I edited my post right after posting to reflect that I suddenly wasn't sure. I, for some reason, remembered reading that, but I don't remember exactly what i read, so I was taking that claim back. I think my understanding comes from something posted before we actually saw the full card's picture online. I admit to being incorrect.
Sorceries won't be able to trigger miracle at all, it says "if it's the first card you drew this turn" which is the card you draw in your draw step, unless something makes you draw in your upkeep. So for example, blue suns zenith for 2 in your upkeep, you would have to make very clear the order you drew the cards, I imagine the ruling will be that you have to reveal it before drawing anymore cards, since Theres no other way to prevent cheating.
i agree that they'll have to be revealed, but sorceries should still work, as Miracle isn't an alternative /cost/. Its an alternative way to /cast/ it, much like madness, even if the cost isnt equivalent to its CMC
I edited my post right after posting to reflect that I suddenly wasn't sure. I, for some reason, remembered reading that, but I don't remember exactly what i read, so I was taking that claim back. I think my understanding comes from something posted before we actually saw the full card's picture online. I admit to being incorrect.
It's cool man(or girl), we all have our brain farts/delusions. I'm simply mulling over the idea of what soulbound creatures can do with each other as well as with other global buffs. The paladin by itself makes white weenie humans insane. As if Champion of the Parish needed doublestrike after it's become a 3/3 and larger.
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Soooo I'm thinking Noxious Revival+miracles seems pretty cool.......Snapcaster flsahing back revival, keep casting Thunderous Wrath for R?
I am actually kind of scared of UR with that miracle card now. Seems like if they give enough support to miracle with the manipulation with ponder and revival will just abuse it. Who knows though, but should be fun and entertaining.
Oh, it gets better, not only does ponder play real well in this style of deck, but delver of course gets to be autoincluded. And we've only seen one miracle card spoiled. This could get downright silly.
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EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Soooo I'm thinking Noxious Revival+miracles seems pretty cool.......Snapcaster flsahing back revival, keep casting Thunderous Wrath for R?
This right here, if you're able to miracle thunderous wrath naturally the first time, results in 15 damage by itself. first time is 5, second time after noxious revival, is another 5 (10 total), and the third time after a snapcaster flashing back noxious revival is 5 yet again (15 total).
This is over the course of three turns, and along with other burn and tempo spells? Seems like a good game plan to me.
Oh, it gets better, not only does ponder play real well in this style of deck, but delver of course gets to be autoincluded. And we've only seen one miracle card spoiled. This could get downright silly.
Yeah, U/R tempo delver, put you on a clock and manipulate my library so that I can just burn you for 5 out of no where. But, in my opinion, it would have to compete with U/W delver with the new paladin. I forsee the paladin replacing geist of saint traft, because doublestrike with swords and pike is ridiculous. Especially on an invisble stalker with Sword of War and Peace, that is just ridiculous. (3/3 double strike unblockable hexproof, and with just 1 card in your opponents hand is 8 damage.) Idk, it just seems like a number of these spoilers are pushing a really really fast format. And The Pike doesn't rotate with Scars block, so delver.dec with be viable for a while.
I'm already building it... Ur burn draw w/ noxious revival!!! I think maybe some visions of beyond seen appropriate here, end of your turn revival, visions, wrath!!
The effect could prove so discombobulating to combo players, in particularly, they may fizzle and run away screaming. "From that day the Curse of the Plateau was upon me, and I found every hand I ever pull from a combo deck is a mulligan."
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The effect could prove so discombobulating to combo players, in particularly, they may fizzle and run away screaming. "From that day the Curse of the Plateau was upon me, and I found every hand I ever pull from a combo deck is a mulligan."
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Remember for the people who were speculating on soulbond- it really looks like we have no clue on how it actually functions, since the reminder text is ambiguous, until we see the FAQ tomorrow. What I can gather about Soulbond is this:
*It lets you Soulbind to creatures opponents control if you want, I'm pretty sure. Edit: well, it does, but then they immediately fall off? seems odd.
*You probably can Soulbind one creature with Soulbound to another, so they both get the bonus from both each other. Pretty sure on that one too.
*You probably can't Soulbind more than one creature with a Soulbond creature. The way the reminder text reads, it ambiguously would let you bind each creature that enters the battlefield, so long as the other creature is unpaired- it doesn't say anything about itself being unpaired. Otherwise you could play this Paladin, and then bind him to every creature you play after him, and they'd all get Double Strike- but on ETB, you could only make 1 pairing. But I'm pretty sure that even though its ambiguous on the matter, you can't do that.
*Pairing and Soulbond will have to be defined by the rules text- the reminder text has no meaning, and it is a keyword, not ability word. So its likely that the definition will say that one object may only be paired to one other object. That means 'pairing' would be dissimilar to 'attaching'; attaching is a one-way connection where N objects can be connected to 1 object (which in turn can be attached to something else), while pairing would be a two-way connection between 1 and 1 objects only.
These are just my educated guesses. But I do see the potential for a great deal of Soulbond design space they could have tapped- negative effects you can give to your opponents creatures, spells or abilities that do something extra to 'paired' creatures (at risk of being parasitic), even an artifact or enchantment that gives creatures you play soulbond (I don't think that would be a good idea though, since it would be unnecessarily complicated and contrived)
What will actually stop people from cheating with Miracle ability?
Same thing that stopped cheating with Kinship; you have to reveal the card when you draw it, if you're going to cast it, so it should never enter your hand at all. If someone pulls a card from their hand for the miracle cost, it means they're casting it 'late' after they missed the chance at the trigger. Still, it will lead to situations where you have to slowly examine each card you draw to see if you want to cast its miracle or not, even to the point you'd have to "fake it" by examining *every* drawn card (zzzzzzz)
But hey, we survived Morph, which found its way onto a surprising amount of lands even before zoetic cavern was printed. And Morph had a much worse way of detecting cheating- you couldn't call it out on the spot, but instead had to wait until the end of a game or till it was killed, and you had to somehow mark them and know which morphed creature was which, it was a potential nightmare.
Worrying about cheating on miracles when you can call it out pretty easy doesn't seem so bad, when even 'pros' are casting brainstorms as ancestral recalls
Remember for the people who were speculating on soulbond- it really looks like we have no clue on how it actually functions, since the reminder text is ambiguous, until we see the FAQ tomorrow. What I can gather about Soulbond is this:
*It lets you Soulbind to creatures opponents control if you want, I'm pretty sure.
I initially thought that as well, but the text says that you have to control both of them for them to remain paired. I don't know whether or not this means you can bind them and they immediately "unpair" or you just can't bind with them to begin with.
its a sorcery. if faithless looting would be an instant. this would be great sure. you draw cards in your opponents turn, and if you draw a miracle card you can directly play it.
in your turn it does not work, since you already drew a card when you play faithless.
and i cant play faithless looting just to get useless miracle cards in my hand into the graveyard... thats kinda too much waste of cards.
That's not a "waste" of cards - that's how every looting effect in the history of magic works. Cards that draw cards and/or loot exist to get you some card advantage by digging into your library for relevant spells. Playing miracle spells that are extremely cheap off the top is well worth it, and having to play a card that loots them away at inopportune times (a card that is already pretty awesome on its own, by the way) is not a significant cost.
I'm aware that you play it in your main phase also, btw
I'm not saying that this is definitively "good enough" in standard, or even block, but if we're constructing a burn deck from the ground up, it's definitely coming with four fathless looting and probably 2-4 of every miracle burn spell they print.
I initially thought that as well, but the text says that you have to control both of them for them to remain paired. I don't know whether or not this means you can bind them and they immediately "unpair" or you just can't bind with them to begin with.
The way its worded makes it seem like you can pair an opponent's creature when it enters but then it will unpair immediately. They could technically make a soulbound mind control, it might be too powerful at playable cmc though.
Sorceries won't be able to trigger miracle at all, it says "if it's the first card you drew this turn" which is the card you draw in your draw step, unless something makes you draw in your upkeep. So for example, blue suns zenith for 2 in your upkeep, you would have to make very clear the order you drew the cards, I imagine the ruling will be that you have to reveal it before drawing anymore cards, since Theres no other way to prevent cheating.
You should already by doing this. "Draw two cards" functionally means "draw a card, then draw a card." So, this should already be the way you're playing magic, really.
I initially thought that as well, but the text says that you have to control both of them for them to remain paired. I don't know whether or not this means you can bind them and they immediately "unpair" or you just can't bind with them to begin with.
Ah you're right on that. Seems a bit odd, why they wouldn't open this up to offensive pairing- it could just say "as long as they're both on the battlefield". Then again, its just reminder text, but they might have screwed it up. Most likely you're, that its not offensive pairing at all. Be a bit of a shame, Haunt was a neat mechanic.
The odd bit about being able to pair an opponents creature, then immediately having it 'fall off' seems jarring to me. I hope the FAQ tomorrow clears it up.
Regarding multiple card draws and miracles: If you are playing a deck with miracles you will want to clearly delineate different draws. With stuff like Blue Sun you'll draw the first card. If it's a miracle you want to cast as such, you'll reveal it and put it on the stack, then finish resolving your Blue Sun. Once the Blue Sun finishes resolving you'll cast the miracle.
*You probably can Soulbind one creature with Soulbound to another, so they both get the bonus from both each other. Pretty sure on that one too.
*You probably can't Soulbind more than one creature with a Soulbond creature. The way the reminder text reads, it ambiguously would let you bind each creature that enters the battlefield, so long as the other creature is unpaired- it doesn't say anything about itself being unpaired. Otherwise you could play this Paladin, and then bind him to every creature you play after him, and they'd all get Double Strike- but on ETB, you could only make 1 pairing. But I'm pretty sure that even though its ambiguous on the matter, you can't do that.
*Pairing and Soulbond will have to be defined by the rules text- the reminder text has no meaning, and it is a keyword, not ability word. So its likely that the definition will say that one object may only be paired to one other object. That means 'pairing' would be dissimilar to 'attaching'; attaching is a one-way connection where N objects can be connected to 1 object (which in turn can be attached to something else), while pairing would be a two-way connection between 1 and 1 objects only.
Soulbound seems to fit fine with the creature hosting the ability able to have multiple pairings. The thing that would make it interesting and potentially confusing is having multiple soulbinding creatures and declaring the pairings.
Example:
you have a White Knight in play and you play one of the new paladin
With the Paladin ETB effect, you pair it to the White Knight.
Then you have another creature come in with its own, different soulbound. Instead of using it's soulbind, you use Paladins to extend to it because this new creature, Creature C, is unpaired.
Creature C and Paladin are now paired and Creature C has it's own bound ability and Paladin's, because Paladin was already paired, Creature C cannot pair to it, so it doesn't get Creature C's ability. This also works if Paladin was not previously paired, the only difference being you would have a choice as to which one created the pair and therefore only had its own ability.
After this you play a Geist-Honored Monk, You then get to choose for the monk and each token which you wouild like to pair them to between Creature C and the Paladin.
I'm figuring you can only pair two unpaired creatures. The reminder text says "You can pair this with another unpaired creature" which to me implies both have to be unpaired, due to the "another unpaired". Otherwise it could just say "You can pair this with another creature". Plus the fact that it says "pair" to begin with. If you have a pair of socks and add a third, you don't still just have 1 pair, right? Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but it seems really straightforward.
He's saying that having two creatures with soulbound paired to one another would confer two separate buffs to each of them.
I edited my post right after posting to reflect that I suddenly wasn't sure. I, for some reason, remembered reading that, but I don't remember exactly what i read, so I was taking that claim back. I think my understanding comes from something posted before we actually saw the full card's picture online. I admit to being incorrect.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
i agree that they'll have to be revealed, but sorceries should still work, as Miracle isn't an alternative /cost/. Its an alternative way to /cast/ it, much like madness, even if the cost isnt equivalent to its CMC
RU: Rusty_Brain
GB: Worm Paint
WUR: Zedruu EHD
It's cool man(or girl), we all have our brain farts/delusions. I'm simply mulling over the idea of what soulbound creatures can do with each other as well as with other global buffs. The paladin by itself makes white weenie humans insane. As if Champion of the Parish needed doublestrike after it's become a 3/3 and larger.
B/R Burn??
I am actually kind of scared of UR with that miracle card now. Seems like if they give enough support to miracle with the manipulation with ponder and revival will just abuse it. Who knows though, but should be fun and entertaining.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
This right here, if you're able to miracle thunderous wrath naturally the first time, results in 15 damage by itself. first time is 5, second time after noxious revival, is another 5 (10 total), and the third time after a snapcaster flashing back noxious revival is 5 yet again (15 total).
This is over the course of three turns, and along with other burn and tempo spells? Seems like a good game plan to me.
Edit:
Yeah, U/R tempo delver, put you on a clock and manipulate my library so that I can just burn you for 5 out of no where. But, in my opinion, it would have to compete with U/W delver with the new paladin. I forsee the paladin replacing geist of saint traft, because doublestrike with swords and pike is ridiculous. Especially on an invisble stalker with Sword of War and Peace, that is just ridiculous. (3/3 double strike unblockable hexproof, and with just 1 card in your opponents hand is 8 damage.) Idk, it just seems like a number of these spoilers are pushing a really really fast format. And The Pike doesn't rotate with Scars block, so delver.dec with be viable for a while.
BWG
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That's only because the only card with it we've seen grants a combat ability.
I'm sure there will be soulbound effects that have nothing to do with combat.
True, i was just saying what my first impression was lol.
It sounds interesting non the less.
BWG
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*It lets you Soulbind to creatures opponents control if you want, I'm pretty sure. Edit: well, it does, but then they immediately fall off? seems odd.
*You probably can Soulbind one creature with Soulbound to another, so they both get the bonus from both each other. Pretty sure on that one too.
*You probably can't Soulbind more than one creature with a Soulbond creature. The way the reminder text reads, it ambiguously would let you bind each creature that enters the battlefield, so long as the other creature is unpaired- it doesn't say anything about itself being unpaired. Otherwise you could play this Paladin, and then bind him to every creature you play after him, and they'd all get Double Strike- but on ETB, you could only make 1 pairing. But I'm pretty sure that even though its ambiguous on the matter, you can't do that.
*Pairing and Soulbond will have to be defined by the rules text- the reminder text has no meaning, and it is a keyword, not ability word. So its likely that the definition will say that one object may only be paired to one other object. That means 'pairing' would be dissimilar to 'attaching'; attaching is a one-way connection where N objects can be connected to 1 object (which in turn can be attached to something else), while pairing would be a two-way connection between 1 and 1 objects only.
These are just my educated guesses. But I do see the potential for a great deal of Soulbond design space they could have tapped- negative effects you can give to your opponents creatures, spells or abilities that do something extra to 'paired' creatures (at risk of being parasitic), even an artifact or enchantment that gives creatures you play soulbond (I don't think that would be a good idea though, since it would be unnecessarily complicated and contrived)
Same thing that stopped cheating with Kinship; you have to reveal the card when you draw it, if you're going to cast it, so it should never enter your hand at all. If someone pulls a card from their hand for the miracle cost, it means they're casting it 'late' after they missed the chance at the trigger. Still, it will lead to situations where you have to slowly examine each card you draw to see if you want to cast its miracle or not, even to the point you'd have to "fake it" by examining *every* drawn card (zzzzzzz)
But hey, we survived Morph, which found its way onto a surprising amount of lands even before zoetic cavern was printed. And Morph had a much worse way of detecting cheating- you couldn't call it out on the spot, but instead had to wait until the end of a game or till it was killed, and you had to somehow mark them and know which morphed creature was which, it was a potential nightmare.
Worrying about cheating on miracles when you can call it out pretty easy doesn't seem so bad, when even 'pros' are casting brainstorms as ancestral recalls
I initially thought that as well, but the text says that you have to control both of them for them to remain paired. I don't know whether or not this means you can bind them and they immediately "unpair" or you just can't bind with them to begin with.
That's not a "waste" of cards - that's how every looting effect in the history of magic works. Cards that draw cards and/or loot exist to get you some card advantage by digging into your library for relevant spells. Playing miracle spells that are extremely cheap off the top is well worth it, and having to play a card that loots them away at inopportune times (a card that is already pretty awesome on its own, by the way) is not a significant cost.
I'm aware that you play it in your main phase also, btw
I'm not saying that this is definitively "good enough" in standard, or even block, but if we're constructing a burn deck from the ground up, it's definitely coming with four fathless looting and probably 2-4 of every miracle burn spell they print.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
The way its worded makes it seem like you can pair an opponent's creature when it enters but then it will unpair immediately. They could technically make a soulbound mind control, it might be too powerful at playable cmc though.
You should already by doing this. "Draw two cards" functionally means "draw a card, then draw a card." So, this should already be the way you're playing magic, really.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Ah you're right on that. Seems a bit odd, why they wouldn't open this up to offensive pairing- it could just say "as long as they're both on the battlefield". Then again, its just reminder text, but they might have screwed it up. Most likely you're, that its not offensive pairing at all. Be a bit of a shame, Haunt was a neat mechanic.
The odd bit about being able to pair an opponents creature, then immediately having it 'fall off' seems jarring to me. I hope the FAQ tomorrow clears it up.
-leon Guatier Ten commandments of chivalry
Standard: W/R Aggro
Soulbound seems to fit fine with the creature hosting the ability able to have multiple pairings. The thing that would make it interesting and potentially confusing is having multiple soulbinding creatures and declaring the pairings.
Example:
you have a White Knight in play and you play one of the new paladin
With the Paladin ETB effect, you pair it to the White Knight.
Then you have another creature come in with its own, different soulbound. Instead of using it's soulbind, you use Paladins to extend to it because this new creature, Creature C, is unpaired.
Creature C and Paladin are now paired and Creature C has it's own bound ability and Paladin's, because Paladin was already paired, Creature C cannot pair to it, so it doesn't get Creature C's ability. This also works if Paladin was not previously paired, the only difference being you would have a choice as to which one created the pair and therefore only had its own ability.
After this you play a Geist-Honored Monk, You then get to choose for the monk and each token which you wouild like to pair them to between Creature C and the Paladin.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
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GWMidrangeGW
URBurning VengeanceUR
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URNin, the Pain ArtistUR
BROlivia VoldarenBR
WIsamaru, Hound of KondaW
RGWRith, the AwakenerRGW
WUBRGCromatWUBRG
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