Probably the best question I've heard since last night, for all those whiners, how were they supposed to do it? Make me Mayor of Avabruck/Howlpack Alpha on a flip card or any other idea you have, obviously with reasonable font. I bet it wont work.
so instead of additional material in form of genereic checklists you want additional material in form of specific tokenlike cards?
sounds counterintuitive
Yes. The only time the card is new to a player is when the card is cracked open in a pack. If the extra token card representing the transformed state is in the pack, the full rules text of the card is distributed in limited environments. At any other time, players are playing in a constructed environment, so players can remember what the card does or look it up, as is the case for textless cards.
Well, the problem there (apart from font size, smaller art and the like) is that it is just as confusing to a new player, heck I don't even know how fire/ice works fully, can you only cast one or both (assuming mana costs are payed). not to mention how would you know which side was active? seems just a clunky and bad as the solution wizards had....
I'll admit it - I and a lot of other people were wrong, the people calling for double-sided cards were right. We didn't think that WotC would be THIS stupid.
Last night at the store I started looking at people's sleeves as they were playing. I quickly found three that were clear enough (2 of them were Ultra-Pro products) that you could see things ranging from the white and red mana dots to reading the Magic logo and seeing the general design on the back of the card.
WotC has just put a huge burden on tournament organizers / judges, and the more players they have the more sleeves will need to be checked, and that means the bigger tournaments will have bigger headaches. Stupid move, WotC.
As a player, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As a judge, well, let's just say I directed a lot of obscenities at WotC last night when I got the news.
no offense but the reason people were playing with non opaque is because there was never any reason to care before.
Do you not think people will just buy opaque sleeves from here on out?
The honest players? Probably. But they're not the ones I worry about. I worry about the players that just found a new way to cheat. On a local level it's not that bad when you're running a 10-15 person tournament... unless the judge is also the only guy that works at the store and is running the counter, helping customers, etc. and now has to check sleeves as well.
As the tournaments get bigger, the headache grows as well. For example, this weekend's Grand Prix. Over 1,000 players. As the number of potentially cheating players goes up, the number of judges per players goes down, and makes it that much easier to slip something by. With sleeves it's even worse. Someone could cheat their way through 4 or 5 rounds and then change sleeves before they're moved to rounds of higher scrutiny, citing that a sleeve broke.
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L1 MtG judge (L2 coming soon) and Dominion tournament coordinator serving Flint MI and its surrounding cities.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Non opaque sleeves are super easy to spot, and there are going to be plenty of proxy cards. The sleeves are supposed to be checked already for markings, this won't even add any time to check for it.
It's a lame mechanic that doesn't net you anthing. It was clearly done just so MaRo could change the cardback, something he's had a hard on for doing for YEARS, he said so himself.
The man will not be satisified until he has completely eradicated everything that links MTG to it's past. I am convinced he will be the death of the game.
And you see nothing wrong with playing legitimate decks with sharpied basic land cards representing other cards?
You said the problem was that you couldn't build a deck just from an arbitrary stack of cards. And since I'm not too familiar with any OFFICIAL formats that involve people picking up arbitrary stacks of cards (without access to the "Extra material" you spoke of), one had to infer you were talking about CASUAL play, not "legitimate" play.
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Quote from Nirvava »
you can generally tell the easiest road to victory by how many players congregate on it; and the road of counterspells/control has been the freeway of choice in magic for quite some time.
Quote from photodyer »
What I find offensive is not that Wizards is endeavoring to make the game more accessible, but the attitudes of elitists who act as though no one of any age should show their face in the Magic public without first having mastery over the complexities of the game.
No, this only happens if certain conditions are met. Read the cards. They don't automatically revert. Werewolves stay werewolves until someone plays two spells in a turn, humans stay human unless no spells are played in a turn. And if the spells you're playing are other werewolf flip cards, there'll always be an imbalance of some kind. It's just incredibly messy.
It's not since all the Werewolf cards have the same condition. So the first upkeep after the new Human/Werefwolf entered the battlefield it will be synchronised with the others. It works, try it.
Well, the problem there (apart from font size, smaller art and the like) is that it is just as confusing to a new player, heck I don't even know how fire/ice works fully, can you only cast one or both (assuming mana costs are payed). not to mention how would you know which side was active? seems just a clunky and bad as the solution wizards had....
You can only cast one, and I would assume that plating the cards in exactly the same fashion (with only a single mana cost, the same rules text etc.) would be easy enough, use a bead to know which side is active.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
i'm officially loving this idea - it's taking MTG in a new and (in my mind) interesting direction.
the official proxy checklist is possibly the best single solution (to the sleeve/cardback issue) they could have come up with - it has a touch of genius to it.... no de-sleeving or giving of information whatsoever. love it.
yep. i'm more excited about this set than any other, ever.... and i've been playing since alpha.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
It's not since all the Werewolf cards have the same condition. So the first upkeep after the new Human/Werefwolf entered the battlefield it will be synchronised with the others. It works, try it.
The only fact that annoys me about double sided cards is the following. I am a collector, I like to have each single card in every set. I store my collection in albums with 9 transparent pockets, and I put two cards in each pocket, the backs of both together (I hope I'm explaining myself).
With two sided cards, if I do this, one side would be invisible. I think I will have to actually have two of each of this double cards and store them a next to b.
or one that then has both sides visible, one from each page
um... is this for real? I mean... I don't even...
what? -_-...
flip cards?..flip em up and ****? so... I have to buy both forms?..and keep track of all this day and night ****. for each card? I picture games with these cards and can't help but feel like everything about about the new mechanics is just one hassle after another...
... No, read the cards. If you control a werewolf, and play a human, and pass the turn, neither the werewolf nor the human will flip.
Seriously, read the cards.
This is correct, but as soon as the human flips over for the first time, he is locked in with the others. At best it's a temporary discrepancy and I doubt it's going to "pull anyone out of the moment".
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Quote from Nirvava »
you can generally tell the easiest road to victory by how many players congregate on it; and the road of counterspells/control has been the freeway of choice in magic for quite some time.
Quote from photodyer »
What I find offensive is not that Wizards is endeavoring to make the game more accessible, but the attitudes of elitists who act as though no one of any age should show their face in the Magic public without first having mastery over the complexities of the game.
Wow, this is some messed up censor evasion removed, warning issued. Looks like I won´t quit Legacy any time soon, and it looks like I´m not gonna start with Standard or Modern any time soon.
I was a little upset by the seeming clunkiness of the mechanic, and the fact that personally, I HATE the idea of unsleeving/resleeving my cards midgame.
For me, I've decided that the solution is just to buy some clear Dragonshields to encase the actual double-sided cards, and play with the checklist cards in my actual deck. No more difficult than playing with a token.
3. While technically you do have to keep track of it for each single card, as all of them have the same requirements, if one transforms the other will too.
Wrong. Only the werewolves share a common trigger.
Wrong. Only the werewolves share a common trigger.
While that is true, it is suggested that the other transformation cards won't be flipping back and forth every other turn. The one other revealed transformation card only flips once, and won't flip back at all.
Can we stop calling these cards flip cards, they are officially "Double-Faced Cards" (DFC). Flip cards are the Kamigawa cards. Using the terms interchangeably is confusing for discussion purposes (and also incorrect). Not trying to be an ass, just trying to clear things up.
and the fact that personally, I HATE the idea of unsleeving/resleeving my cards midgame.
dude, seriously.
*facepalm*
use the CHECKLIST PROXY in your deck.... it has a normal back and stays in its sleeve.
Then, when you cast the spell, plonk down your double-faced card (probably unsleeved or clear-sleeved).... no de-sleeving or messing about required.
why don't people read?
the mechanic has clearly been worked out and tested - it's not a mess, and by using the checklist proxies, you keep it clean and without the need to mess around with sleeves.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
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Too much text
My Helpdesk: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7776298#post7776298
My friend's awesome mtg dice: http://www.etsy.com/listing/120956030/magic-the-gathering-mini-d6-dice-set
Kamigawa flip cards that could unflip maybe.
Yes. The only time the card is new to a player is when the card is cracked open in a pack. If the extra token card representing the transformed state is in the pack, the full rules text of the card is distributed in limited environments. At any other time, players are playing in a constructed environment, so players can remember what the card does or look it up, as is the case for textless cards.
And you see nothing wrong with playing legitimate decks with sharpied basic land cards representing other cards?
Is
A
Bad
Idea
How are you intended to use these with sleeves?
"Okay, hold on whilst I activate the trigger" "Oh crap, my sleeve ripped"
it's basically just a rehash of kami
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Well, the problem there (apart from font size, smaller art and the like) is that it is just as confusing to a new player, heck I don't even know how fire/ice works fully, can you only cast one or both (assuming mana costs are payed). not to mention how would you know which side was active? seems just a clunky and bad as the solution wizards had....
I'll admit it - I and a lot of other people were wrong, the people calling for double-sided cards were right. We didn't think that WotC would be THIS stupid.
Last night at the store I started looking at people's sleeves as they were playing. I quickly found three that were clear enough (2 of them were Ultra-Pro products) that you could see things ranging from the white and red mana dots to reading the Magic logo and seeing the general design on the back of the card.
WotC has just put a huge burden on tournament organizers / judges, and the more players they have the more sleeves will need to be checked, and that means the bigger tournaments will have bigger headaches. Stupid move, WotC.
As a player, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As a judge, well, let's just say I directed a lot of obscenities at WotC last night when I got the news.
Also, from the other thread:
The honest players? Probably. But they're not the ones I worry about. I worry about the players that just found a new way to cheat. On a local level it's not that bad when you're running a 10-15 person tournament... unless the judge is also the only guy that works at the store and is running the counter, helping customers, etc. and now has to check sleeves as well.
As the tournaments get bigger, the headache grows as well. For example, this weekend's Grand Prix. Over 1,000 players. As the number of potentially cheating players goes up, the number of judges per players goes down, and makes it that much easier to slip something by. With sleeves it's even worse. Someone could cheat their way through 4 or 5 rounds and then change sleeves before they're moved to rounds of higher scrutiny, citing that a sleeve broke.
Less room for art/text than split cards.
My Helpdesk: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7776298#post7776298
My friend's awesome mtg dice: http://www.etsy.com/listing/120956030/magic-the-gathering-mini-d6-dice-set
The man will not be satisified until he has completely eradicated everything that links MTG to it's past. I am convinced he will be the death of the game.
You said the problem was that you couldn't build a deck just from an arbitrary stack of cards. And since I'm not too familiar with any OFFICIAL formats that involve people picking up arbitrary stacks of cards (without access to the "Extra material" you spoke of), one had to infer you were talking about CASUAL play, not "legitimate" play.
It's not since all the Werewolf cards have the same condition. So the first upkeep after the new Human/Werefwolf entered the battlefield it will be synchronised with the others. It works, try it.
You can only cast one, and I would assume that plating the cards in exactly the same fashion (with only a single mana cost, the same rules text etc.) would be easy enough, use a bead to know which side is active.
the official proxy checklist is possibly the best single solution (to the sleeve/cardback issue) they could have come up with - it has a touch of genius to it.... no de-sleeving or giving of information whatsoever. love it.
yep. i'm more excited about this set than any other, ever.... and i've been playing since alpha.
But they don't if 1 spell is cast every turn.
or one that then has both sides visible, one from each page
what? -_-...
flip cards?..flip em up and ****? so... I have to buy both forms?..and keep track of all this day and night ****. for each card? I picture games with these cards and can't help but feel like everything about about the new mechanics is just one hassle after another...
This is correct, but as soon as the human flips over for the first time, he is locked in with the others. At best it's a temporary discrepancy and I doubt it's going to "pull anyone out of the moment".
Coming up: 6th color.
For me, I've decided that the solution is just to buy some clear Dragonshields to encase the actual double-sided cards, and play with the checklist cards in my actual deck. No more difficult than playing with a token.
Wrong. Only the werewolves share a common trigger.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Anything that gives me a reason to pull out my illusionary mask must be good.
Gwendlyn Di Corci
The Mimeoplasm
Rhys the Exiled
Type 1/Vintage
Dark Times
Gush Storm(dismantled)
While that is true, it is suggested that the other transformation cards won't be flipping back and forth every other turn. The one other revealed transformation card only flips once, and won't flip back at all.
...maybe I'm missing something...
Sig by Rivenor
Decks (All Budget)
Modern
WSoul SistersW
RGShamansRG
dude, seriously.
*facepalm*
use the CHECKLIST PROXY in your deck.... it has a normal back and stays in its sleeve.
Then, when you cast the spell, plonk down your double-faced card (probably unsleeved or clear-sleeved).... no de-sleeving or messing about required.
why don't people read?
the mechanic has clearly been worked out and tested - it's not a mess, and by using the checklist proxies, you keep it clean and without the need to mess around with sleeves.