hate drafting can result badly, but only if done excessively. I've decided to hate late picks I know I don't want another deck getting, if none of the picks are usable in any way to me. I can see this kind of thing happening even more now. In my draft group I'll try and make sure this rule isn't used.
if one person complains your store loses it's sanctioning.
You should really understand how drafting and giving signals works before acting like this is going to ruin limited. Inexperienced players vastly overvalue keeping their draft a secret. Obviously if you're drafting with other bad players, which it sounds like you are, they'll hate draft anyways, thinking their doing the "smart" thing when they're actually only ruining their own draft by taking a card they won't play over a card they would. No one who knows what they're doing is going to hate draft a grizzly bear equivalent werewolf (aka the cards you want) simply because they saw u taking a double-sided card. If they hate draft like that you should beat them anyways, so it's not a problem.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
Such a lack of real understanding of how draft actually works, it's not even funny.
Being able to send such strong signals first pick will benefit almost everyone, it's not a disadvantage at all. It's not standard where people have a sideboard full of hate cards specifically targeting whatever your bomb/strategy/colors are.
Signals only matter when you draft with other people that think about them, which doesn't happen that often when you're just drafting at your local gaming store.
I agree with you that this is a good point for PTQ T8s and up though. Although, I'm inclined to believe that people knowing that you have a particular card in your deck is a bigger disadvantage than you're trying to act like.
While I dislike the design of two-faced cards, I'm glad they made this change. Needing to hide picks, especially first picks, was a messy and unnecessary bit of complication to an already messy mechanic.
Edit: I've revised my thoughts; I think this new rule has serious problems.
While I can respect that the change might be a significant improvement based on feedback from knowledgeable individuals, this change suggests that there was at least one consequence of DFCs that they didn't fully consider. I and many other people on these forums have guessed there could be game play issues with DFCs that wizards didn't anticipate, and to some extent this seems to validate that. I give wizards credit for figuring this out now before any drafts have actually taken place, while at the same time waiting for more issues to crop up.
Yeah, they cannot foresee all individual consequences, especially when they are going into new territory like this. Like you said, at least they caught it before the set went live.
Stack your packs, then when u pick the dbl face card quickly throw another one on top of it. Honestly though I make my drafts so easily to be hated on though. Either pick up all the good red stuff or you lose :D!
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Lathia: Spam again. I swear its contagious.
iRebel: The person who develops the SPAM vaccine will be a billionaire, I swear it..
Spammer: Deck = BAD
iRebel: SPAM = BAD
EDH UThada Adel AcquisitorU GB Savara, Queen of the Golgori BG GR Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG
if one person complains your store loses it's sanctioning.
You should really understand how drafting and giving signals works before acting like this is going to ruin limited. Inexperienced players vastly overvalue keeping their draft a secret. Obviously if you're drafting with other bad players, which it sounds like you are, they'll hate draft anyways, thinking their doing the "smart" thing when they're actually only ruining their own draft by taking a card they won't play over a card they would. No one who knows what they're doing is going to hate draft a grizzly bear equivalent werewolf (aka the cards you want) simply because they saw u taking a double-sided card. If they hate draft like that you should beat them anyways, so it's not a problem.
I don't own a store, regardless the drafts I go to are unsanctioned, so we do as we please.
Yeah, I know that if whoever is next to me knows I'm one color, they probably won't go for that color because then we'll compete over it.
also, the hate drafting I referred to was situational. I only hate draft when nothing else is of value to me, but one card is highly prized by other decks.
I'm still not a fan of the DFCs (some of the individual designs are cool, but on the whole I'm not impressed and don't think they look like they will be worth all the negatives). But this is so, so much better.
As it was, some people would be giving away information and some wouldn't. Some people would try to hide information and fail. Some information would be passed to the keen-eyed players who were carefully watching the table and happened to be sitting at the right angle.
Basically, the way they had it originally was just setting up a huge mess that was going to lead to people playing "hide the card" and "crane your neck around trying to see who's drafting what" instead of just picking your damn card.
This just gets it over with and evens the playing field. Everyone reveals their DFCs, everyone gets to see them, and no one will be playing any stupid manual dexterity minigames.
Double faced cards are sweet you guys, it is only for one block and the radical change will shake things up. I think they are also super cool and have already decided to make a casual t2 werewolves deck in hopes it will be tir1 before this block rotates, it is impossible to predict what the meta will look like then.
Everyone has the same advantage/disadvantage with these, just learn to deal with these new cards better than everyone else and you will be fine.
I liked it better when you could hide the cards because I have disproportionatlly large and dexterous hands, but this makes sense and I would be really happy about this if I was handicapped and couldn't hide the cards at all.
For real though, you all seem like you would ***** about anything. Worst case we need to throw down on some non-transparent sleeves, and we all know that eventually it is a fact we are going to need to buy more sleeves sometime anyway. Personally, I have like 3 sets of sleeves that you can't see through, I'll just need to re-sleeve one or two decks worst case.
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We are all just the universe becoming aware of itself; there is only one self.
Look on the bright side- there are lots of other limited formats! Why not try an Anaconda draft (freely swap out cards you've already picked with cards in the pack each pick, then take an additional one and pass the rest)? How about a modified Winchester draft with eight players and six piles (open all the packs and shuffle all the cards together without looking at them, then put five face-up and one face-down. In turn, each player takes a pile then adds a card to each pile.)?
While I can respect that the change might be a significant improvement based on feedback from knowledgeable individuals, this change suggests that there was at least one consequence of DFCs that they didn't fully consider. I and many other people on these forums have guessed there could be game play issues with DFCs that wizards didn't anticipate, and to some extent this seems to validate that. I give wizards credit for figuring this out now before any drafts have actually taken place, while at the same time waiting for more issues to crop up.
Did they really never draft INS in playtesting?? No one ever said, "Hey, I know what card you just drafted- that might be a problem"?
Double faced cards are sweet you guys, it is only for one block and the radical change will shake things up. I think they are also super cool and have already decided to make a casual t2 werewolves deck in hopes it will be tir1 before this block rotates, it is impossible to predict what the meta will look like then.
I'm going to say this as politely as possible... you have got to be insane.
if one person complains your store loses it's sanctioning.
Uh, not at all. At regular REL, there's no penalty for rearranging or hiding your picks. Until the rules change to make DFC draft picks Derived Information, there's nothing wrong with hiding them at events lower than Competitive.
The flip cards are inserted in packs in a similar fashion to normal rarity. So maybe, 1 in 3 is uncommon, 1 in 5 is rare, and 1 in....? is mythic.
White has a common and uncommon DFC
Blue has a common, uncommon, and rare DFC.
Black has an uncommon and rare DFC.
Red has 2 common, 2 uncommon, and 2 rare DFC.
Green has 2 common, 2 uncommon, 2 rare, and 1 mythic DFC.
Most packs will have a red or green DFC in them, just on sheer odds.
Everyone at the table cannot draft red and/or green.
The fact that everyone is signaling to everyone else will have little measurable effect.
Signaling is a part of limited that is often over exaggerated and misunderstood.
I wish they hadn't changed the rules like this, because now I need a new sig. Also, it gives people another excuse to complain. :/
This with emphasis mine. I was already typing a long tirade when I realized you had said everything I had to say.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
I don't own a store, regardless the drafts I go to are unsanctioned, so we do as we please.
Yeah, I know that if whoever is next to me knows I'm one color, they probably won't go for that color because then we'll compete over it.
also, the hate drafting I referred to was situational. I only hate draft when nothing else is of value to me, but one card is highly prized by other decks.
rly just meant the store u play at, ah then it doesnt matter.
thats what I mean just because u flash a certain card its highly unlikely that anyone would start taking cards of the same color with the intention they wouldnt use it over a card theyd rather use themselves.
People are making way too big of a deal about something that doesnt even change much.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
Uh, not at all. At regular REL, there's no penalty for rearranging or hiding your picks. Until the rules change to make DFC draft picks Derived Information, there's nothing wrong with hiding them at events lower than Competitive.
Except, you know, that they just changed the rule so that it is explicitly illegal to hide the DFCs?
Did they really never draft INS in playtesting?? No one ever said, "Hey, I know what card you just drafted- that might be a problem"?
That's not really the problem, though. I mean, it's a change with positives and negatives: mostly, better signaling at the expense of giving foreknowledge of some of your cards. But good players will adapt to maximize the positives and minimize the negatives; in that regard, it's just another element being added to Draft strategy.
The bigger problem was this whole "hide the card" nonsense, where some people were going to waste time trying to hide their picks, other people would respond by trying to catch peeks of "hidden" cards, and information would be shared unequally around the table, based on seat placement and propensity to fool around with this business. My guess is that in testing, everyone was sensible enough to just reveal their DFCs and they never got a sense for how tiresome these card-hiding games were going to be. I'm glad they listened.
My guess is that in testing, everyone was sensible enough to just reveal their DFCs and they never got a sense for how tiresome these card-hiding games were going to be. I'm glad they listened.
I think what happened is that they were using playtest cards without art, colored borders, etc. If you try somewhat clumsily to hide the fact that you have have a plain white DF playtest card with plain black text, maybe your podmates can see THAT you picked a DFC, but they basically have no chance to tell which one it is or even what color it is. If you try somewhat clumsily to hide a brightly-colored Garruk with identifiable art, anyone taking a casual glance can instantly see it.
This is stupid. Just stupid. When drafting, you are supposed to look at the cards you choose, not look around. At higher RELs, looking at the hand of the player sitting next to you nets you a DQ, so I already feel pity for the judges who has to decide if a player looks at "the top card of a pile" or is just cheating. I hate all this ideas related to double-faced cards (in draft). And it looks like every next one is worse than previous.
I love drafting. And I'll have to avoid drafting all block because of this stupidity? That sucks.
Coming from someone who also loves drafting and hates DFCs, you're really overreacting here. DFCs look set to be a mess in draft (the main reason I don't like them), but this change just made the situation significantly better, not worse.
This really is a non issue. You can use this in a number of ways. All this will do is...
A. Have people attempt to cut you off a card type/color because of info
B. People know what youre drafting by what theyre showing you so they might avoid it in order to not shortchange themselves.
On the flipside you can take a double faced card and never intend to draft a deck towards it so everyone trying to outdraft you might be messing themselves up. You will never know someones intentions for picking a double sided card so what is the issue here? It can go both ways.
I think it is pretty telling that they have changed the draft rules already. It's almost as if they didn't think things through enough before they put double face cards in the set.
Coming from someone who also loves drafting and hates DFCs, you're really overreacting here. DFCs look set to be a mess in draft (the main reason I don't like them), but this change just made the situation significantly better, not worse.
I'd just appreciate an apology from Wizards, some kind of admission that DFCs were a terrible idea.
They weren't a terrible idea. They were a perfectly fine idea and 12 months from now you're going to wonder why you thought there was anything seriously wrong with them.
I'd just appreciate an apology from Wizards, some kind of admission that DFCs were a terrible idea.
I'll admit that there's a vindictive little part of me that wants DFCs to turn out to be a massive failure, popularity-wise, once they're released to the wild, just so that Maro has to say "Sorry guys, I really ****ed up" in next year's "State of Design."
But, meh, at this point I think they've patched over enough of the holes in their implementation that I'll be able to enjoy drafting a set that looks pretty great aside from the DFCs, despite their inclusion. So I'm pretty much over it.
if one person complains your store loses it's sanctioning.
You should really understand how drafting and giving signals works before acting like this is going to ruin limited. Inexperienced players vastly overvalue keeping their draft a secret. Obviously if you're drafting with other bad players, which it sounds like you are, they'll hate draft anyways, thinking their doing the "smart" thing when they're actually only ruining their own draft by taking a card they won't play over a card they would. No one who knows what they're doing is going to hate draft a grizzly bear equivalent werewolf (aka the cards you want) simply because they saw u taking a double-sided card. If they hate draft like that you should beat them anyways, so it's not a problem.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
Signals only matter when you draft with other people that think about them, which doesn't happen that often when you're just drafting at your local gaming store.
I agree with you that this is a good point for PTQ T8s and up though. Although, I'm inclined to believe that people knowing that you have a particular card in your deck is a bigger disadvantage than you're trying to act like.
While I dislike the design of two-faced cards, I'm glad they made this change. Needing to hide picks, especially first picks, was a messy and unnecessary bit of complication to an already messy mechanic.Edit: I've revised my thoughts; I think this new rule has serious problems.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7313298&postcount=91
It's more like "hey guyz, I opened garruk and might force green, stay out of it it's better for both of us!"
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Yeah, they cannot foresee all individual consequences, especially when they are going into new territory like this. Like you said, at least they caught it before the set went live.
Since when does first picking a bomby card mean you have to stay in that colour?
So now everyone is fighting over green to screw you over. Oh wait, look at this awesome R/B deck I made with this green bomb!
UThada Adel AcquisitorU
GB Savara, Queen of the Golgori BG
GR Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG
I don't own a store, regardless the drafts I go to are unsanctioned, so we do as we please.
Yeah, I know that if whoever is next to me knows I'm one color, they probably won't go for that color because then we'll compete over it.
also, the hate drafting I referred to was situational. I only hate draft when nothing else is of value to me, but one card is highly prized by other decks.
I'm still not a fan of the DFCs (some of the individual designs are cool, but on the whole I'm not impressed and don't think they look like they will be worth all the negatives). But this is so, so much better.
As it was, some people would be giving away information and some wouldn't. Some people would try to hide information and fail. Some information would be passed to the keen-eyed players who were carefully watching the table and happened to be sitting at the right angle.
Basically, the way they had it originally was just setting up a huge mess that was going to lead to people playing "hide the card" and "crane your neck around trying to see who's drafting what" instead of just picking your damn card.
This just gets it over with and evens the playing field. Everyone reveals their DFCs, everyone gets to see them, and no one will be playing any stupid manual dexterity minigames.
Everyone has the same advantage/disadvantage with these, just learn to deal with these new cards better than everyone else and you will be fine.
I liked it better when you could hide the cards because I have disproportionatlly large and dexterous hands, but this makes sense and I would be really happy about this if I was handicapped and couldn't hide the cards at all.
For real though, you all seem like you would ***** about anything. Worst case we need to throw down on some non-transparent sleeves, and we all know that eventually it is a fact we are going to need to buy more sleeves sometime anyway. Personally, I have like 3 sets of sleeves that you can't see through, I'll just need to re-sleeve one or two decks worst case.
Did they really never draft INS in playtesting?? No one ever said, "Hey, I know what card you just drafted- that might be a problem"?
I'm going to say this as politely as possible... you have got to be insane.
Uh, not at all. At regular REL, there's no penalty for rearranging or hiding your picks. Until the rules change to make DFC draft picks Derived Information, there's nothing wrong with hiding them at events lower than Competitive.
This with emphasis mine. I was already typing a long tirade when I realized you had said everything I had to say.
rly just meant the store u play at, ah then it doesnt matter.
thats what I mean just because u flash a certain card its highly unlikely that anyone would start taking cards of the same color with the intention they wouldnt use it over a card theyd rather use themselves.
People are making way too big of a deal about something that doesnt even change much.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
That's not really the problem, though. I mean, it's a change with positives and negatives: mostly, better signaling at the expense of giving foreknowledge of some of your cards. But good players will adapt to maximize the positives and minimize the negatives; in that regard, it's just another element being added to Draft strategy.
The bigger problem was this whole "hide the card" nonsense, where some people were going to waste time trying to hide their picks, other people would respond by trying to catch peeks of "hidden" cards, and information would be shared unequally around the table, based on seat placement and propensity to fool around with this business. My guess is that in testing, everyone was sensible enough to just reveal their DFCs and they never got a sense for how tiresome these card-hiding games were going to be. I'm glad they listened.
Also I think a big part of dexterity issues was people with physical handicaps.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
Coming from someone who also loves drafting and hates DFCs, you're really overreacting here. DFCs look set to be a mess in draft (the main reason I don't like them), but this change just made the situation significantly better, not worse.
A. Have people attempt to cut you off a card type/color because of info
B. People know what youre drafting by what theyre showing you so they might avoid it in order to not shortchange themselves.
On the flipside you can take a double faced card and never intend to draft a deck towards it so everyone trying to outdraft you might be messing themselves up. You will never know someones intentions for picking a double sided card so what is the issue here? It can go both ways.
I'd just appreciate an apology from Wizards, some kind of admission that DFCs were a terrible idea.
Wizards owes you nothing.
I'll admit that there's a vindictive little part of me that wants DFCs to turn out to be a massive failure, popularity-wise, once they're released to the wild, just so that Maro has to say "Sorry guys, I really ****ed up" in next year's "State of Design."
But, meh, at this point I think they've patched over enough of the holes in their implementation that I'll be able to enjoy drafting a set that looks pretty great aside from the DFCs, despite their inclusion. So I'm pretty much over it.