This was printed for the casual crowd definitely. Anybody that thinks this was printed to see play in a tournament is wrong. I only see two things when I look at this.
It's and 8/8 for 8. Biggest white creature ever. Remember Colossus of Sardia? Yeah. Thats what 8 mana got you back in my day.
People have wanted this ability forever. This just gave them the excuse.
Basically they took 2 gimmicks, slapped it on a card, and called it a day. Boooring design guys, but I'm an old jaded player so :shrugs:
It's not really the biggest white creature, ever. Transcendent Master has Avacyn beaten. That's not counting Autochthon Wurm and Progenitus if you're counting multicolored, either.
I'd pick up 20-30 if they go for a dollar, lol. Probably will sit around 7-10, based on mythic + flavor + possible wincon (though helvault is mythic + flavor as well, and is under a dollar)
when I saw this, I was super disappointed. I thought for sure we would get an angel+human epic lord...
It is better than Elesh though. Maybe a 1-2 of in a deck that can use it.
No, this card is not better than Elesh. Not even CLOSE. Not even in the same ballpark. Three words: immediate board impact. Keeping your dudes alive is nowhere near as important as getting rid of theirs. Elesh is THE gifts target in Modern. Avacyn won't even get a second look. As for Legacy, hell no. You couldn't pay me to run this overcosted, flashy waste of space, even (and perhaps especially) in reanimator. Obviously not a Standard card. This is an EDH card.
A few reasons-
1- More like 4CMC... see Resurrection, Breath of Life, and friends.
2- It's a UW control deck, so I'll have counters for the Paths and Swords.
3- the deck already has Elspeth... Avacyn will just be extra insurance/finisher
You sir, obviously do not play legacy.
There are FAR better reanimation targets in legacy. I won't go listing them again. And how is a U/W control deck going to reliably get her into the graveyard to be reanimated? Gifts? Why not just play reanimator if reanimation is your game plan? And why save your counters to protect her from swords and paths when you can just reanimate an Inkwell Leviathan and ignore their spot removal? What other permanents do you give a **** about protecting? If you successfully reanimate a fatty, you should be stomping face, not worrying about your opponent wasting your Tundra.
why does it say "avacyn, angel of hope and other permanents you control are indestructible" instead of "permanents you control are indestructible"? its unnecessary wording that i thought wizards was making strong attempts to remove
So, SCG has her pre-ordering at $15. If she drops to about half that, I'll consider proactively picking up a copy. Other than that, I'll only trade for her.
It is better than Elesh though. Maybe a 1-2 of in a deck that can use it.
The card does nothing to advocate its usage over any of the current possible finishers/big creatures. If she had lifelink, sure, I'd play her, but as it stands she doesn't save you from anything, just delays the inevitable in standard. If you get an Elesh Norn into play against any deck, their guys are smaller, so you either kill them or make them largely insignificant, you get a blocker, and your blockers are gigantic. Normally she's killed a few creatures on entering the field - so you've gained significant advantage there. Avacyn simply sits there, waiting to be chump blocked or vapor snagged, oblivion ringed or tapped down, bypassed by Sword of War and Peace, Invisible stalker, exiled by karn, or waiting for the last 6 cards of your library get milled, etc. Heck, Volition Reins on her is a huge blowout, because it's hard to remove the reins now.
As many players will now, even having the most gigantic blocker will not save you from swarms of creatures. Elesh Norn will, Avacyn won't, titans might. It's ironic flavorwise that Avacyn does pretty much nothing to protect you from dying from hordes of werewolves, vampires and zombies. Timely Reinforcements actually does more than Avacyn in that situation.
HOWEVER.
Against Wolf Run, it's better than Elesh Norn. Sort of. I mean, sure, Elesh Norn shuts down Nexus, shrinks titans, but Avacyn is immune to all their removal besides Karn. YEAHHHHHHH.
Sarcasm aside, players have a use for Moldgraf Monstrosity in Pod lists now. Since you can Pod into an eight mana decent creature, whereas the party always closed after elesh showed up.
Reading over my post, it does seem way negative. It's a nice card, not particuarly flavorful to me, but still a nice card. In limited, it's ridiculous, it should also be super mythic rare, because seeing avacyn at one in 3/4 drafts would kill her legendary status a bit. (calculation that there will be about 20 mythics, so foils and mythics, 24 packs between 8 players). It's just there are better options. Once those options rotate, I'd actually rather Moldengraf Monstrosity or Drogskol Reaver. The former is a nice beater that lets the decks that play it play a bit more like old solar flare (giant beater that gets value when it dies, then you bring it back) and the later actually gets you ahead and WILL save you from hordes of vampires, werewolves and zombies.
Oh, and in terms of crimes against Flavor: Avacyn cannot protect herself or any of the humans on the table from Olivia Voldaren. At all.
I just hate this card, lazy design, the art feels wrong, the favour text is unimpressive, there isn't any thing here that I like.
Even in casual this is a second rate card, and for me doesn't even have that much appeal.
I agree 100%.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath, was oozing with flavor. In addition to that, she had tons of impressive abilities. Although by today's standards, she may appear lackluster, she still had the presence of being something truly terrifying.
[CARD]
Karona, the False God[/CARD], while terrible in every format was still oozing with flavor and represented her chaotic side.
With Avacyn, I was hoping for something that showed how powerful she was and how the "evils" of Avacyn were warded off. But this just feels like a fattie with indestructible attached onto it. It rates near the awesomeness of Deathless Angel and Aegis Angel.
If you have Avacyn, Angel of Hope and a plainswalker you control on the battlefield and the plainswalker goes to zero or less loyalty tokens, does this plainswalker still die?
If you have Avacyn, Angel of Hope and a plainswalker you control on the battlefield and the plainswalker goes to zero or less loyalty tokens, does this plainswalker still die?
Pretty sure it's the same case as a creature going to 0 toughness; so yes, that's what I think happens.
If you have Avacyn, Angel of Hope and a plainswalker you control on the battlefield and the plainswalker goes to zero or less loyalty tokens, does this plainswalker still die?
Yes, because a planeswalker whose loyalty is reduced to 0 is put inot its owner's graveyard as a state-based action, similarly to how a creature whose toughness is reduced to 0 is put into its owner's graveyard as a state-based action.
Private Mod Note
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Pretty funny when an 8/8 for 8 flying vigilance everything is indestructible fails to wow most viewers even a little. My we are spoiled
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have cared 10 years ago either, as until very recently creatures that cost 5+ mana just flat out sucked unless used as finishers in control decks, and WWW doesn't make for a good control deck finisher.
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have cared 10 years ago either, as until very recently creatures that cost 5+ mana just flat out sucked unless used as finishers in control decks, and WWW doesn't make for a good control deck finisher.
Triple of a colored mana means absolutely nothing late game.
Why do you think decks have been running both White and Blue Sun's Zenith in the same decks? That's even more extreme than just playing 1 triple symbol'ed card.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Is it not rather anti-climactic for Avacyn herself to be the first card previewed from Avacyn Restored, as she is the title character of the set? Surely, it would have been far more dramatic to preview other cards first, and have her as one of the final cards previewed?
Private Mod Note
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
You guys want to know why Avacyn is such a big deal? Because she's going to be the only playable card in AVR. Everything else will be on the level of Razor Boomerang.
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It's not really the biggest white creature, ever. Transcendent Master has Avacyn beaten. That's not counting Autochthon Wurm and Progenitus if you're counting multicolored, either.
I'd pick up 20-30 if they go for a dollar, lol. Probably will sit around 7-10, based on mythic + flavor + possible wincon (though helvault is mythic + flavor as well, and is under a dollar)
when I saw this, I was super disappointed. I thought for sure we would get an angel+human epic lord...
My WTB - EDH stuff
No, this card is not better than Elesh. Not even CLOSE. Not even in the same ballpark. Three words: immediate board impact. Keeping your dudes alive is nowhere near as important as getting rid of theirs. Elesh is THE gifts target in Modern. Avacyn won't even get a second look. As for Legacy, hell no. You couldn't pay me to run this overcosted, flashy waste of space, even (and perhaps especially) in reanimator. Obviously not a Standard card. This is an EDH card.
Edit: Here is what everyone wanted to see:
Avacyn, Angel of Hope - 2WW
Flying, lifelink, hexproof
4/4
CG
You sir, obviously do not play legacy.
There are FAR better reanimation targets in legacy. I won't go listing them again. And how is a U/W control deck going to reliably get her into the graveyard to be reanimated? Gifts? Why not just play reanimator if reanimation is your game plan? And why save your counters to protect her from swords and paths when you can just reanimate an Inkwell Leviathan and ignore their spot removal? What other permanents do you give a **** about protecting? If you successfully reanimate a fatty, you should be stomping face, not worrying about your opponent wasting your Tundra.
Legacy
Control
Miracles
All flavors of Stoneblade
Aggro
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
Burn
Combo
Dredge
TES/ANT
UR & UB Reanimator
Belcher
why does it say "avacyn, angel of hope and other permanents you control are indestructible" instead of "permanents you control are indestructible"? its unnecessary wording that i thought wizards was making strong attempts to remove
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=392209
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
The card does nothing to advocate its usage over any of the current possible finishers/big creatures. If she had lifelink, sure, I'd play her, but as it stands she doesn't save you from anything, just delays the inevitable in standard. If you get an Elesh Norn into play against any deck, their guys are smaller, so you either kill them or make them largely insignificant, you get a blocker, and your blockers are gigantic. Normally she's killed a few creatures on entering the field - so you've gained significant advantage there. Avacyn simply sits there, waiting to be chump blocked or vapor snagged, oblivion ringed or tapped down, bypassed by Sword of War and Peace, Invisible stalker, exiled by karn, or waiting for the last 6 cards of your library get milled, etc. Heck, Volition Reins on her is a huge blowout, because it's hard to remove the reins now.
As many players will now, even having the most gigantic blocker will not save you from swarms of creatures. Elesh Norn will, Avacyn won't, titans might. It's ironic flavorwise that Avacyn does pretty much nothing to protect you from dying from hordes of werewolves, vampires and zombies. Timely Reinforcements actually does more than Avacyn in that situation.
HOWEVER.
Against Wolf Run, it's better than Elesh Norn. Sort of. I mean, sure, Elesh Norn shuts down Nexus, shrinks titans, but Avacyn is immune to all their removal besides Karn. YEAHHHHHHH.
Sarcasm aside, players have a use for Moldgraf Monstrosity in Pod lists now. Since you can Pod into an eight mana decent creature, whereas the party always closed after elesh showed up.
Reading over my post, it does seem way negative. It's a nice card, not particuarly flavorful to me, but still a nice card. In limited, it's ridiculous, it should also be super mythic rare, because seeing avacyn at one in 3/4 drafts would kill her legendary status a bit. (calculation that there will be about 20 mythics, so foils and mythics, 24 packs between 8 players). It's just there are better options. Once those options rotate, I'd actually rather Moldengraf Monstrosity or Drogskol Reaver. The former is a nice beater that lets the decks that play it play a bit more like old solar flare (giant beater that gets value when it dies, then you bring it back) and the later actually gets you ahead and WILL save you from hordes of vampires, werewolves and zombies.
Oh, and in terms of crimes against Flavor: Avacyn cannot protect herself or any of the humans on the table from Olivia Voldaren. At all.
EDIT: Also, Phantasmal Image.
UB UB control (bad, but at least I crush control)
UWR tempo.
Modern:
BUG teachings
UGW Cloudstone Value
EDH:
UBR Thraximundar
UBW Sharuum, the Hegemon (fair deck, I swear)
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
BG Savra, Queen of the Golgari
RUG Intet, the Dreamer
I agree 100%.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath, was oozing with flavor. In addition to that, she had tons of impressive abilities. Although by today's standards, she may appear lackluster, she still had the presence of being something truly terrifying.
[CARD]
Karona, the False God[/CARD], while terrible in every format was still oozing with flavor and represented her chaotic side.
With Avacyn, I was hoping for something that showed how powerful she was and how the "evils" of Avacyn were warded off. But this just feels like a fattie with indestructible attached onto it. It rates near the awesomeness of Deathless Angel and Aegis Angel.
Which happen to be very popular to newer players. Maybe this card isn't designed for you.
Agreed. I can see how they really didn't want to break it at all. I kinda wished they'd pushed the envelope, but eh.
UB UB control (bad, but at least I crush control)
UWR tempo.
Modern:
BUG teachings
UGW Cloudstone Value
EDH:
UBR Thraximundar
UBW Sharuum, the Hegemon (fair deck, I swear)
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
BG Savra, Queen of the Golgari
RUG Intet, the Dreamer
Iwamori says "Just Bring It!"
Edric's Spiesssssssss (Snake Tribal) GU
Sliver Overlord (Slivers Galore!!) WUBRG
Ruhan of the Fomori RWU
Seton, Krosan ProtectorG
Intet, The Dreamer (Hive Mind + Scrambleverse anyone?) URG
Karona, False God the Goddess of Tribal - Samurai, P3K Horsemen, 5c MyrsWUBRG
Garza's Family UBR
Sygg, River Guide and his merry merrowmen UB
Sharuum, the Hedgemon Sphinx Tribal
As a result, almost everything of interest is inside the envelope at this point. There's no need to push it any farther.
True. I suspect that they'll continue putting aggressive smaller creatures though, like Geist and Thrun.
... I suspect that one of the other angels will actually be more playable than Avacyn in standard.
UB UB control (bad, but at least I crush control)
UWR tempo.
Modern:
BUG teachings
UGW Cloudstone Value
EDH:
UBR Thraximundar
UBW Sharuum, the Hegemon (fair deck, I swear)
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
BG Savra, Queen of the Golgari
RUG Intet, the Dreamer
If you have Avacyn, Angel of Hope and a plainswalker you control on the battlefield and the plainswalker goes to zero or less loyalty tokens, does this plainswalker still die?
Pretty sure it's the same case as a creature going to 0 toughness; so yes, that's what I think happens.
Also, planeswalker. /sigh
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
Yes, because a planeswalker whose loyalty is reduced to 0 is put inot its owner's graveyard as a state-based action, similarly to how a creature whose toughness is reduced to 0 is put into its owner's graveyard as a state-based action.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Currently Playing in Modern: U/W Control
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have cared 10 years ago either, as until very recently creatures that cost 5+ mana just flat out sucked unless used as finishers in control decks, and WWW doesn't make for a good control deck finisher.
Triple of a colored mana means absolutely nothing late game.
Why do you think decks have been running both White and Blue Sun's Zenith in the same decks? That's even more extreme than just playing 1 triple symbol'ed card.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt