana. In a normal game, without ramp, you will be casting this later than turn six, when each spell needs to impact the board in some way. This doesn't do that, and doesn't really do anything significant, even if you have a lot of mana. Maybe gain a couple extra life, before it dies.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Know what I like most about this though? My Tragic Slips just got sooo much more awesome.
There is buried treasure everywhere...in a graveyard.
I know it costs 6 CMC, I know that's almost never turn 6 when you resolve this, I know that a 6 CMC thing should effect the board more then just putting a 4/4 in the way when it resolves.
That's not the point I'm arguing. I am arguing that fragility is not the only factor for if a card is good or bad, and I'm arguing that definition of 'fragile' is a not a useful one, at least to me, because I think there should be more then just 'is and is not fragile'. I think of at least in, resilient, normal, and fragile levels.
This card is a combo piece, it will be good or bad depending on what other cards they print to go with it. This card is not trying to be the six drop that dominates the board by itself. It wants enable something. What is it trying to enable? I have no idea, we haven't seen the rest of the cards yet.
There is a huge Limited crowd, a growing casual Modern and EDH crowd. Judging a card to be good or bad solely on whether or not it will see competitive constructed play is not good enough.
Titans were ridiculous strong, so they move back, make big stuff "less" annoying broken.
If your 6 drop is so powerfull that ramping in it is a game plan by itself, is kind of boring, and i really did not enjoy that format with titans, everything had to compete against titans or it was "unplayable".
6 mana 4/4 is not a big problem by itself, and the mechanic has much card advantage, which is also great.
the card is still not good for constructed, which is so much aggro right now (or a ton of mass removal and ramp into big, be it by reanimation or ramping mana).
T2 is fun, has many different decks, but in general its to build decks that survive aggro, and then finish big.
Might be nice to see a different thing.
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Prospective commander implications are better simply because it drains EACH opponent so you gain more life overall, but incidental life gain is cute in cmdr but not a viable win condition in the least.
When posting he never did prattle
He was quite a nice bloke
Always quick with a joke
With Magic Cards, he always did battle.
I may be a fan and I may be a boy, but I am by no means a "fanboy."
When posting he never did prattle
He was quite a nice bloke
Always quick with a joke
With Magic Cards, he always did battle.
Real Men Play Aggro
EDH:
R Heartless Hidetsugu
R Godo, Bandit Warlord
G Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
RG Thromok the Insatiable
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
sort of like a Sublime Archangel extortionist?
"You may pay 0 instead of W/B whenever you extort."
It would also need a sublime archangelesk body underneath to be worth it.
Feel free to tell me yours!
Say 4 mana to get 1/2 the lifegain of a Faith's Fetters and only able to target creatures? Not excited.
But in Limited, at least it would be better than Arrest. Yay Limited for making us welcome unexciting cards.
It would be nice to get a couple other Modern playables out of this set. But 1 mana for 1 life drain just doesn't get there.
But...but...I thought of it first Q.Q
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