no can't be countered cycle

  • #51


    Awesome! Thumbs Up

    Good to hear that they won't continue this sad excuse of a cycle, just tagging "uncounterable" to stuff seems like poor and lazy design imho.
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  • #52
    All I want is another card like Cytoshape in the symic and I'll be happy. that was one of the silliest and most fun cards I have ever played with, besides wild ricochet
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  • #53
    Quote from empathogen

    My complaint is that this "cycle" is just the five color pairs in RtR,
    which have no real connection other than being chosen for RtR.


    Sorry, but this one bugs me. You're wildly contradicting yourself within the same sentence. The reason that they're those chosen color pairs is BECAUSE they're in Return to Ravnica. Their connection is that they're in Return to Ravnica.

    If a policeman is investigating a series of deaths and comes to the conclusion that all the dead have nothing in common except that they attended a banquet last Friday night and ordered the chicken, guess what? That's the connection. You'd be a (sub-par) policeman to ignore it.

    If Gatecrash got the uncounterable cycle, it would seem just as arbitrary. Probably more so, given that Orzhov has no business having an uncounterable spell.

    Bigger picture, on topic stuff: Besides, do we really need 10 uncounterable spells in standard? 5 is a whole lot, but each uncounterable spell would see diminishing returns. Shooting counterspells in the gut 10 times isn't necessary when 5 shots will do. Plus, there would be a few 3 color combinations that would get access to at least two very playable uncounterable spells, if not 3. I don't want to play a deck with Abrupt Decay, Loxodon Smiter, AND a theoretical 4 mana uncounterable Vindicate. As it stands, you'd have to play a particular 3 color combo to get access to two.
    Last edited by PorcelainGod: 10/4/2012 11:37:55 AM
  • #54
    Quote from 9909
    I won't try to pretend that I understand WotC R&D but he does have a cogent argument as to the Orzhov, chiefly, not having an uncounterable spell; however, I do feel like rules could be broken or the borders pushed to accommodate one cycle (or so-called guild cycle, even if there's not that much that shouts that they're guild cards other than the colors of the card).

    I too don't like the inequality in 5 colors, somewhat arbitrarily chosen, having uncounterable cards in a cycle but there's not much that can be done. We'll see what we get in time.

    These colours were not arbitrarily chosen. It followed a set of rules that were on about:

    1. Not having all the guilds from one of the previous 3 Ravnica sets together in one set.
    2. Getting at least 2 of the 3 Dissension sets in RTR, so they had more playtime because they had less last time.
    3. Getting each colour to be represented at least once.

    Now the first two rules probably ruled out an ''allied, enemy'' colour thing, and they didnt want to do that anyway because Ravnica is one of those occasions where you can deviate from that path, as everything is equal. In the end, I think there were only 2 options for the distribution between sets, and Ken Nagle chose one as he wanted to design for both Izzet and Golgari.

    MaRo didnt agree with Abrupt Decay being uncounterable, but let it through for the sake of having the whole cycle complete. If they had done this in GTC and not in RTR, he would have probably done the same for an Orzhov card (exile target nonland permanent with CMC 3 or less).

    Also, I dont think a standard would like to have 10 constructed pushed cards that cant be countered. It would be a smack in the face of control players a little too hard. This will give GTC some room to get new stuff in. I think they will also devise a constructed worthy cycle for GTC with a different denominator.
    Last edited by Trivmvirate: 9/25/2012 10:02:52 AM
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  • #55
    Quote from Sliver Lord
    This was pretty obvious since the cycle first became known. A BW uncounterable spell is just not something you can do.


    I was indeed waiting for such spell...
    guess now we either get a good charm or still we'll get nothing, as usual... Mad
  • #56
    The same exact thing happened in Shadowmoor/Eventide too remember? So I'm not surprised at all.


    Shadowmoor/Eventide together had all 10 combinations like Ravnica, all used the avatars, all had similar 1 drops and many similar cycles, etc etc. Yet only Eventide used cycles of Hatchlings, Hedge-mages, Mimics, etc and only Shadowmoor had cycles of Duos, Hideaways, Witches, etc.

    In Ravnica, we'll keep the cycles of Guild leaders, shocklands, gates, guildmages, keyrunes and all may have a cycle of champions, but I can see everything else drop (maybe charms could? not sure).

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  • #57
    there will probably be something for the other guilds in GTC.

    Done by Rivenor!!! Thanks

  • #58
    Good news. 5 uncounterable cards is enough to keep blue decks in check.
  • #59
    I think I remember someone saying like a "When you cast X spell..." Maybe all the next 5 cards are going to be creatures, as opposed to this cycle being all non-creatures
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  • #60
    Quote from Biefall
    I think I remember someone saying like a "When you cast X spell..." Maybe all the next 5 cards are going to be creatures, as opposed to this cycle being all non-creatures


    You mean like how Loxodon Smiter is a non-creature....?

    I will be very upset if the replacement cycle (if there is one) is all creatures. I am very tired of Wizards pushing the "turn me sideways" strategies, especially in Dimir, a rather non-creature based guild, color combination, as well as my personal favorite that I have high hopes for.
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  • #61
    Quote from Blad01
    Good news. 5 uncounterable cards is enough to keep blue decks in check.

    Well, it could be if blue decks ran countermagic in the first place.

    Obviously I'm personally mostly concerned with Standard, though what makes these cards good isn't really the 'can't be countered' part.
  • #62
    Quote from gheta
    The same exact thing happened in Shadowmoor/Eventide too remember? So I'm not surprised at all.


    Shadowmoor/Eventide together had all 10 combinations like Ravnica, all used the avatars, all had similar 1 drops and many similar cycles, etc etc. Yet only Eventide used cycles of Hatchlings, Hedge-mages, Mimics, etc and only Shadowmoor had cycles of Duos, Hideaways, Witches, etc.

    In Ravnica, we'll keep the cycles of Guild leaders, shocklands, gates, guildmages, keyrunes and all may have a cycle of champions, but I can see everything else drop (maybe charms could? not sure).


    but they were 'complete' cycles, weren't they? They were accounted for in all color combinations that made sense

    (Hedge-Mages were in enemy color pairs, so were the mimics and hatchlings, witches were allied-colored. Hideaways were accounted for in each color, etc)

    RtR had 3 allied color guilds and 2 enemy colored guilds, hence the general discontentment here. I don't mind that there aren't going to be any, although I'd have loved to see Gruul get a sick beater that couldn't be countered
  • #63
    Quote from daedalusaf
    but they were 'complete' cycles, weren't they? They were accounted for in all color combinations that made sense

    (Hedge-Mages were in enemy color pairs, so were the mimics and hatchlings, witches were allied-colored. Hideaways were accounted for in each color, etc)

    RtR had 3 allied color guilds and 2 enemy colored guilds, hence the general discontentment here. I don't mind that there aren't going to be any, although I'd have loved to see Gruul get a sick beater that couldn't be countered


    Kind of. There were 10 2-color combinations and some cycles were only for enemy pairs and some were for friendly pairs. I don't really think their effects made sense to not have them in the other 5 color combinations though.

    The point I was trying to make though, is one set had a cycle for its 5 2-color combinations, and the next set could ignore it and have its own cycles for its separate 5 2-color combinations. Yet some cycles went through all 10 2-color combinations.

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  • #64
    Quote from DrJones
    Last time I checked, there were counterspells in every color, plus artifacts.



    And how many playable counterspells are mono red/black/green/white? Not quite relevant argument. There is a blue direct dmg spell, therefore dmg effects are not of red color pie?
  • #65
    Quote from DrJones



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  • #66
    The new cycle will be hexproof spells.
  • #67
    Quote from nick_yan
    And how many playable counterspells are mono red/black/green/white? Not quite relevant argument. There is a blue direct dmg spell, therefore dmg effects are not of red color pie?
    Here's a list of relevant cards. Note that some of these counterspells would only be relevant against some of the cards in this cycle (unless the deck playing them also plays Painter's Servant, which happens more often than not)

  • #68
    Just because they made something years ago (guttural response aside, wich is still considered a mistake) doesn't mean that every color can have counters today.

    Magic in it's early years were a lot less organized than today color-pie wise.

    Judges familiar has the counter ability because its blue, and white is secondary in counters. way behind but can have some sort of counters with taxing.

    artifacts use gimicks for that and even then it's way more costly and restriced.
  • #69
    Quote from empathogen
    That's a really strange, stupid decision, IMO.

    I *hate* partial cycles, especially when they're as color-random as this!
    (see Torment)


    Thanks, WotC- now I won't have cool (U/B)(G/U)(W/B)(W/R) uncounterables :p
    Mad Slant Mad


    This cycle only works with R or G guilds, and a few stretches in U guilds. Since RtR has four guilds with R or G, it's a lot less sketchy than making Dimir and, specially, Orzhov uncounterables. It would just make no sense.

    Still, don't be sad about the other 5 guilds. They'll get a rare cycle of their own, with a different characteristic tying them together.
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  • #70
    I will be surprised if there are not Gruul uncounterables.
  • #71
    Quote from Lienwein
    Just because they made something years ago (guttural response aside, wich is still considered a mistake) doesn't mean that every color can have counters today.

    Magic in it's early years were a lot less organized than today color-pie wise.

    Judges familiar has the counter ability because its blue, and white is secondary in counters. way behind but can have some sort of counters with taxing.

    artifacts use gimicks for that and even then it's way more costly and restriced.
    The cycle was designed with legacy in mind. These counters are legacy-legal and played in legacy decks, and although the uncounterable cycle will be useful against blue counterspells, they will also be useful against the nonblue ones (specially the ones that counter blue spells), so it's false that they are designed just to hose blue, they are designed to hose a mechanic that is present and used in every color (and I should note there are many more examples that I did not list because the parent poster only asked for the "good" ones).

    Also, the mistake is not that guttural response counters spells without being a blue card itself, the mistake is that WotC took the most important and powerful effect in the game, which was spread among all colors, and put it solely in blue. Judge's Familiar is a shy attempt to fix that huge misstep, and it's hybrid partly so that they don't have to admit they were wrong. Expect more white counterspells in the future, now that there's precedent.
    Last edited by DrJones: 9/26/2012 9:34:50 AM
  • #72
    Sorry but i don't agree. every color is good at something and bad at something. the game always changing. and blue got counters because it fits it's share of the color pie. as i said, white is second but ways behind and its gotta have some taxing effect for it to make sense.

    Saying that every color should get counters because in the past it was like that is regression not progression.

    based on the color pie, I agree that having a cycle of 10 uncounterable cards is too much, and i call its a smart decision from them not to make 10 cards.

    especialy if one o them is Orzhov. wich has no reason to have it.
  • #73
    No, I say more colors should get counters because it's good design, and the decision to move them all into one single color was a bad design choice that has been hurting the game ever since. The fact that white is getting counterspell effects now is because only recently has WotC realized their mistake.

    In that aspect, the earlier sets were better designed than most of the sets that came after them, because counterspells were spread among the colors. It's not the first time that this has happened. For example, M10 was miles better than the preceding core sets because they went back to alpha to find the things Richard Garfield got right and that the current designers (Mark Rosewater specifically) got wrong.
  • #74
    This is unfortunate, but I'm sure there will be some kind of awesome cycle in Gatecrash.


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  • #75
    I'm assuming the Gatecrash cards will have their own different cycles, however. That's fine with me, too. I feel like that many uncounterable cards is a little bit of an overkill.
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