no can't be countered cycle

  • #26
    Quote from Lord Void
    IThat is, there is no reason five of the guilds get an uncounterable cycle, and the other do not. Not for flavor reasons, nor design, nor any others that I can think of.




    The reason is that wizards said so. And thats all that matters. They own this game not the fans, and not you.
    Originally Posted by Massive Marc
    You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
  • #27
    Huh?! Counterflux is quite good.
    Different strokes, I suppose,
    but it's going into every deck I make.


    A 3 mana hard counter is pretty bad. The overload clause is hardly ever relevant, and will most likely only catch a bad player off guard anyways, since most people very rarely (if ever) throw multiple instants on the stack anyways (especially in standard). It's effect also just does not compare to an uncounterable smother for any (non-land?) permanent, or an uncounterable wrath of god...it's just very, very average.
  • #28
    I'm ok with this, but I would have rather seen something like... each allied guild getting an uncounterable, then having the cycle split between two sets. I actually like how they did that with DKA, leaving cycles incomplete for flavor reasons. There are countless ways for the Gatecrash guilds to make up for not having uncounterable cards.. it's incredibly premature to say they're "getting the finger"

    As a U kid, I can relate to the lack of symmetry.. but if it's any consolation, each color individually got an equal amount of uncounterable love, so there's that..
  • #29
    Quote from Napoleon
    The reason is that wizards said so. And thats all that matters. They own this game not the fans, and not you.


    Good companies do not base their practices off of said policies. Good companies realize that fans/consumers pay their expenses and paychecks. I am not saying that Wizards is a bad company, nor that they are not listening to their players, because that would be false. I am, however, saying that your logic is piss-poor, and that if you ran a company, that much would show.

    Do you understand the concept of flavor? How about symmetry? Your "argument" makes it seem like you simply take what is given to you like a blind fool. I am not saying that you are wrong in your idea that only what Wizards says matters, but unfortunately in this situation saying such a thing makes you look rather like you do not understand many of the concepts that Wizards tries to please their customer base with. If you cannot offer a better argument than this, you simply don't have one.

    This is not a subject I fervently oppose, but the appalling ignorance of the people on this forum makes me cringe with the thought that I very well could have been born with a mind set to such similar limits; exceedingly strict ones.
    Last edited by Lord Void: 9/24/2012 8:33:01 PM
    Quote from Mockingbird
    While Blue is a color that should receive a lot of spite, the color that I hate the most is Dredge.


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  • #30
    We wouldn't want counterspells to become completely obsolete, would we?

    That would obviate the whole point of having spells that can't be countered.

    I find the Azorious uncounterable quite strange, personally. What need does a BLUE mage have of an uncounterable spell? It's nice to have, sure, but wasn't part of the point of playing blue having one's own counterspells to protect critical spells, a sweeper for example?

    I'd much rather see uncounterable mixed with non-blue colors.

    I understand that they're trying to give the format the means to deal with this Delver creature that they (for unfathomable reasons) printed. I'm not complaining about Delver (I play Legacy where it doesn't dominate to the same extent, and I probably wouldn't care even if I DID play standard anyhow).

    Would have been nice to get some more uncounterables though. I like the idea.
    All Hail the Mono-Colored. "Thank You for Playing Force of Will so I Don't Have To. Thank You for Making Blood Moon Great." Founder: Anti-Blue Alliance (Just Say "Yes" to Spells!) Down with Reactionaries!!!
  • #31
    Quote from Scarap
    A 3 mana hard counter is pretty bad. The overload clause is hardly ever relevant, and will most likely only catch a bad player off guard anyways, since most people very rarely (if ever) throw multiple instants on the stack anyways (especially in standard). It's effect also just does not compare to an uncounterable smother for any (non-land?) permanent, or an uncounterable wrath of god...it's just very, very average.

    This is a pretty good point, but it also reveals something that (I think!) is really great news.. creating incentives to make elaborate stacks seems like a pretty neat area for design space.

    Maybe G/U mana Flash creatures with ETB bonuses for each creature spell on the stack? Obviously the idea is quite fetal at this point.. just a thought!
  • #32
    Quote from Scarap
    A 3 mana hard counter is pretty bad. The overload clause is hardly ever relevant, and will most likely only catch a bad player off guard anyways, since most people very rarely (if ever) throw multiple instants on the stack anyways (especially in standard). It's effect also just does not compare to an uncounterable smother for any (non-land?) permanent, or an uncounterable wrath of god...it's just very, very average.


    the overload clause makes it an UNCOUNTERABLE answer to storm. Having played sacland tendrils in legacy, I'd love an uncounterable answer to flusterstorm in a meta where everyone is playing countertop
  • #33
    Quote from Ballerstatus
    This is a pretty good point, but it also reveals something that (I think!) is really great news.. creating incentives to make elaborate stacks seems like a pretty neat area for design space.

    Maybe G/U mana Flash creatures with ETB bonuses for each creature spell on the stack? Obviously the idea is quite fetal at this point.. just a thought!


    LOVE IT.
    Maybe make it any spell so you you can do tricksy things.

    If the Simic Keyword were something like, say,
    "Consume X: This creature has Flash, and ETB with X +1/+1 counters,
    where X is the number of spells on the stack (including this one),"
    I'd be all over it.

    They could even make a new Mystic Snake/Draining Whelk type thing that gets "Consume" or whatever,
    which I would totally eat up if it doesn't cost too much to cast :p

    Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic,
    but that Consuming Mystic Snake would make for a really awesome Simic uncounterable Mad

    Azorius
    SimicSimic
    Orzhov
    Reprint Stasis!
    Control needs more love.
    Dimir

    EDH:

    :simic:Momir Vig, Simic Visionary:simic:
    :izzet:Melek, Izzet Paragon:izzet:
    :dimir:Oona, Queen of the Fae:dimir:
    :azorius:Bruna, Light of Alabaster:azorius:
    :boros:Gisela, Blade of Goldnight:boros:
    :golgari:Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord:golgari:
    :dimir:Sen Triplets:orzhov:
    :simic:The Mimeoplasm:dimir:
    WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
  • #34
    Like they said, the WB one wouldn't have made sense. I bet Gatecrash will have some exclusive cycles too, I'm not too worried.
    "The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
  • #35
    Hmm. So I was wrong, then. I hope they make a functionally useful equivalent in gtc.
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  • #36
    Quote from Firebrand
    Good. Supreme Verdict and Abrupt Decay were the only ones that were needed to keep Delver in check.


    Rotation is going to keep Delver in check more than those 2 cards.


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  • #37
    its amazing on how many people dont read the developement articles to explain how these cycles or what not are not going to continue. the logic for the cant be counter is explained like this. there are three colors that cannot be countered can appear on cards. red, green, and blue. counterflux is alright because it red. and its a spell. so its legit. its also blue and a spell. so its double legit. surprime verdict. is blue. blue gets an uncounterable spell once in a blue moon. last time it used it was darksteel with Lastword. green white elephant man is okay cause its green. green gets uncounterble creatures. the rakdos uncounterble is okay cause its a red spell. the only card that really had to stretch was abrupt decay. cause its not a dude. it was a pushed cycle by development. MaRo pushed the charm cycle. the thing about ravinca block it was designed really weird. first. Rtr was a set by itself. its drafted by itself. gatecrash will be drafted by itself. and when sinker hits. all three have to mesh. so in reality what we are looking for is when the 3rd set releases. then we will have all the pieces. so if you look at it from a top down view. its not a block its a set. a reallly big set.
    I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.:o
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  • #38
    Quote from zemanjaski
    Orzhov - Black will do anything to win.


    How does this in any way translate into an uncounterable spell?

    Even if we were to follow this logic, does this mean that black gets access to every single effect in the game now?
  • #39
    Quote from Wotkay
    How does this in any way translate into an uncounterable spell?

    Even if we were to follow this logic, does this mean that black gets access to every single effect in the game now?


    Well black was originally sold as being able to do things it normally couldn't by making a greater sacrifice than the color it normally belongs to. This hasn't really ever entered design space but it is extremely flavorful. I don't see an issue with giving black things it doesn't normally receive if there is an additional payment of sorts.
    There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary, those who don't, and those who don't realize this joke is in ternary.
  • #40
    Quote from Wotkay
    How does this in any way translate into an uncounterable spell?

    Even if we were to follow this logic, does this mean that black gets access to every single effect in the game now?


    http://magiclampoon.com/blog/2011/02/19/wizards-realizes-that-any-color-can-be-justified-as-doing-anything-part-2/
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    Standard: W/R Aggro
  • #41
    Reactive parasitism was just as horrible a cycle now as it was a mechanic in split second- moreso if anything, with the even more limited scope. Maybe its necessary for metagame checks and balances in small slot usage, but 5 was ridiculous.
    Anyway, for an incomplete cycle remember that GTC will bring incomplete cycles of its own no doubt, a complement to this tragedy, hopefully not as so. Like the mega-mega cycle, there is often better space for design without perfect symmetry. Some lopsidedness is a good thing
    PSA- With BNG having many 'opponents choice' effects and not just in tribute, it helps to know how to evaluate such mechanics:

    Whenever a mechanic gives an opponent his choice of one of multiple options, the ability is overall worth less than the least of these options, made worse by how different the options are and better by your ability to manipulate this choice. In most cases you have no meaningful way to influence your opponents choice.
  • #42
    I hope they continue the pushed 1-drop uncommon hybrid cycle. Would like to see what Gruul and Boros have to offer
  • #43
    Quote from Wotkay
    How does this in any way translate into an uncounterable spell?

    Even if we were to follow this logic, does this mean that black gets access to every single effect in the game now?


    My whole post was a joke. Sorry for the confusion. Another poster linked to the article I was referring to. Enjoy!

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  • #44
    Quote from ferro_man
    From Maro's article Card Day's Night, he confirms that the cycle of uncounterable spells and creatures will not continue in Gatecrash[/I]this probably could have gone into a GTC known info thread, but no one has started one yet

    That is a shame; this was shaping up to be a nice little option.
    Maybe we will get some in the third set...
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  • #45
    In the original Ravnica block, all the cycles that were begun in the first set were completed in the following sets. It was what people expected, after all, but it did lead to increased clutter and predictability. MaRo has commented on this in the past.

    This time around the Wizards have made a conscious design decision not to continue all of RtR cycles. If you'd read MaRo's design articles on this, you wouldn't be surprised.

    And think of the upside: There's gonna be *new* cycles in Gatecrash. Cycles there would scarce be room for were it otherwise. If they didn't do this, Gatecrash would seem a bit boring once it rolls around. Sure it's nice and exciting to look at an existing cycle and speculate on how it's finished but there's still plenty cycles for that.

    As for the uncounterable cycle being one of the discontinued ones, the most recent article implies that if they'd felt compelled to finish all cycles, this one would probably not have seen the light of day. It could exist only by the happy coincidence that the color wheel didn't have to be broken (only slightly stretched) to fit the effect on RtR's guild color combinations.

    To the people who complain that there's no reason for this, that it's so random: I suggest you read MaRo's design articles more regularly. You might not agree with the reasoning, but there's always a reason for big design decisions.
  • #46
    Quote from Silvermyr
    I find this very disappointing. I just wonder what Wotc would do for the other 5 guilds to baklance them though.


    It´s not like they cant make cycle of cards that are equally powerfull... -.- what if orzhova got vindicate? Then everyone would be like "omg RTR guilds got worse cycle". Yes, abrubt decay is a great card but the uncounterable cycle as a whole?

    I´m fine with them not making 10 cards over 2 sets that are made to own only one color of the pie.
  • #47
    Quote from thetrueshyguy
    Kinda lame in my opinion. 5 guilds get the "Can't be countered." touch, the other 5 get the finger. They really could do 5 more and I doubt we'd see much complaint.


    Maybe the other five guilds get something else that's cool?
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  • #48
    I won't try to pretend that I understand WotC R&D but he does have a cogent argument as to the Orzhov, chiefly, not having an uncounterable spell; however, I do feel like rules could be broken or the borders pushed to accommodate one cycle (or so-called guild cycle, even if there's not that much that shouts that they're guild cards other than the colors of the card).

    I too don't like the inequality in 5 colors, somewhat arbitrarily chosen, having uncounterable cards in a cycle but there's not much that can be done. We'll see what we get in time.
  • #49
    Quote from nick_yan
    It´s not like they cant make cycle of cards that are equally powerfull... -.- what if orzhova got vindicate? Then everyone would be like "omg RTR guilds got worse cycle". Yes, abrubt decay is a great card but the uncounterable cycle as a whole?

    I´m fine with them not making 10 cards over 2 sets that are made to own only one color of the pie.
    Last time I checked, there were counterspells in every color, plus artifacts.

    Having a cycle of uncounterable cards is good, because the top places at tournaments have been historically blue since the beginning of the game due to very poor design decisions from WotC's part, and only recently they have started to print cards that you can play in a meta infested with decks packing counterspells.

    It was stupid that the only meta choice against blue in legacy was playing blue yourself, with lord of atlantis and free counterspells. At least Cavern of Souls makes nonblue tribal decks playable again.

    Quote from Gorganoth »
    Maybe the other five guilds get something else that's cool?

    In the second set of a block? keep dreaming.
  • #50
    I'm glad. This cycle was boring and I don't think you need that much counterhate. Its cool for older formats but otherwise uninspiring.

    Hope we see another, cooler cycle.


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