It's a shame, I was looking for more uncounterable toys. Counter-spells are such a nuisance in my local meta that I either have to make a creature-heavy deck and tack on 4 Cavern of Souls or make a counter-blue deck to deal and in the latter scenario I'd rather not play.
Well we have cards that actual hate discard and protection etc. hates burn the same way as hexproof and the like hate removal.
Indestructible hates destroy effects and persist/undying are quite nasty aswell.
the "can't" be countered is just something to work around counterspells, that otherwise allow nearly no interaction.
In the past that was actual a great deal of why Counterspell was removed from printing. If a blue player has UU open they could simply counter you card, no matter what and you could do nothing about it.
Right now we have plenty of room to play against pretty much anything, so magic allows more interactions at different levels.
I understand, but we STILL have people complaining about counterspells when there is flashback, a can't be countered cycle, a land that stops countering certain creatures AND you could tally scavenge in there.
Also Dissipate and syncopate are the two useable counterspells in standard and they are not bad, but not near the power of mana leak or counterspell(which I would be a BAD idea to reprint counterspell or mana leak with snappy around)
What I was saying was people are complaining way TOO much. I have been on the receiving end of being countered eight times in one game but I still had fun, matter of fact it was hilarious. Oh by the way i still won.
In the end, yes there was something needed to counteract(no pun intended) counterspells besides countering them, but we do HAVE that in a lot of cards. Also there are quite of feel flash creatures in standard that help you against that stuff. I could go on and on but there is no reason to complain anymore about counterspells.
The balance to counterspells is that they can only be cast at the time of the casting...
If your opponent drops their bomb, and you draw Counterspell the next turn, you die.
If they cast it and you were tapped out with a hand of counterspells, you die.
If those were doom blades instead, you would be fine.
But if the card is Geist of Saint Traft, you're screwed with tbe doomblades, and okay with the counterspells... except the counterspells still have their restrictions.
It's really not unbalanced, its just more annoying than other things.
The balance to counterspells is that they can only be cast at the time of the casting...
If your opponent drops their bomb, and you draw Counterspell the next turn, you die.
If they cast it and you were tapped out with a hand of counterspells, you die.
If those were doom blades instead, you would be fine.
But if the card is Geist of Saint Traft, you're screwed with tbe doomblades, and okay with the counterspells... except the counterspells still have their restrictions.
It's really not unbalanced, its just more annoying than other things.
very well put. Most of the time they have something in their hand like a threat they want to play but can't because they want to leave mana open for countering where as removal you don't have to worry about that.
I have a feeling that this is just a partial cycle.
BW getting something uncounterable wouldn't make a lot of sense.
GR, makes sense.
UG, makes sense.
UB, Possibly. Who knows?
RW, Possibly. Would be interesting.
Reading this forum makes me understand why wizards doesn't want to reprint Counterspell. Many people simply don't know how to interact with counterspells and I suspect that they lose to themselves more than anything else.
Reading this forum makes me understand why wizards doesn't want to reprint Counterspell. Many people simply don't know how to interact with counterspells and I suspect that they lose to themselves more than anything else.
As with any game the majority of players of it are not good.
It always bugs me when people don't realize how much more powerful counter spells are to removal.
With more and more creatures being created with ETB effects, counter spells become infinitely more powerful.
Playing Black or Red? Running removal? Cool story, bro. Your Thragtusk is still going to net you 5 life and a 3/3 Beast. Your Titans are still going to net you two lands, or 2 2/2 Zombies, or 3 damage, etc.
Running counterspells? Your opponent gets nothing. Also, your opponent gets to be (ideally) tapped out. Counter spells are all upside in those cases.
Furthermore, there are a number of responses to removal. Lighting Bolt it? Giant Growth or protection or flicker, etc...
Prior to the current iteration of Standard, we had a grand total of 2 responses: Autumn's Veil and Thrun. Counter spells were ridiculously imbalanced in power. Everything we're seeing now is WotC trying to fix how insane counter spells were. That fact that MORE people aren't finally saying: "Awesome WotC, thanks for giving us MORE responses to counter spells," to me, shows just how much people don't understand the level of power Blue had.
It always bugs me when people don't realize how much more powerful counter spells are to removal.
With more and more creatures being created with ETB effects, counter spells become infinitely more powerful.
Playing Black or Red? Running removal? Cool story, bro. Your Thragtusk is still going to net you 5 life and a 3/3 Beast. Your Titans are still going to net you two lands, or 2 2/2 Zombies, or 3 damage, etc.
The tradeoff is that you need to have your countermagic in hand with the resources to pay for it at the time that your opponent casts the spell that you want to counter. This puts pressure on you, as you cannot tap out to cast things on your own turn while leaving counter mana up.
Let's look at a situation where you have either a Mana Leak or a Doom Blade. You tap out on your turn to cast a Jace Beleren. Your opponent untaps and drops a Knight of the Reliquary. Since you tapped out, you can't Leak it, but you can untap and Doom Blade it.
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It always bugs me when people don't realize how much more powerful counter spells are to removal.
With more and more creatures being created with ETB effects, counter spells become infinitely more powerful.
Playing Black or Red? Running removal? Cool story, bro. Your Thragtusk is still going to net you 5 life and a 3/3 Beast. Your Titans are still going to net you two lands, or 2 2/2 Zombies, or 3 damage, etc.
Running counterspells? Your opponent gets nothing. Also, your opponent gets to be (ideally) tapped out. Counter spells are all upside in those cases.
Furthermore, there are a number of responses to removal. Lighting Bolt it? Giant Growth or protection or flicker, etc...
Prior to the current iteration of Standard, we had a grand total of 2 responses: Autumn's Veil and Thrun. Counter spells were ridiculously imbalanced in power. Everything we're seeing now is WotC trying to fix how insane counter spells were. That fact that MORE people aren't finally saying: "Awesome WotC, thanks for giving us MORE responses to counter spells," to me, shows just how much people don't understand the level of power Blue had.
I haven't play standard in years, but it seems to me the problem is more with efficient creatures that are difficult to interact with helps to end the game quicker. Mana Leak has been around forever and has only been a problem with Delver and Snapcaster and Geist. These cards end the game before people get to the point where they can pay the mana leak tax.
Also... Welcome to competitive magic? Creatures have only ever been played competitively if they were efficient. Whether this means ETB effects, LTB effects, or they have an effect that's worth the inherent weakness of being a creature. Jund played Bloodbraid Elf, Broodmate Dragon, Faeries played Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique, Tooth and Nail played Eternal Witness and Sakura Tribe-Elder. I could go on, but you get the point. Creatures have an inherent weakness because they are creatures, for them to be good enough to be played they either need to be difficult to remove, be absurdly efficient, or ensure that the player will still get value out of it.
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If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
This makes me sad. I like it when they print cards that work against counterspells because just countering my stuff is no fun. It ruins any chance to really interact with my opponent and have a fun game even with blue players. I hope they finish the cycle in Sinker.
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Probably there will be a cycle of cards that can be countered then, or a counterspell that can be cycled.
A counterspell that can be cycled? I am totally on board with that. It only seems fair that if WoTC is so intent on hosing counters that they could at *least* lower the opportunity cost of running them maindeck. Excellent idea.
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Reading this forum makes me understand why wizards doesn't want to reprint Counterspell. Many people simply don't know how to interact with counterspells and I suspect that they lose to themselves more than anything else.
I have absolutely no idea how counterspells are a problem and discard is not.
Counterspells are actually easier to play around, since you control when they can counter (you play the spell).
Discard can happen before you even play that 1st land.
Discard hasn't ever been too powerful in Standard, though. Duress isn't making big waves in this format, Despise didn't even when there was a lot of creatures. Inquisition of Kozilek was the last good one we had, and in the Standard it was in it was only semi-effective. They're restrictive enough that it's usually not much a worry.
Rakdos Returns is a rather exceptional new example, but that takes a lot of setup to hurt severely.
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Master Biomancer's flavor text should read 'My DNA - I put that ---- in everything'.
people don't understand the level of power Blue had.
I still say islands should be banned. They're the most broken card and that's why there was such a shortage of islands back in alpha... eh, I just look at it this way... I don't play blue, it's not my style. I have always been mono green or g/r since the days of alpha and red elemental blast was the best counter to blue. Stops time walks, ancestral recall, and later on force of will, daze, show and tell, intuition, fairies, etc.... red elemental blast is king. Sad wizards won't reprint such a leveler again to use against blue players. I miss Choke, Tsunami, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast...
I think g/r will have some really sweet half and half color that looks like one of my favorite toys and I'll be going back to my mostly mono green ramp again.
Discard hasn't ever been too powerful in Standard, though. Duress isn't making big waves in this format, Despise didn't even when there was a lot of creatures. Inquisition of Kozilek was the last good one we had, and in the Standard it was in it was only semi-effective. They're restrictive enough that it's usually not much a worry.
Rakdos Returns is a rather exceptional new example, but that takes a lot of setup to hurt severely.
mind twist was banned and hymn to tourach was restricted.
A counterspell that can be cycled? I am totally on board with that. It only seems fair that if WoTC is so intent on hosing counters that they could at *least* lower the opportunity cost of running them maindeck. Excellent idea.
There's already a few cycling counterspells. It raises the cost too much to really be worth using. Look at the other ones that do.
I wonder if the "awkward condition resolution in order to obtain advantage over my opponent using this overpriced mono-color enchantment" cycle will continue (Guild Feud; Search the City; Grave Denial).
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I understand, but we STILL have people complaining about counterspells when there is flashback, a can't be countered cycle, a land that stops countering certain creatures AND you could tally scavenge in there.
I'm glad there's more uncounterable stuff because of Eternal formats, where there are plenty of amazing counterspells. I don't play Standard so I'm happy when there's more uncounterable stuff for EDH or Legacy.
Furthermore, removal is also quite bad in Standard right now.
If Wizards can print Hexproof, Shroud, Indestructible, and so on then they can also print uncounterable. Why do people cry so much about uncounterable? Counterspells kill ETB effects, removal doesn't. Counterspells get around Undying or Hexproof, most removal doesn't. Counterspells are the only things that can deal with sorceries and instants as they're cast (kinda huge). And leaving mana open isn't that big of a deal when it's something like Mana Leak (Cancel is obviously different).
The tradeoff is that you need to have your countermagic in hand with the resources to pay for it at the time that your opponent casts the spell that you want to counter. This puts pressure on you, as you cannot tap out to cast things on your own turn while leaving counter mana up.
Let's look at a situation where you have either a Mana Leak or a Doom Blade. You tap out on your turn to cast a Jace Beleren. Your opponent untaps and drops a Knight of the Reliquary. Since you tapped out, you can't Leak it, but you can untap and Doom Blade it.
Not much of a trade off when you have other instant speed EOT options, like Think Twice. You can operate at the end of your opponent's turn.
Historically, there have been MANY times when decks running counterspells can also operate mostly at the end of an opponent's turn. Think Faeries, where you can cast your whole creature suite whenever you please.
Like other people have said we have things like indestructibility and hexproof that protect from removal so it only makes sense to print cards that would protect from counters as well. Add that to the effect that counters are generally considered "catch all" answers. I'd say more uncounterable cards are good for the game. Honestly I'd love to see more Split Second cards.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
Why do people cry so much about uncounterable? Counterspells kill ETB effects, removal doesn't. Counterspells get around Undying or Hexproof, most removal doesn't. Counterspells are the only things that can deal with sorceries and instants as they're cast (kinda huge). And leaving mana open isn't that big of a deal when it's something like Mana Leak (Cancel is obviously different).
'Cause it makes blue too strong, or splashing blue obligatory.
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I understand, but we STILL have people complaining about counterspells when there is flashback, a can't be countered cycle, a land that stops countering certain creatures AND you could tally scavenge in there.
Also Dissipate and syncopate are the two useable counterspells in standard and they are not bad, but not near the power of mana leak or counterspell(which I would be a BAD idea to reprint counterspell or mana leak with snappy around)
What I was saying was people are complaining way TOO much. I have been on the receiving end of being countered eight times in one game but I still had fun, matter of fact it was hilarious. Oh by the way i still won.
In the end, yes there was something needed to counteract(no pun intended) counterspells besides countering them, but we do HAVE that in a lot of cards. Also there are quite of feel flash creatures in standard that help you against that stuff. I could go on and on but there is no reason to complain anymore about counterspells.
If your opponent drops their bomb, and you draw Counterspell the next turn, you die.
If they cast it and you were tapped out with a hand of counterspells, you die.
If those were doom blades instead, you would be fine.
But if the card is Geist of Saint Traft, you're screwed with tbe doomblades, and okay with the counterspells... except the counterspells still have their restrictions.
It's really not unbalanced, its just more annoying than other things.
very well put. Most of the time they have something in their hand like a threat they want to play but can't because they want to leave mana open for countering where as removal you don't have to worry about that.
BW getting something uncounterable wouldn't make a lot of sense.
GR, makes sense.
UG, makes sense.
UB, Possibly. Who knows?
RW, Possibly. Would be interesting.
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As with any game the majority of players of it are not good.
With more and more creatures being created with ETB effects, counter spells become infinitely more powerful.
Playing Black or Red? Running removal? Cool story, bro. Your Thragtusk is still going to net you 5 life and a 3/3 Beast. Your Titans are still going to net you two lands, or 2 2/2 Zombies, or 3 damage, etc.
Running counterspells? Your opponent gets nothing. Also, your opponent gets to be (ideally) tapped out. Counter spells are all upside in those cases.
Furthermore, there are a number of responses to removal. Lighting Bolt it? Giant Growth or protection or flicker, etc...
Prior to the current iteration of Standard, we had a grand total of 2 responses: Autumn's Veil and Thrun. Counter spells were ridiculously imbalanced in power. Everything we're seeing now is WotC trying to fix how insane counter spells were. That fact that MORE people aren't finally saying: "Awesome WotC, thanks for giving us MORE responses to counter spells," to me, shows just how much people don't understand the level of power Blue had.
The tradeoff is that you need to have your countermagic in hand with the resources to pay for it at the time that your opponent casts the spell that you want to counter. This puts pressure on you, as you cannot tap out to cast things on your own turn while leaving counter mana up.
Let's look at a situation where you have either a Mana Leak or a Doom Blade. You tap out on your turn to cast a Jace Beleren. Your opponent untaps and drops a Knight of the Reliquary. Since you tapped out, you can't Leak it, but you can untap and Doom Blade it.
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I haven't play standard in years, but it seems to me the problem is more with efficient creatures that are difficult to interact with helps to end the game quicker. Mana Leak has been around forever and has only been a problem with Delver and Snapcaster and Geist. These cards end the game before people get to the point where they can pay the mana leak tax.
Also... Welcome to competitive magic? Creatures have only ever been played competitively if they were efficient. Whether this means ETB effects, LTB effects, or they have an effect that's worth the inherent weakness of being a creature. Jund played Bloodbraid Elf, Broodmate Dragon, Faeries played Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique, Tooth and Nail played Eternal Witness and Sakura Tribe-Elder. I could go on, but you get the point. Creatures have an inherent weakness because they are creatures, for them to be good enough to be played they either need to be difficult to remove, be absurdly efficient, or ensure that the player will still get value out of it.
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I could see it somewhere in the block. Maybe not in GTC (since they said the cycle ends), but in sinker.
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A counterspell that can be cycled? I am totally on board with that. It only seems fair that if WoTC is so intent on hosing counters that they could at *least* lower the opportunity cost of running them maindeck. Excellent idea.
N/A
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I have absolutely no idea how counterspells are a problem and discard is not.
Counterspells are actually easier to play around, since you control when they can counter (you play the spell).
Discard can happen before you even play that 1st land.
-Legacy-
WUB Esper Stoneblade
WUR Miracles
BUG Bug Loam
Rakdos Returns is a rather exceptional new example, but that takes a lot of setup to hurt severely.
I still say islands should be banned. They're the most broken card and that's why there was such a shortage of islands back in alpha... eh, I just look at it this way... I don't play blue, it's not my style. I have always been mono green or g/r since the days of alpha and red elemental blast was the best counter to blue. Stops time walks, ancestral recall, and later on force of will, daze, show and tell, intuition, fairies, etc.... red elemental blast is king. Sad wizards won't reprint such a leveler again to use against blue players. I miss Choke, Tsunami, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast...
I think g/r will have some really sweet half and half color that looks like one of my favorite toys and I'll be going back to my mostly mono green ramp again.
mind twist was banned and hymn to tourach was restricted.
There's already a few cycling counterspells. It raises the cost too much to really be worth using. Look at the other ones that do.
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it's an all-or-nothing deal.
Learn how to deal with Blue like the rest of us have.
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I'm glad there's more uncounterable stuff because of Eternal formats, where there are plenty of amazing counterspells. I don't play Standard so I'm happy when there's more uncounterable stuff for EDH or Legacy.
Furthermore, removal is also quite bad in Standard right now.
If Wizards can print Hexproof, Shroud, Indestructible, and so on then they can also print uncounterable. Why do people cry so much about uncounterable? Counterspells kill ETB effects, removal doesn't. Counterspells get around Undying or Hexproof, most removal doesn't. Counterspells are the only things that can deal with sorceries and instants as they're cast (kinda huge). And leaving mana open isn't that big of a deal when it's something like Mana Leak (Cancel is obviously different).
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Not much of a trade off when you have other instant speed EOT options, like Think Twice. You can operate at the end of your opponent's turn.
Historically, there have been MANY times when decks running counterspells can also operate mostly at the end of an opponent's turn. Think Faeries, where you can cast your whole creature suite whenever you please.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
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WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
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BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
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GUB Mimeoplasm
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GWU Treva, the Renewer
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Trades
'Cause it makes blue too strong, or splashing blue obligatory.