Oh dear lord. My bad that I read that its not one sided. Its still insane. against aggro they have to have creatures to kill you. Even if they have say 3-4 creatures out and you play it for cmc of 4 you essentially just bolt them for every creature they have. want to take 12 damage as aggro? I sure the hell dont. "Oh, you just stabilized at 4 life with your grave titan and consecrated sphinx?"
Guess Im an idiot by most of your standards but as far as I am concerned this card is wonderful.
Killing Wave is good when you have a 0 to few big creatures and your opponent has significantly more yet smaller creatures. In that case, Black Sun's Zenith or any other mass damage spell will be a lot better. (Of course if these rotate out this will be the card to be.)
Killing wave is also good when you have significantly more life than your opponent.
This reminds me of the punisher mechanic too much.... which never worked out. I'd rather have a more reliable removal like BSZ or Damantion(haha of course) than this unreliable spell.
Killing wave will wreck in zombies... Geralfs messanger hits the yard gravecrawler eats it even black cat could be a nightmare all while you keep diregraft captain alive by damaging yourself... Oh and your opponent has to take massive damage or have no board presence
Oh dear lord. My bad that I read that its not one sided. Its still insane. against aggro they have to have creatures to kill you. Even if they have say 3-4 creatures out and you play it for cmc of 4 you essentially just bolt them for every creature they have. want to take 12 damage as aggro? I sure the hell dont. "Oh, you just stabilized at 4 life with your grave titan and consecrated sphinx?"
Guess Im an idiot by most of your standards but as far as I am concerned this card is wonderful.
I certainly wouldn't call you an idiot, but what you pointed out is the key to maximizing this card. It will realistically play more like an awkward (and potentially self-detrimental) Exsanguinate variant (sans life) that your opponent can opt out of by giving you more time.
And for the record, I love the design of the card and really love the art. I just can't bring myself to call this a sweeper.
Latch Seeker: Dunno, isn't this just Phantom Warrior but with different P/T?
Killing Wave: I just don't see this as being a good card. I'd much rather have Black Sun's Zenith over this. Too situational and conditional for me...
Druid's Repository: Flavor-wise, it really doesn't seem like an Innistard card to me. Ability-wise, I can see how it much be a fun card, similar to Black Market but a lot cheaper...
Craterhoof Behemoth: Umm...can you say Bulk Mythic? I'm sorry but I don't see 8 mana beasts being constructed playable. As for EDH, I can think of so many better green beaters than this..
Moonsilver Spear: I really like the flavour of this card. Not sure about its playability however as it costs a lot for an equipment (both to cast and equip). I mean if Luminarch Ascension didn't see play, why would this?
Restoration Angel: Quite neat ability on a better than average creature. I like this for both constructed and casual play. Solid card.
I'm loving the art on the promo Restoration Angel, and Killing Wave seems pretty interesting.
It's starting to look like a triple angel! It's so bright and vivid! OMG OMG OMGGGGGGG!!!!!
Man this set is full of win so far. (aside from the awful miracle mechanic) Can't wait for the rest.
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I thought Killing Wave was bad, and then I read it again and found out it affects you too.
Does nothing to fight aggro since they'll take the damage and continue to beat your face (as you've probably spent your turn casting Wave), and straight removal seems better if you are the aggro.
Maybe post-rotation, I'll try Killing Wave in a BR deck with Thunderous Wrath, Bump in the Night and whatever other nice burn/lifedrain cards we might get. In a deck like that, the choice to pay life for the creatures might not be as easy.
SummaNerd & ShadowFenril: Black Mono Aggro, your geralf's and recurring zombies is easy to just let go. Him losing life to have blockers might not be so solid for him.
I may just shell out the money and get one of those promo Killing Wave somewhere down the line. That artwork is gorgeous. Doesn't hurt that it might be my favorite card in the set so far, too. It's one that really rewards knowing exactly what number to choose for each number of creatures on the board; in that way it reminds me a lot of Choice of Damnations. Seems like it'd be disgusting against tokens. Even at X=3 we're talking substantial amounts of life against decks with 3+ creatures on board. Seems best in a deck that can then just dome the opponent for whatever they have left.
Restoration Angel seems decent. Latch Seeker is going to be a kill-on-sight card in Limited; reminds me of a slightly weaker Infiltrator-il-Kor, which was beastly. Druid's Repository seems awful even in casual. Moonsilver Spear is fantastic flavor-wise, and while it might go in my Elesh Norn EDH deck, I can't see much use anywhere else.
And finally, we get to Craterfoot Behemoth. Gee, what were the odds that they'd make yet another semi-vanilla big green creature with a boring ability and call it mythic just because it has haste? Someone there needs to learn how to make a green mythic that isn't a planeswalker, because with one exception they haven't succeeded yet.
Notably, it gets lot better as the game progresses. If you pay X, more than their life total, it's a one-sided damnation. Which in the late game, can easily be when there at 6-7 life. Against aggro, if you pay 4 (same as black sun) then they need to pay 3 life per creature. Assuming they have say.. 3 creatures. That's 9 life. That's alot of life. But, you're probably not going to play this turn 4. You're gonna survive, and play this like turn 6-7. It's not a good card against aggro. But it's a great card otherwise, and a good card FOR aggro.
EDIT: Well, not one-sided, but potentially.
Your making it sound like it doesn't affect your creatures as well....
For those people who says that Killing Wave is "good" against tokens, since when did a wrath effect(and a horrible, unreliable at that) hose tokens? I mean, we have Day of Judgement, Black Sun's Zenith and freaking Ratchet Bomb in the format for crying out loud and BW tokens is still a top tier deck.
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As an avid Green player I love Repository and Craterhoof Behemoth. Both fit well in my Virus deck that already has been performing extremely well, and Repository can potentially go nuts real real fast.
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I think a lot of people are missing the point of Killing Wave. In the mechanics article, it was mentioned that one of the themes of AVR was the "loner", creatures that tend to work best alone. So far, they've all been black (Demonic Taskmaster and Demonlord of Ashmouth). A R/B deck focused on burn and a single threat like the aforementioned Taskmaster means that your opponent has to choose between it being a Devil's Play for every creature he/she controls and a Plague Wind, whilst you only need to pay the measly life requirement. It decimates tokens and hurts tribal decks badly. There's a place for it that we haven't seen yet.
Craterhoof Behemoth does seem to be part of a cycle; mythic 8-mana creatures with powerful similar-to-previously-printed effects attached to a sizeable body. Avacyn has Elspeth's ultimate, Griselbrand has Yawgmoth's Bargain, and Behemoth gives Elder of Laurel's effect for everybody. Constructed play is only gonna happen in elf ramp decks where 8 mana is a viable thing, and there are lots of creatures to take advantage of getting 6 mana.
Speaking of green ramp, Druid's Repository seems very powerful. Indestructible, cheap creatures can be recurred many many times in order to pump up enough mana for a game ender; casting a Behemoth is a reasonable option with the Repository. The fact that it produces multicolor mana is extremely relevant, especially given that RTR is going to be a gold block. The fact that it recurs is just icing on the cake.
Latch Seeker is likely to be a major player in limited. Invisible stalker had the downside of needing equipment/enchantments to really make a difference, while this gives you a clock right away at the expense of durability (though given the general lack of easy removal and cheap burn in limited, it's not a huge drawback).
Angel of Jubilation is beginning to make me think that Angels are going to be a powerful hate deck, particularly against black. Restoration Angel hates on spot removal; Sigarda hates on sacrifice; Avacyn hates on any sort of destruction, and now Angel of Jubilation hates on so many sacrifice/pay life combos. It'll be interesting to see if we get any cheap angels to help round out the curve.
Plauge wind is a nice effect, sure. A conditional plague wind that requires the opponent to have more creatures that you, that requires you to be ahead on life, and that costs 6 mana and 5 life, is just not that hot though.
If you are aggro, and playing against control:
Killing wave is going to be a dead card, or a very expensive, conditional kill spell.
If you are aggro, and playing against combo:
Killing wave is going to be a dead card.
If you are agro, and playing against another agro deck, and you are currently ahead on board position:
Killing wave is going to be useless, because you will have to pay a lot more life for it than the opponent will.
If you are playing aggro vs another aggro deck, and the board positions and life totals are even, killing wave will be useless.
If you are aggro vs another aggro deck, and you are behind on life, and behind on board, they will just pay the life, and kill you.
If you are aggro vs another aggro deck, and you are behind on board, but ahead on life, and you have access to a bunch of mana... Well then, and only then is killing wave going to be useful. But even then, its not going to put you ahead, it will just even it out a little. You will trade your life total advantage, a bunch of tempo, and a card, for some board advantage. You will then both end up at relatively even boards, and life totals.
Look, I'm not saying the card is good, but this is completely flawed reasoning.
There are many awesome cards that are only good against certain archetypes and only good in certain board positions, like Manabarbs or Ghost Quarter or Burrenton Forge-Tender, they just need to be so good in that situation that it is worth to sideboard it.
Another interesting aspect about Killing Wave is that it is 1cc, so if there is any spell that ever allowed you to tutor for 1cc instants or sorceries (like a Trinket Mage or Ranger of Eos) this would be good utility for certain decks.
For example, I can see this being very good for controllish burn strategies that already splash for Bump in the Night. If you burnt your opponent early on so that he is at 11 life or so by turn 4, but he has enough creatures to put you in a tight spot if you don't do anything soon, this card is amazing at stabilizing the situation. Since it is that good for that ONE strategy in that ONE situation, then I see how the card has potential. It doesn't have to be good in the rest of them.
I think a lot of people are missing the point of Killing Wave. In the mechanics article, it was mentioned that one of the themes of AVR was the "loner", creatures that tend to work best alone. So far, they've all been black (Demonic Taskmaster and Demonlord of Ashmouth). A R/B deck focused on burn and a single threat like the aforementioned Taskmaster means that your opponent has to choose between it being a Devil's Play for every creature he/she controls and a Plague Wind, whilst you only need to pay the measly life requirement. It decimates tokens and hurts tribal decks badly. There's a place for it that we haven't seen yet.
Killing Wave doesnt decimate tokens... I'll gladly pay X life to keep a Hero of Bladehold on the field. I'll Re-stabalize with a Vault of the Archangel or flashback a lingering souls and be right back in it. Day of judgement and ratchet bomb will do a better job 99% of the time. I don't even think it goes good against tribal deck for the same reason (being able to keep your bomb). It's a meh card...
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Loved Killing Wave when I first read it...then did a double take, saw it said life instead of mana and now I'm feeling it much much less. Damn, looked so good at first.
Guess Im an idiot by most of your standards but as far as I am concerned this card is wonderful.
Thanks to Rivenor for the awesome Signature!
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Killing wave is also good when you have significantly more life than your opponent.
This reminds me of the punisher mechanic too much.... which never worked out. I'd rather have a more reliable removal like BSZ or Damantion(haha of course) than this unreliable spell.
I certainly wouldn't call you an idiot, but what you pointed out is the key to maximizing this card. It will realistically play more like an awkward (and potentially self-detrimental) Exsanguinate variant (sans life) that your opponent can opt out of by giving you more time.
And for the record, I love the design of the card and really love the art. I just can't bring myself to call this a sweeper.
Killing Wave: I just don't see this as being a good card. I'd much rather have Black Sun's Zenith over this. Too situational and conditional for me...
Druid's Repository: Flavor-wise, it really doesn't seem like an Innistard card to me. Ability-wise, I can see how it much be a fun card, similar to Black Market but a lot cheaper...
Craterhoof Behemoth: Umm...can you say Bulk Mythic? I'm sorry but I don't see 8 mana beasts being constructed playable. As for EDH, I can think of so many better green beaters than this..
Moonsilver Spear: I really like the flavour of this card. Not sure about its playability however as it costs a lot for an equipment (both to cast and equip). I mean if Luminarch Ascension didn't see play, why would this?
Restoration Angel: Quite neat ability on a better than average creature. I like this for both constructed and casual play. Solid card.
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It's starting to look like a triple angel! It's so bright and vivid! OMG OMG OMGGGGGGG!!!!!
Man this set is full of win so far. (aside from the awful miracle mechanic) Can't wait for the rest.
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation
BOf your own master planB
Like will the active player choose to sac/pay life for all their creatures of will the defending player choose first?
My solution would be that each player simultaneously puts their creatures into two piles (face down), one pile for sac and one for paying life.
Does nothing to fight aggro since they'll take the damage and continue to beat your face (as you've probably spent your turn casting Wave), and straight removal seems better if you are the aggro.
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Restoration Angel seems decent. Latch Seeker is going to be a kill-on-sight card in Limited; reminds me of a slightly weaker Infiltrator-il-Kor, which was beastly. Druid's Repository seems awful even in casual. Moonsilver Spear is fantastic flavor-wise, and while it might go in my Elesh Norn EDH deck, I can't see much use anywhere else.
And finally, we get to Craterfoot Behemoth. Gee, what were the odds that they'd make yet another semi-vanilla big green creature with a boring ability and call it mythic just because it has haste? Someone there needs to learn how to make a green mythic that isn't a planeswalker, because with one exception they haven't succeeded yet.
UBDragonlord Silumgar WGKarametra, God of Harvests
BRUNekusar, the Mindrazer BGMazirek, Kraul Death Priest
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Your making it sound like it doesn't affect your creatures as well....
Finding it very weird. Not colour-wise, but flavour-wise.
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Craterhoof Behemoth does seem to be part of a cycle; mythic 8-mana creatures with powerful similar-to-previously-printed effects attached to a sizeable body. Avacyn has Elspeth's ultimate, Griselbrand has Yawgmoth's Bargain, and Behemoth gives Elder of Laurel's effect for everybody. Constructed play is only gonna happen in elf ramp decks where 8 mana is a viable thing, and there are lots of creatures to take advantage of getting 6 mana.
Speaking of green ramp, Druid's Repository seems very powerful. Indestructible, cheap creatures can be recurred many many times in order to pump up enough mana for a game ender; casting a Behemoth is a reasonable option with the Repository. The fact that it produces multicolor mana is extremely relevant, especially given that RTR is going to be a gold block. The fact that it recurs is just icing on the cake.
Latch Seeker is likely to be a major player in limited. Invisible stalker had the downside of needing equipment/enchantments to really make a difference, while this gives you a clock right away at the expense of durability (though given the general lack of easy removal and cheap burn in limited, it's not a huge drawback).
Angel of Jubilation is beginning to make me think that Angels are going to be a powerful hate deck, particularly against black. Restoration Angel hates on spot removal; Sigarda hates on sacrifice; Avacyn hates on any sort of destruction, and now Angel of Jubilation hates on so many sacrifice/pay life combos. It'll be interesting to see if we get any cheap angels to help round out the curve.
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But not marvelously, it competes for the slot with the captain itself and the best spirits: Lingering Souls and the Big Chief William Howard Traft.
Look, I'm not saying the card is good, but this is completely flawed reasoning.
There are many awesome cards that are only good against certain archetypes and only good in certain board positions, like Manabarbs or Ghost Quarter or Burrenton Forge-Tender, they just need to be so good in that situation that it is worth to sideboard it.
Another interesting aspect about Killing Wave is that it is 1cc, so if there is any spell that ever allowed you to tutor for 1cc instants or sorceries (like a Trinket Mage or Ranger of Eos) this would be good utility for certain decks.
For example, I can see this being very good for controllish burn strategies that already splash for Bump in the Night. If you burnt your opponent early on so that he is at 11 life or so by turn 4, but he has enough creatures to put you in a tight spot if you don't do anything soon, this card is amazing at stabilizing the situation. Since it is that good for that ONE strategy in that ONE situation, then I see how the card has potential. It doesn't have to be good in the rest of them.
Killing Wave doesnt decimate tokens... I'll gladly pay X life to keep a Hero of Bladehold on the field. I'll Re-stabalize with a Vault of the Archangel or flashback a lingering souls and be right back in it. Day of judgement and ratchet bomb will do a better job 99% of the time. I don't even think it goes good against tribal deck for the same reason (being able to keep your bomb). It's a meh card...
GRAggroRG
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Millions of our years
In minutes disappears
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