Well, glad I didn't invest that money in Shoal, and so very happy I sold off my Vesuva when it hit the high mark. And the ban list just keeps getting bigger and bigger...
I do not like the banning of Ponder/Preordain in Modern, though, when the combo decks can be neutered in other ways. But OTOH, I hope this means Control becomes viable now, and the specter of 12 Post goes away to whatever Hell spawned such blasphemy - a deck so powerful hate was required, but the hate required forced decks to recognize its presence, even if it could never make headway past the hate, but if the hate was not present, it would run roughshod.
Eager to see the adjustments, but I was hoping for some unbannings, too.
Also, plain to see that Mental Misstep was yet another mistake WotC made and quickly swung the hammer on. Saw that coming when it was spoiled.
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Decks
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
All of the bannings other than GSZ were correct. I am not 100% on GSZ but in my opinion it should not have been banned because it was not doing anything inherently broken. It was a good, flexible card that gave the decks a large amount of play at all stages in the game and nothing else...
Mental Misstep getting banned everywhere reminds me of Skullclamp... now it's official: WotC always ends up spawning something broken every time they venture in Mirrodin. I wonder if they'll ever attempt it again someday... probably not, now that Mirrodin has become New Phyrexia.
Anyway, I've seen some people complain that free counterspells are the solution to the current Modern... seriously, when are they going to understand that WotC is not going to allow any "strong" counterspells ("strong" = counters any spell without restrictions, gets rid of it permanently and doesn't give the opponent a way around it) to exist below 3CC (barring a few exceptions, such as Deprive) in Modern, Extended and Standard?
Countermagic is one of the most powerful disrupting effects in Magic (IMO, they are second only to effects that disrupt a player's mana base). WotC is fully aware of that, and has decided that 3 is the lowest acceptable cost for strong counters; that's why Counterspell hasn't seen reprint ever since 7th Edition, and that's why Force of Will isn't going to be reprinted, nor will they make anything similar to it.
Does it hurt control players? Yes, it does; having no reliable counters until T3 (T2 with a T1 mana accelerator) hurts them a lot. However, letting them have their way hurts everyone else; for every counterspell user who is sad about it, there is a considerable number of players who are happy because they can cast their spells without fearing a counter at every moment, even from a tapped out opponent.
Anyone who wants to counter stuff for free should stick to Legacy/Vintage and not complain; Modern won't have any of that.
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The card nearly every spoiled Magic player dreams of:
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
I honestly don't see how Disrupting Shoal is relevant, considering the card you pitch has to match the CMC of the card you want to counter. I guess if Merfolk or Faeries could run it to some major effect, it'd warrant the $8 price-tag.
Bans are lulzy, too bad for everyone who didn't see them coming and decided to netdeck early.
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
I was talking about the strong counters, and Disrupting Shoal fails at the "counters any spell without restrictions" requirement, as it's heavily restricted by the fact that one or more cards in your hand have to match the cost of the spell you want to counter.
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The card nearly every spoiled Magic player dreams of:
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
Even a superficial examination of the Modern metagame before today will let one draw a few conclusions: that Cloudpost is a deck almost tailor-built to savage traditional control (even as it puts up mediocre results against the rest of the field), or that combo decks that can win on turn 2 can easily outrace the control tools available in the format.
These bans are going to alter both of those factors (by removing Cloudpost entirely and by slowing the "kill turn" of combo decks to turn 4.)
What effect do you think those changes will have on the viability of control in the format?
The vast majority, likely a plurality, of players could care less about fun and diversity
No, the majority of players care quite a bit about fun and diversity (which is in turn why WotC cares, and why you see tournament attendance drop like a rock when CawBlade is 70% of the field etc.)
I think what's more accurate here is that the majority of frequent tournament players are not actually interested in deckbuilding, they're interested in piloting proven decks.
There are two kinds of Bridge (the card game) players.
People who enjoy playing Bridge, and people who don't know how to do anything else, other than play Bridge. There legitimately are people who have played Bridge for 30+ years, and physically don't know how to stop.
It does appear, that this same phenomena may be happening with Magic. The majority of players (in my experience) want interesting game play. this usually involves interaction, slower games (games doing to turn 8+), and games where the outcome is uncertain and hopefully even(ish).
However, there seems to be a growing number of people who play Magic, simply because they have been playing it for so long. Doing anything other than playing Magic, playing Magic to Win, even if unfun!, is the only thing that they physically can do.
Going back to bridge, there was a study done, that the majority of Bridge players over the age of 70 actively dislike playing Bridge. They are Not having a good time. But, they simply don't know what else to do.
The study concluded that Pavlovian conditioning had occured in these individuals, they had simply played Bridge so much, that even though they were not having fun anymore, they kept playing anyway.
I obviously do not mean to insult anyone, but anyone who says that they don't play Magic to have fun should reexamine their statement. Why are you playing Magic? What purpose does Magic actually serve in your life?
PS I apologize to anyone who enjoys the game of Bridge, I'm sure its fantastic :), I was just illustrating a proven point.
All I know is that legacy without mental misstep is not a format I enjoy.
Now, after dumping my legacy deck I have an extra 2k I wasn't planning on having. So i'm not sure whether to be mad a WoTC for making a format un-enjoyable for me or thank them for the nice weekend me an my fiancee are about to have!
There are two kinds of Bridge (the card game) players.
People who enjoy playing Bridge, and people who don't know how to do anything else, other than play Bridge. There legitimately are people who have played Bridge for 30+ years, and physically don't know how to stop.
It does appear, that this same phenomena may be happening with Magic. The majority of players (in my experience) want interesting game play. this usually involves interaction, slower games (games doing to turn 8+), and games where the outcome is uncertain and hopefully even(ish).
However, there seems to be a growing number of people who play Magic, simply because they have been playing it for so long. Doing anything other than playing Magic, playing Magic to Win, even if unfun!, is the only thing that they physically can do.
Going back to bridge, there was a study done, that the majority of Bridge players over the age of 70 actively dislike playing Bridge. They are Not having a good time. But, they simply don't know what else to do.
The study concluded that Pavlovian conditioning had occured in these individuals, they had simply played Bridge so much, that even though they were not having fun anymore, they kept playing anyway.
I obviously do not mean to insult anyone, but anyone who says that they don't play Magic to have fun should reexamine their statement. Why are you playing Magic? What purpose does Magic actually serve in your life?
PS I apologize to anyone who enjoys the game of Bridge, I'm sure its fantastic :), I was just illustrating a proven point.
I don't think there are a group of players that specifically play the game but aren't having fun at all. I think the more likely reason for their behavior is that they are the type of players that like to win. They like putting the effort into testing decks and tweaking cards so that it gives them the best chance of winning. And maybe said deck is "broken" or "too good" and maybe other people would consider winning that way boring. They obviously don't think so. Me personally... I hate playing control decks. I still like to win but I'm not going to win playing control. Other people maybe don't have that filter.
So when they say "I don't play the game to have fun." what they really mean is that they don't have fun losing.
All I know is that legacy without mental misstep is not a format I enjoy.
Wow, you didn't stay in Legacy very long. Surprised new Legacy players liked MM so much, but then again when you've only played a format for a few months I do understand how nostalgic one can get over something that may have led them to the format in the first place. Well, enjoy whatever format you choose and I guess you may have to pick standard as that is the least likely place to find bans.
they did ban preordain and ponder in Modern, but did not serum visions.... hmm... combo decks will just use serum visions.. and sleight of hand (which is less powerful compared to preordain, serum visions and ponder)
Serious question: Are there any currently established archetypes, from Modern or from other formats, that can currently be played in Modern that can consistently (Control, Combo, Aggro, etc) kill on turn 3?
If the above is true, are there any cards (single if possible) in said deck that is an integral part of the deck that the lack of said card would cripple or slow down the deck enough to either not win by turn 3 or bring turn 3 wins to a minority case?
If the above answer is yes, expect said card to have a chance of being banned in the near future.
It's an easy process and one that's sure to avoid mass anger if applied. We already know WotC wants to avoid Turn 3 wins and applaud them for not only stating what they want clearly, but also keeping to their word of wanting Modern to be different.
If all Modern becomes is Legacy minus a few cards, why bother having Modern in the first place?
@cebuano_ako: I think Myr Battlesphere would be a better fit and more comical to your sig than My Superion, especially if you make an image in the sig that's a little comic of the 5 Myrs and then having them all get rolled over by the Sphere... just saying.
they did ban preordain and ponder in Modern, but did not serum visions.... hmm... combo decks will just use serum visions.. and sleight of hand (which is less powerful compared to preordain, serum visions and ponder)
And they're fine with that, they are weaker which makes them a lot more fair with regards to other decks being viable
"broken"/"too good" does not have to mean boring. Cawblade prebannings was too good, but there's a substantial amount of players that found that mirror match very fun and satisfying. They don't like it when a non-interactive combodeck turns out to be too good.
First of all... "boring" is relative to the player. I've never piloted a combo deck, I've never piloted a counterspell based control deck. I consider those decks boring to play. Obviously other's disagree with me. My idea of a fun deck is something like Zoo... or even on the control side something like Birthing Pod.
Second of all... I never said that broken means "boring" in the way that the majority of players consider something to be "boring". What I was saying was essentially the same thing as I just said above... something that many people consider boring, maybe those people that are playing said decks don't consider them to be boring. It's not like they think it's boring but they are playing them anyway because of some sadistic need to cause themselves pain.
You wanna bet which gets a new banning first, standard or vintage? =D[/QUOTE]
Whoever thinks that spikes don't care about the diversity of a format is certainly wrong, just because someone is playing to win and only to win doesn't mean they like playing caw mirrors 9 rounds in a row.
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Although always playing a deck I think is fun, I'm also always trying to win the tournament.
Currently playing: M13 Draft GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD) GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Quote from Jon Finkel »
Occasional Player? Hold on, because we're sending a Level 3 judge over to your house to kick you in the balls right now! -With Love, WOTC
What I was trying to say is that many players who like to win (Spikes) do care about how fun/boring a format and its decks are. They will play the deck that they think gives them the highest winning chance, even if they think it's boring. They don't have to have a different opinion on 'boring' to play a 'boring' deck.
I disagree. I mean... I suppose it could be true (and there is really no way to prove it either way), but I just don't see it.
I think in general... assuming you are given a choice, you generally choose an option you like to do. And maybe this is a semantic argument because you could introduce the hypothetical where a player is just so competitive and wants to win so badly that he'll play any deck. Even if it's a deck where every card costs 0 and says "you win the game". My counter to that hypothetical situation would be that it's his desire to win that is fullfilling him and making him want to keep playing the game, and therefore I would say he wasn't "bored" playing the deck. It sounds confusing, and I guess when it all comes down to semantics so I guess in a way we are both right here.
But I kind of go back to the general situation we were talking about... and I still think the Spike players that will play any deck as long as it wins just doesn't consider any competitive deck boring. I think in the extreme situation where the format becomes all 0 cost cards that say "I win"... I think all players would just quit the game because it's no longer a challenge.
But here's the catch. Winning is important. But winning is not fullfilling, the reason he's playing the game. Spike plays for the challenge, to prove he's better, to overcome his opponents. Those things are fullfilling, are in a good game, winning is the result, the outcome of that. Winning and fullfilling usually go hand in hand, but they're not cause and effect, they're both effects of another cause.
Ok, so we're on the same page. It sounds like this is a semantics argument because I would then take this and go back to my point about someone that really wants to win at any cost is basically just someone that is willing to play any deck and not be bored by it. And the reason they aren't bored because of it is because what makes them want to do what they do is the competitiveness of the game. If it were too easy, they WOULD get bored and go onto another game.
I remember reading an article on tcgplayer a year or so ago when Vala was at its prime in standard, there was a drop in the number of the Vala decks. The writer attributed it primarily to it being just a boring (and very powerful) deck.
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I do not like the banning of Ponder/Preordain in Modern, though, when the combo decks can be neutered in other ways. But OTOH, I hope this means Control becomes viable now, and the specter of 12 Post goes away to whatever Hell spawned such blasphemy - a deck so powerful hate was required, but the hate required forced decks to recognize its presence, even if it could never make headway past the hate, but if the hate was not present, it would run roughshod.
Eager to see the adjustments, but I was hoping for some unbannings, too.
Also, plain to see that Mental Misstep was yet another mistake WotC made and quickly swung the hammer on. Saw that coming when it was spoiled.
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
Anyway, I've seen some people complain that free counterspells are the solution to the current Modern... seriously, when are they going to understand that WotC is not going to allow any "strong" counterspells ("strong" = counters any spell without restrictions, gets rid of it permanently and doesn't give the opponent a way around it) to exist below 3CC (barring a few exceptions, such as Deprive) in Modern, Extended and Standard?
Countermagic is one of the most powerful disrupting effects in Magic (IMO, they are second only to effects that disrupt a player's mana base). WotC is fully aware of that, and has decided that 3 is the lowest acceptable cost for strong counters; that's why Counterspell hasn't seen reprint ever since 7th Edition, and that's why Force of Will isn't going to be reprinted, nor will they make anything similar to it.
Does it hurt control players? Yes, it does; having no reliable counters until T3 (T2 with a T1 mana accelerator) hurts them a lot. However, letting them have their way hurts everyone else; for every counterspell user who is sad about it, there is a considerable number of players who are happy because they can cast their spells without fearing a counter at every moment, even from a tapped out opponent.
Anyone who wants to counter stuff for free should stick to Legacy/Vintage and not complain; Modern won't have any of that.
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
But, but...Disrupting Shoal
I honestly don't see how Disrupting Shoal is relevant, considering the card you pitch has to match the CMC of the card you want to counter. I guess if Merfolk or Faeries could run it to some major effect, it'd warrant the $8 price-tag.
Bans are lulzy, too bad for everyone who didn't see them coming and decided to netdeck early.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
I was talking about the strong counters, and Disrupting Shoal fails at the "counters any spell without restrictions" requirement, as it's heavily restricted by the fact that one or more cards in your hand have to match the cost of the spell you want to counter.
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
Let's make this really simple.
Even a superficial examination of the Modern metagame before today will let one draw a few conclusions: that Cloudpost is a deck almost tailor-built to savage traditional control (even as it puts up mediocre results against the rest of the field), or that combo decks that can win on turn 2 can easily outrace the control tools available in the format.
These bans are going to alter both of those factors (by removing Cloudpost entirely and by slowing the "kill turn" of combo decks to turn 4.)
What effect do you think those changes will have on the viability of control in the format?
No, the majority of players care quite a bit about fun and diversity (which is in turn why WotC cares, and why you see tournament attendance drop like a rock when CawBlade is 70% of the field etc.)
I think what's more accurate here is that the majority of frequent tournament players are not actually interested in deckbuilding, they're interested in piloting proven decks.
People who enjoy playing Bridge, and people who don't know how to do anything else, other than play Bridge. There legitimately are people who have played Bridge for 30+ years, and physically don't know how to stop.
It does appear, that this same phenomena may be happening with Magic. The majority of players (in my experience) want interesting game play. this usually involves interaction, slower games (games doing to turn 8+), and games where the outcome is uncertain and hopefully even(ish).
However, there seems to be a growing number of people who play Magic, simply because they have been playing it for so long. Doing anything other than playing Magic, playing Magic to Win, even if unfun!, is the only thing that they physically can do.
Going back to bridge, there was a study done, that the majority of Bridge players over the age of 70 actively dislike playing Bridge. They are Not having a good time. But, they simply don't know what else to do.
The study concluded that Pavlovian conditioning had occured in these individuals, they had simply played Bridge so much, that even though they were not having fun anymore, they kept playing anyway.
I obviously do not mean to insult anyone, but anyone who says that they don't play Magic to have fun should reexamine their statement. Why are you playing Magic? What purpose does Magic actually serve in your life?
PS I apologize to anyone who enjoys the game of Bridge, I'm sure its fantastic :), I was just illustrating a proven point.
Now, after dumping my legacy deck I have an extra 2k I wasn't planning on having. So i'm not sure whether to be mad a WoTC for making a format un-enjoyable for me or thank them for the nice weekend me an my fiancee are about to have!
Best post in 36 pages
I don't think there are a group of players that specifically play the game but aren't having fun at all. I think the more likely reason for their behavior is that they are the type of players that like to win. They like putting the effort into testing decks and tweaking cards so that it gives them the best chance of winning. And maybe said deck is "broken" or "too good" and maybe other people would consider winning that way boring. They obviously don't think so. Me personally... I hate playing control decks. I still like to win but I'm not going to win playing control. Other people maybe don't have that filter.
So when they say "I don't play the game to have fun." what they really mean is that they don't have fun losing.
Wow, you didn't stay in Legacy very long. Surprised new Legacy players liked MM so much, but then again when you've only played a format for a few months I do understand how nostalgic one can get over something that may have led them to the format in the first place. Well, enjoy whatever format you choose and I guess you may have to pick standard as that is the least likely place to find bans.
That's an easy one: Standard. Cards are usually just restricted in Vintage.
EDIT: Never mind that, I failed to notice the joke in that quote.
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
"BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED I AM MYR SUPERION"
If the above is true, are there any cards (single if possible) in said deck that is an integral part of the deck that the lack of said card would cripple or slow down the deck enough to either not win by turn 3 or bring turn 3 wins to a minority case?
If the above answer is yes, expect said card to have a chance of being banned in the near future.
It's an easy process and one that's sure to avoid mass anger if applied. We already know WotC wants to avoid Turn 3 wins and applaud them for not only stating what they want clearly, but also keeping to their word of wanting Modern to be different.
If all Modern becomes is Legacy minus a few cards, why bother having Modern in the first place?
@cebuano_ako: I think Myr Battlesphere would be a better fit and more comical to your sig than My Superion, especially if you make an image in the sig that's a little comic of the 5 Myrs and then having them all get rolled over by the Sphere... just saying.
And they're fine with that, they are weaker which makes them a lot more fair with regards to other decks being viable
First of all... "boring" is relative to the player. I've never piloted a combo deck, I've never piloted a counterspell based control deck. I consider those decks boring to play. Obviously other's disagree with me. My idea of a fun deck is something like Zoo... or even on the control side something like Birthing Pod.
Second of all... I never said that broken means "boring" in the way that the majority of players consider something to be "boring". What I was saying was essentially the same thing as I just said above... something that many people consider boring, maybe those people that are playing said decks don't consider them to be boring. It's not like they think it's boring but they are playing them anyway because of some sadistic need to cause themselves pain.
You wanna bet which gets a new banning first, standard or vintage? =D[/QUOTE]
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
I disagree. I mean... I suppose it could be true (and there is really no way to prove it either way), but I just don't see it.
I think in general... assuming you are given a choice, you generally choose an option you like to do. And maybe this is a semantic argument because you could introduce the hypothetical where a player is just so competitive and wants to win so badly that he'll play any deck. Even if it's a deck where every card costs 0 and says "you win the game". My counter to that hypothetical situation would be that it's his desire to win that is fullfilling him and making him want to keep playing the game, and therefore I would say he wasn't "bored" playing the deck. It sounds confusing, and I guess when it all comes down to semantics so I guess in a way we are both right here.
But I kind of go back to the general situation we were talking about... and I still think the Spike players that will play any deck as long as it wins just doesn't consider any competitive deck boring. I think in the extreme situation where the format becomes all 0 cost cards that say "I win"... I think all players would just quit the game because it's no longer a challenge.
Ok, so we're on the same page. It sounds like this is a semantics argument because I would then take this and go back to my point about someone that really wants to win at any cost is basically just someone that is willing to play any deck and not be bored by it. And the reason they aren't bored because of it is because what makes them want to do what they do is the competitiveness of the game. If it were too easy, they WOULD get bored and go onto another game.