Is it worth the trouble? I would do it, and get rid of the creature type list, so you can name anything that comes to your head.
So without creature type list, all subtypes are equal, right? I take that to mean changeling now grants every subtype due to errata. This again would make for great mana fixing with Mutavault.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I was so disappointed that the New Phyrexia shrine cycle did not have the type "Artifact - Shrine". While it's irrelevant for Limited, Standard, Block, Extended, Modern, Legacy, and Vintage, it enables a lot of casual decks and some EDH decks. That they didn't do that disappoints me.
Is it worth the trouble? I would do it, and get rid of the creature type list, so you can name anything that comes to your head.
And you wouldn't have the awkward looking "tribal" on your type line, which only stands for "oh, this is not a sorcery type, but a creature type", which doesn't feel intuitive by the way.
So, you'd change thousands of other cards in Oracle in order to make a few dozen look a little more elegant?
That's not getting into how unintuitive some cards might be. Let's take Akroma's Blessing. It has Akroma in the art, so intuitively it should be an Angel instant...but Onslaught didn't have Angel tribal, it had Cleric tribal. Still, flavorwise, probably Instant - Angel.
Let's look at Flow of Ideas. The flavor text says Izzet, and the water works of Ravnica are definitely Izzet's domain. Sadly, the Izzet guild is composed of humans, goblins, vedalken, and some dragons. So, which should it be?
Obviously Sorcery - Merfolk, as evidenced by its Shadowmoor reappearance.
The line on where to start thinking older cards should have had creature types is a fuzzy one, it seems.
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I was so disappointed that the New Phyrexia shrine cycle did not have the type "Artifact - Shrine". While it's irrelevant for Limited, Standard, Block, Extended, Modern, Legacy, and Vintage, it enables a lot of casual decks and some EDH decks. That they didn't do that disappoints me.
Umm how is it not relevant to Modern,Legacy & Vintage?Those are the only places where they would be together at the same time.
And the whole point of making the Honden legendary was so that they wouldn't be overpowered.I think MaRo told us that they started out nonlegendary and found out that they were to much if a player had many out.Having artifact shrines would make them overpowered.Hell Mirror Gallery does that as is.
Dont get me wrong flavor wise it makes sense but game play wise it would just annoy more that would enjoy it.
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Umm how is it not relevant to Modern,Legacy & Vintage?Those are the only places where they would be together at the same time.
His point is they're nowhere near good enough for those formats, and adding the shrine type would therefore have only mattered in casual play, while being an interesting interaction.
I always thought tribal was an inelegent solution anyway. I realize there's all sorts of issues over creature types on non-creature spells but it seems like that's easier to deal with by tweaking the rules a bit than the potential problems of the Tribal type.
I do think Tribal Spells regardless of the Tribal Type itself should stick around as an evergreen thing. When you have an incredibly thematic spell (and there are always afew) there's not much to be lost in making it a creature-typed spell.
Edit: The simple fix is obviously to dissociate subtypes from creatures. Turning a goblin into a plains doesn't let it tap for mana because it still isn't a land. Unless you also turn it into a land it doesn't magically become one just because it has a land "subtype". Let subtypes show up on anything with their functionality be tied to their type. The important part of Creature -- Goblin or Land -- Plains is the Creature and Land; not what comes after.
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I always thought tribal was an inelegent solution anyway. I realize there's all sorts of issues over creature types on non-creature spells but it seems like that's easier to deal with by tweaking the rules a bit than the potential problems of the Tribal type.
I do think Tribal Spells regardless of the Tribal Type itself should stick around as an evergreen thing. When you have an incredibly thematic spell (and there are always afew) there's not much to be lost in making it a creature-typed spell.
Edit: The simple fix is obviously to dissociate subtypes from creatures. Turning a goblin into a plains doesn't let it tap for mana because it still isn't a land. Unless you also turn it into a land it doesn't magically become one just because it has a land "subtype". Let subtypes show up on anything with their functionality be tied to their type. The important part of Creature -- Goblin or Land -- Plains is the Creature and Land; not what comes after.
If there were a 'simple fix', Wizards would have gone that way. However there wasn't. They would have needed to tweak the rules more than 'a bit' in order to make the tribal mechanic work without the need for Tribal type or supertype.
I do agree that the mechanic should stick around though. Having some spells directly associated with a certain creature type is just great and opens up neat interactions (like the Lorwyn Harbingers). It should go with any noncreature, nonland card that mentions a certain creature type by name (like Feast of Blood). That would restrict the tribal mechanic to just the spells were it makes sense. No need to give Akroma's Blessing the Angel subtype, since the card's effect has nothing to do with Angels.
Sorry I am late to this discussion, but the decision that WoTC may now abandon the card-type Tribal doesn't sit well with me, in fact, it nearly pisses me off. I'm a casual gamer, and the one of the things I do is to build tribal themed decks (if they're any good, that's another topic). For me, Tribal offered neat interactions with my hobby. And now that it may be taken away, really irks me.
I do think we do have a voice in helping to reverse this decision. I think we all can leave reminders on Maro's twitter account not to leave behind this flavorful portion of the game. Remind WoTC that we vote with our dollars when it comes to entertainment outlets.
Maro lies. He said Shadow was never coming back while Time Spiral was in design, for example. Tribal will be back the next time there's an awful tribal block.
I know this is old, and I'm sure I already wrote this in this thread, but it's worth mentioning again that I like non-creatures with creature types, and they should be doing some in every set, not eliminating it.
By the way, Maro didn't say they will never use it, like so many people keep on saying he did. He outright says there will likely be specific uses for it in the future. Just don't expect it to be commonly used.
Yes, I am announcing the probable death knell of the tribal card type. (I could imagine a specific use, like the Eldrazi spells in Rise, that might pull it out of mothballs.)
This is another example of them just not bothering imo. Tribal synergies pop up in every block pretty much. Keeping tribes relevant outside of standard is as simple as keeping the tribes generic, and letting flavor make them different. It's not like we haven't had a million zombies, elves, goblins and whatnot already. Them printing cards like that Illusion lord are just as narrow and cliche as printing tribal on other card types, it's obvious, and with the current trend in making cards seem more "global" or "interactive" (for instance, target player raise dead), the new tribes will remain trends until they are tied together universally. There are a core 1-2 "tribes" per color, it's about time WotC acknowledge them upfront, instead of making each block seem more disconnected from the last. It's all in the same universe, and the "planes" keep everything possible.
Any and all relation to older formats should be ignored, if anything this would make a ton of cards more playable OUTSIDE of standard. There was a TON of design space there, considering how desperate WotC is becoming concerning trying new things (Transform is still a joke of a design, regardless of it's balance in the game), you'd think they would actually try working on things that worked just fine in both casual and competitive play before trashing them.
Rant over, hearing the creative figurehead of a company saying "We gave up on it" is just sad.
EDIT: Basically, they found a great way to tie spells together outside of color, that was easily understandable, while remaining flavorful and very playable.
Then again, my problem with tribal is more basic, and not related to the "Tribal" type at all. Why isn't Goblin Grenade a Goblin card? If they were operating under a paradigm that "all instants which should, thematically, get types will get types", it would have a type. If they were operating under a paradigm that "all instants which should, mechanically, get types will get types", it would have a type. But it doesn't.
Unless you're prepared to errata hundreds of cards - including some judgment calls where some cards have the type and others don't, and no way to know except gatherer - there's just no way to be consistent about this.
We are prepared to errata hundreds of cards- including some judgment calls, with no way of knowing heads or tails without gatherer. If we had "The great creature type update", I fail to see why we could not have "The great tribal update". I see no distinction, other than there are some people who don't like tribal.
We are prepared to errata hundreds of cards- including some judgment calls, with no way of knowing heads or tails without gatherer. If we had "The great creature type update", I fail to see why we could not have "The great tribal update". I see no distinction, other than there are some people who don't like tribal.
This isn't really realistic though, it would be far too much of a problem in Legacy determining whether or not there is a Tribal type card in a graveyard. Seems like an unnecessary time waste for judges to have to look up random instances and sorceries.
The only reason I can think of is to protect the Flashback mechanic, but in my opinion thats just a stupid way to protect an, as of now, uncompetitive mechanic. Tribal cards are so much more awesome.
Other than that the errata thing just is something that is making a problem out of something that doesnt have to be one. Tribal is a mechanic that is relatively new, and why would you have to update all previous cards that are eligible for said mechanic? What is the problem with just using it on solely new cards?
Not every card mentioning a type in a beneficial way has to be tribal, anyway, just the obvious examples above of sorceries that create creatures of a certain type, that you can never (flashback mechanics not taken into account) recur like normal creatures.
Did you read the linked article? It tells you why they weren't using flashback in this set.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
This is a shame to hear. I really enjoy the Tribal type and its interactions with the game. Revealing a Changeling card for a Tribal Land is still a favorite play of mine. Ahhh, memories.
I thought the tribal supertype added some flavor to the game; kind of a shame to see it go.
But there is one thing that's kind of puzzled me: why is it that "tribal" counts as a card type as opposed to a supertype (like "Legendary")? A "Tribal" by itself is nothing; in order to be a card it would have to have another actual established card type (ex: Tribal Sorcery, Tribal Enchantment). "Legendary" doesn't give Tarmogoyf an extra +1/+1, but "Tribal" does?
Then again, maybe Wizards was trying to be like Riddick and slyly convert an adjective into a noun.
I thought the tribal supertype added some flavor to the game; kind of a shame to see it go.
But there is one thing that's kind of puzzled me: why is it that "tribal" counts as a card type as opposed to a supertype (like "Legendary")? A "Tribal" by itself is nothing; in order to be a card it would have to have another actual established card type (ex: Tribal Sorcery, Tribal Enchantment). "Legendary" doesn't give Tarmogoyf an extra +1/+1, but "Tribal" does?
Then again, maybe Wizards was trying to be like Riddick and slyly convert an adjective into a noun.
tribal had to be a card type to give creature types to noncreaturecards.
it was a bad fix. it's gone. good riddance.
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
Those lands are not tribal (unfortunately). So nothing will change there.
I'm perfectly aware that the lands themselves don't have Tribal supertype. Though, they are referred to among players often as tribal lands because of their creature type based mechanic. But since the card I usually revealed for Secluded Glen was Nameless Inversion or Bitterblossom, I think the lack of supertype would effect the play.
Tribal is not a Supertype. Supertypes don't have Subtypes.
I think the confusion over this is exactly why Tribal isn't likely to come back.
But there is one thing that's kind of puzzled me: why is it that "tribal" counts as a card type as opposed to a supertype (like "Legendary")? A "Tribal" by itself is nothing; in order to be a card it would have to have another actual established card type (ex: Tribal Sorcery, Tribal Enchantment). "Legendary" doesn't give Tarmogoyf an extra +1/+1, but "Tribal" does?
fun fact: I can think of two cards that could be only Tribal and not lose (much) functionality.
So without creature type list, all subtypes are equal, right? I take that to mean changeling now grants every subtype due to errata. This again would make for great mana fixing with Mutavault.
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So, you'd change thousands of other cards in Oracle in order to make a few dozen look a little more elegant?
That's not getting into how unintuitive some cards might be. Let's take Akroma's Blessing. It has Akroma in the art, so intuitively it should be an Angel instant...but Onslaught didn't have Angel tribal, it had Cleric tribal. Still, flavorwise, probably Instant - Angel.
Let's look at Flow of Ideas. The flavor text says Izzet, and the water works of Ravnica are definitely Izzet's domain. Sadly, the Izzet guild is composed of humans, goblins, vedalken, and some dragons. So, which should it be?
Obviously Sorcery - Merfolk, as evidenced by its Shadowmoor reappearance.
The line on where to start thinking older cards should have had creature types is a fuzzy one, it seems.
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Umm how is it not relevant to Modern,Legacy & Vintage?Those are the only places where they would be together at the same time.
And the whole point of making the Honden legendary was so that they wouldn't be overpowered.I think MaRo told us that they started out nonlegendary and found out that they were to much if a player had many out.Having artifact shrines would make them overpowered.Hell Mirror Gallery does that as is.
Dont get me wrong flavor wise it makes sense but game play wise it would just annoy more that would enjoy it.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
His point is they're nowhere near good enough for those formats, and adding the shrine type would therefore have only mattered in casual play, while being an interesting interaction.
I do think Tribal Spells regardless of the Tribal Type itself should stick around as an evergreen thing. When you have an incredibly thematic spell (and there are always afew) there's not much to be lost in making it a creature-typed spell.
Edit: The simple fix is obviously to dissociate subtypes from creatures. Turning a goblin into a plains doesn't let it tap for mana because it still isn't a land. Unless you also turn it into a land it doesn't magically become one just because it has a land "subtype". Let subtypes show up on anything with their functionality be tied to their type. The important part of Creature -- Goblin or Land -- Plains is the Creature and Land; not what comes after.
If there were a 'simple fix', Wizards would have gone that way. However there wasn't. They would have needed to tweak the rules more than 'a bit' in order to make the tribal mechanic work without the need for Tribal type or supertype.
I do agree that the mechanic should stick around though. Having some spells directly associated with a certain creature type is just great and opens up neat interactions (like the Lorwyn Harbingers). It should go with any noncreature, nonland card that mentions a certain creature type by name (like Feast of Blood). That would restrict the tribal mechanic to just the spells were it makes sense. No need to give Akroma's Blessing the Angel subtype, since the card's effect has nothing to do with Angels.
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I do think we do have a voice in helping to reverse this decision. I think we all can leave reminders on Maro's twitter account not to leave behind this flavorful portion of the game. Remind WoTC that we vote with our dollars when it comes to entertainment outlets.
Any and all relation to older formats should be ignored, if anything this would make a ton of cards more playable OUTSIDE of standard. There was a TON of design space there, considering how desperate WotC is becoming concerning trying new things (Transform is still a joke of a design, regardless of it's balance in the game), you'd think they would actually try working on things that worked just fine in both casual and competitive play before trashing them.
Rant over, hearing the creative figurehead of a company saying "We gave up on it" is just sad.
EDIT: Basically, they found a great way to tie spells together outside of color, that was easily understandable, while remaining flavorful and very playable.
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We are prepared to errata hundreds of cards- including some judgment calls, with no way of knowing heads or tails without gatherer. If we had "The great creature type update", I fail to see why we could not have "The great tribal update". I see no distinction, other than there are some people who don't like tribal.
This isn't really realistic though, it would be far too much of a problem in Legacy determining whether or not there is a Tribal type card in a graveyard. Seems like an unnecessary time waste for judges to have to look up random instances and sorceries.
Did you read the linked article? It tells you why they weren't using flashback in this set.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
They did use flashback in the set, though.
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But there is one thing that's kind of puzzled me: why is it that "tribal" counts as a card type as opposed to a supertype (like "Legendary")? A "Tribal" by itself is nothing; in order to be a card it would have to have another actual established card type (ex: Tribal Sorcery, Tribal Enchantment). "Legendary" doesn't give Tarmogoyf an extra +1/+1, but "Tribal" does?
Then again, maybe Wizards was trying to be like Riddick and slyly convert an adjective into a noun.
tribal had to be a card type to give creature types to noncreature cards.
it was a bad fix. it's gone. good riddance.
I'm perfectly aware that the lands themselves don't have Tribal supertype. Though, they are referred to among players often as tribal lands because of their creature type based mechanic. But since the card I usually revealed for Secluded Glen was Nameless Inversion or Bitterblossom, I think the lack of supertype would effect the play.
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Well, except it's not gone. It's just going to be used very infrequently...
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I think the confusion over this is exactly why Tribal isn't likely to come back.
fun fact: I can think of two cards that could be only Tribal and not lose (much) functionality.
And those are?