Traditionally a lord is a 2/2 that grants an unconditional +1/+1 and an ability to a certain creature type. Lord of Atlantis, Goblin King, and Zombie Master are the originals, with only Zombie Master deviating from the formula (being a 2/3).
Mayor doesn't count as a lord because he is a 1/1 to start with and his other abilities partially depend on what your opponents do. Auriok Steelshaper doesn't count because he takes another card before his bonus kicks in and is a 1/1 as well. Hamlet Captain only grants the bonus when he attacks or blocks and gives no other ability. Wizened Cenn and the Slivers are closest to true lords, but still don't grant extra abilities. None of them are as straight up efficient as Lord of Atlantis.
Coralhelm Commander requires 4 mana to give out a lord effect, Eladamri, Lord of Leaves doesn't even pump, yet the person I replied to had them listed, you should probably be replying to them, not me. I've seen some standards for lords in my day, but the P/T has never been one of them and has nothing to do with being a lord or not, in the least.
Fine. Even when you consider all those cards you mentioned lords, which of them is the best? The answer is still the blue one. It saw Standard play when it was reprinted in Time Spiral and is in a Legacy deck which was top tier until fairly recently. So until Kithkin become a Legacy deck to beat, I still don't think your argument is a good one. Merfolk is a strong tribe and has been strong in multiple formats.
Avoiding the point, issue was blue being the only color to have 2 mana lords. Except for green.
Coralhelm Commander requires 4 mana to give out a lord effect, Eladamri, Lord of Leaves doesn't even pump, yet the person I replied to had them listed, you should probably be replying to them, not me. I've seen some standards for lords in my day, but the P/T has never been one of them and has nothing to do with being a lord or not, in the least.
I've already conceded this point.
Avoiding the point, issue was blue being the only color to have 2 mana lords. Except for green.
I believe Commons' point was that blue has received the best lords over the years, when blue is supposed to have weaker creatures than other colors. But I may be reading it wrong (and I am sorry if I am misinterpreting his words). Here's what he said a few pages back:
It is odd that a color that is generally not know for good creatures has the most 2cmc lords which are generally much better then the 3cmc counterparts.
Do you know what needs more help in eternal formats? Non-blue and non-blue tribes.
Didn't WotC say that they don't wanna make more Merfolk because they feel that creatures that live in water don't really appeal to players? I don't get it.
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People need to understand that Merfolk are very dependent on their lords. They are essentially Anthems that can attack. Rarely does one stand-out from the crowd except for a couple like Wake Thrasher, Empress Galina, Rootwater Thief that are actually good by themselves.
It isn't that difficult to grasp what a Lord is. I wouldn't consider Hamlet Captain to be one he is too conditional. Lords are essentially walking Anthems and sometimes you get an ability granted to other creatures of his/her tribe. As for people saying "BUT WE GOT UNCOMMON LORDS FROM INNISTRAD WTF?! WHY WE GET RARE LORDS AGAIN!?"
They are two colors, making it harder for the mana-base and breaks mono-colored strategies for those tribes. Stormkirk Noble would have been nice if it was mono-black so it can tag team with Vampire Nocturnus and not running into dead red cards that negate his buff. Most competitive spirits would rather have a White/Black mana-base. Need to splash blue for a Lord effect is a hassle when it could be mono-white. My guess for that is the reason for two colors is to make it not so linear for these tribes.
Vampire Nocturnus is a damn Lord. He leads his vampire people to the promise land by granting them Unholy Strength and Flying. Yes it is conditional but it is still a potent buff effect when it is up and ontop of that... HE gets the buff too. There is hardly any Lord that can buff himself minus a Lord of Illusion'd Phantasmal Image.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
Anyone complains about this card has no clue about card design, Lord of Atlantis is definitely in the top 4 of best lords ever created. This guy beats him out as a card it is instantly a powerhouse in any format where a decent number of merfolk exist.
BTW: For those complaining that right now we don't have a large amount of merfolk in standard, perhaps merfolk will be showing up in force in Return to Ravnica.
There's the fact that U has the worst creatures, so adding a cheap lord for them gets the least mileage than adding it to any other color. You say that Wizened Cenn is not a lord, but it was used in mono-W Kithkin lists like mad, and if it had had additional abilities it would have been over the top.
If by fact you mean delusion... then yes i would agree. The truth is in recent years with Delver, SCM and Geist and pretty much going back with Tog, Fae, Merfolk, Morphling, Tradewind rider, Dep and Finkle. Blue has more then it's fair share of good creatures for standard. Probable more then any other color, you could make a case for G or W but definitely not B or R. If you look at eternal formats blue's creature are more played then any other color. The only non-rotating format where blue's creature don't see the most play is modern, even in modern blue is probable the 3rd best creature color behind green and white.
Well depending on how far you want to stretch the "Lord" you could include Bramblewood Paragon too. With said to be fair Slivers is a 5 color tribe. Even with those added cards blue still has more 2cmc lords red/black and better 2cmc lords then green/white. So i mean... you know not exactly the "weak" creature color.
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I really wish they had given more support to illusions in the last few sets. I have a casual illusions deck that needs some love. If only invisible stalker had been an illusion!
But an illusion is something you see, invisible stalker is something you don't see. The flavor is totally backwards
I don't wish for all that many new Merfolk but I do wish that Wizard lords/ladies were printed. I think that they're almost as influential or characteristic of blue as Merfolk are.
As for other colours, I yearn for white to get a Field Marshal that confers plainswalk rather than first strike; some 1CC lord for its rather divided soldier/knight class type or something for its stereotypically white creature type (Human?); new lords for new creature types for black, red, and green.
Didn't WotC say that they don't wanna make more Merfolk because they feel that creatures that live in water don't really appeal to players? I don't get it.
That was ages ago... Odyssey-era news. Lorwyn should be any indication as to how Wotc sees Merfolk now.
Anyone complains about this card has no clue about card design, Lord of Atlantis is definitely in the top 4 of best lords ever created. This guy beats him out as a card it is instantly a powerhouse in any format where a decent number of merfolk exist.
BTW: For those complaining that right now we don't have a large amount of merfolk in standard, perhaps merfolk will be showing up in force in Return to Ravnica.
Actually, most people are correctly observing that modern blue should not be getting creatures this efficient in their slice of the colour pie. Blue is LAST for creatures. Lord of Atlantis is a little bit old to be representative of the modern pie don't you think?
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If by fact you mean delusion... then yes i would agree. The truth is in recent years with Delver, SCM and Geist and pretty much going back with Tog, Fae, Merfolk, Morphling, Tradewind rider, Dep and Finkle.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is "Dep?" Maybe b/c it's 2 AM here, but I looked through all the blue creatures that start with "D" and coulnd't figure it out, unless it's short for "Adept" in which case I'd ask you be specific, ther's a lot of blue adepts.
PS: thanks for changing it to "finkle" after I scoured the "S" names =_=
Actually, most people are correctly observing that modern blue should not be getting creatures this efficient in their slice of the colour pie. Blue is LAST for creatures. Lord of Atlantis is a little bit old to be representative of the modern pie don't you think?
Just because blue is last doesn't mean they all need to suck see snap and delver. Seriously though I don't see this as breaking that in anyway not like its totally busted in anyway its just a lord.
Just because blue is last doesn't mean they all need to suck see snap and delver. Seriously though I don't see this as breaking that in anyway not like its totally busted in anyway its just a lord.
So you pick the two best examples of blue getting creatures it shouldn't as evidence that this creature is correct?
Wow.
Newsflash: blue is last in creatures. Lord of Atlantis is only acceptable if Green and White get something INSANE.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is "Dep?" Maybe b/c it's 2 AM here, but I looked through all the blue creatures that start with "D" and coulnd't figure it out, unless it's short for "Adept" in which case I'd ask you be specific, ther's a lot of blue adepts.
PS: thanks for changing it to "finkle" after I scoured the "S" names =_=
Serendib Efreet. Some people used to pronounce it SerenDEP efreet... which eventually just got shorted to Dep. Because frankly saying Serendib efreet over and over is very annoying.
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Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
That is the only acceptable counter-argument. The fact is, the is no way you can a card at that level without giving every other colour (blue is last) something better. Im nearly 100% certain that will not happen; blue is the chosen colour and all the blue mages can tell themselves how good they are at magic when they win with cards that are far better than they should be
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That is the only acceptable counter-argument. The fact is, the is no way you can a card at that level without giving every other colour (blue is last) something better. Im nearly 100% certain that will not happen; blue is the chosen colour and all the blue mages can tell themselves how good they are at magic when they win with cards that are far better than they should be
Green DID get better creatures. So good, in fact, that they were banned. Wild Nacatl. Rancor is the consensus best card in M13 right now. Why are you complaining? The new lord isn't going to suddenly make merfolk playable in standard OR modern, though it's definitely going to make an impact in legacy, at which point color pie makes little difference.
The color pie arguments are no longer relevant when you look at how R&D designs cards. They certainly restrict abilities based on color, but nowadays the design focus is more on showcasing a mechanic rather than respecting color attributes.
Avoiding the point, issue was blue being the only color to have 2 mana lords. Except for green.
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I've already conceded this point.
I believe Commons' point was that blue has received the best lords over the years, when blue is supposed to have weaker creatures than other colors. But I may be reading it wrong (and I am sorry if I am misinterpreting his words). Here's what he said a few pages back:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8602698&postcount=224
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My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
weird.
It isn't that difficult to grasp what a Lord is. I wouldn't consider Hamlet Captain to be one he is too conditional. Lords are essentially walking Anthems and sometimes you get an ability granted to other creatures of his/her tribe. As for people saying "BUT WE GOT UNCOMMON LORDS FROM INNISTRAD WTF?! WHY WE GET RARE LORDS AGAIN!?"
They are two colors, making it harder for the mana-base and breaks mono-colored strategies for those tribes. Stormkirk Noble would have been nice if it was mono-black so it can tag team with Vampire Nocturnus and not running into dead red cards that negate his buff. Most competitive spirits would rather have a White/Black mana-base. Need to splash blue for a Lord effect is a hassle when it could be mono-white. My guess for that is the reason for two colors is to make it not so linear for these tribes.
Vampire Nocturnus is a damn Lord. He leads his vampire people to the promise land by granting them Unholy Strength and Flying. Yes it is conditional but it is still a potent buff effect when it is up and ontop of that... HE gets the buff too. There is hardly any Lord that can buff himself minus a Lord of Illusion'd Phantasmal Image.
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BTW: For those complaining that right now we don't have a large amount of merfolk in standard, perhaps merfolk will be showing up in force in Return to Ravnica.
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If by fact you mean delusion... then yes i would agree. The truth is in recent years with Delver, SCM and Geist and pretty much going back with Tog, Fae, Merfolk, Morphling, Tradewind rider, Dep and Finkle. Blue has more then it's fair share of good creatures for standard. Probable more then any other color, you could make a case for G or W but definitely not B or R. If you look at eternal formats blue's creature are more played then any other color. The only non-rotating format where blue's creature don't see the most play is modern, even in modern blue is probable the 3rd best creature color behind green and white.
Well depending on how far you want to stretch the "Lord" you could include Bramblewood Paragon too. With said to be fair Slivers is a 5 color tribe. Even with those added cards blue still has more 2cmc lords red/black and better 2cmc lords then green/white. So i mean... you know not exactly the "weak" creature color.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
But an illusion is something you see, invisible stalker is something you don't see. The flavor is totally backwards
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I don't wish for all that many new Merfolk but I do wish that Wizard lords/ladies were printed. I think that they're almost as influential or characteristic of blue as Merfolk are.
As for other colours, I yearn for white to get a Field Marshal that confers plainswalk rather than first strike; some 1CC lord for its rather divided soldier/knight class type or something for its stereotypically white creature type (Human?); new lords for new creature types for black, red, and green.
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That was ages ago... Odyssey-era news. Lorwyn should be any indication as to how Wotc sees Merfolk now.
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Actually, most people are correctly observing that modern blue should not be getting creatures this efficient in their slice of the colour pie. Blue is LAST for creatures. Lord of Atlantis is a little bit old to be representative of the modern pie don't you think?
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is "Dep?" Maybe b/c it's 2 AM here, but I looked through all the blue creatures that start with "D" and coulnd't figure it out, unless it's short for "Adept" in which case I'd ask you be specific, ther's a lot of blue adepts.
PS: thanks for changing it to "finkle" after I scoured the "S" names =_=
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Just because blue is last doesn't mean they all need to suck see snap and delver. Seriously though I don't see this as breaking that in anyway not like its totally busted in anyway its just a lord.
So you pick the two best examples of blue getting creatures it shouldn't as evidence that this creature is correct?
Wow.
Newsflash: blue is last in creatures. Lord of Atlantis is only acceptable if Green and White get something INSANE.
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I don't think it matters... How many playable Merfolk are available in standard after M13?
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Serendib Efreet. Some people used to pronounce it SerenDEP efreet... which eventually just got shorted to Dep. Because frankly saying Serendib efreet over and over is very annoying.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
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Green DID get better creatures. So good, in fact, that they were banned. Wild Nacatl. Rancor is the consensus best card in M13 right now. Why are you complaining? The new lord isn't going to suddenly make merfolk playable in standard OR modern, though it's definitely going to make an impact in legacy, at which point color pie makes little difference.
The color pie arguments are no longer relevant when you look at how R&D designs cards. They certainly restrict abilities based on color, but nowadays the design focus is more on showcasing a mechanic rather than respecting color attributes.
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
the roles of red and black are to be bad, so people can find the best deck(u/w) faster. cant have more than 3 viable colors now, thats just silly.