he will go down in less then a week for sure. since on how people seem to react and when he do's i will get him and win aginst alot of people with my G/U mill deck. u all must have forgotten tramutize. i use it alot in my mill deck. i hit you with it turn 3 or 4 then i play jace then finish milling. turn 5 u lose. because you have no cards to play or no lands to use. the only thing u can't beat is some one who has a card that allows you to gain 5 life and shuffle your graveyard back into your deck. i forgot the name of the card because no one use's it. if i can't mill u my big monster's will just eat u up. LOL:D
thats why i think for some one like me jace is a god send. for others not so much. just because you say people won't buy it or use it you are sadly mistaken. it will see play and will be some what effective. thsi jace was made for mill deck users and i am sure there are some out there. like me. but befor you say it is a bad card wait till the rest of the cards come out. who knows what other goodies will come out next.:D
I just think 5 CC is too high. If I open one at the Pre and can sell it for $35 I will. See Venser for example of an excellent PW that isn't worth $30-40 either.
I think he's kind of like Chandra Ablaze. Great Johnny card.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
The problem being that he costs 5 (bad for a planeswalker, admit it), must be protected to get your mana's worth (which he can't do himself, which is bad), and then if you can protect him he takes 3-4 turns to give you a return on your investment (Tidings is probably just better. Jace's Ingenuity too).
If, after drawing a bunch of extra cards and managing to protect a helpless 5cmc planeswalker for a few turns, an extra 20 cards is going to change the game in any way, I don't know what you're doing. Are you playing Psychatog and cast Jace, Memory Adept with Force of Will backup?
And if you're not using the mill or the ultimate, isn't he just a really bad Phyrexian Arena?
The problem being that he costs 5 (bad for a planeswalker, admit it), must be protected to get your mana's worth (which he can't do himself, which is bad), and then if you can protect him he takes 3-4 turns to give you a return on your investment (Tidings is probably just better. Jace's Ingenuity too).
If, after drawing a bunch of extra cards and managing to protect a helpless 5cmc planeswalker for a few turns, an extra 20 cards is going to change the game in any way, I don't know what you're doing. Are you playing Psychatog and cast Jace, Memory Adept with Force of Will backup?
And if you're not using the mill or the ultimate, isn't he just a really bad Phyrexian Arena?
Tell that to Sorin and various other 6 CMC BOMBS!!! Jeez.. for a PW, it's fine. The card advantage is there for +1 and the Mill option is great for an unchanged loyalty...
Again, you fail to realize how vicious this card can get. Though I'm guessing this won't be more than $15-$20. But, we said that about Tezzy 2.0 and look what happened there...
Wait and see, people... He's cool in my eyes, but to you competitive type, stick to Sorin or Gid. Jeez.
The more I think about this guy the worse he seems. He's a draw engine, but 5 mana is a huge investment for an incremental advantage and for 1 extra mana you get consecrated sphinx or a titan. Milling might be relevant given the next block, but honestly you could stick him into odyssey block during the heyday of graveyard shenanigans and I still don't see him being very relevant. He's a niche card for the control mirror at best.
I plan on using new jace as a finisher in a ub control deck. Why? Hear is why:
Vs more traditional control. The mill out races baneslayer and grave titan. Not that they will live very long, so I don't exactly need to race them. Also immune to all current instant speed spot removal.
Vs aggro. BSZ is where it is at. By turn five I can reliably draw it every other turn.
Vs combo. Duress, despise, distress, or whatever innistrad brings. Which ones depends on combo decks combo pieces obviously.
Vs graveyard shenanigans. Please read my signature. Will update come innistrad. may sub jace out of this match up depending on how popular the spoiled pharaoh is. Creature finishers wouldn't be good there.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
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As long as there's an Ulamog there to trollface you, this guy will be drawing cards...
though I do like the self mill effect. Sun titan deck? Maybe not. Perhaps we'll get some good reanimator spells to tinker around with again someday, but they know it would be broken with the current creature power level. (Turn 1 primeval titan? are you kidding me?)
After rotation, I think that this card is perfectly fine. He wins the game in 4-5 turns on his own with his glimpse ability. Along with other mill cards, games can end much quicker. Glimpsing also makes them lose responses and threats that can stop your jace. Sure, he can't "protect" himself, but lets be real here. You're playing blue. And that's probably not your only color. You have so many counterspells and removal spells to stop anything from killing your jace. And it's not like taking a hit will put you farther away from winning, because you can keep glimpsing even if JMA is at 1 loyalty. If you need to draw a response, you can also +1. I think people are just overlooking JMA's other abilities and comparing him to JTMS and JaceB too much. Yes, if you want to draw cards, then jace beleren is better. But I think of JMA as more of a finisher than a utility draw engine. You don't even need to run a mill deck to mill your opponent with JMA, as he can do it alone in 5 turns, which isn't bad for a control deck.
Glimpsing also makes them lose responses and threats that can stop your jace.
No, it doesn't. No one is tutoring for planeswalker hate because the quality of tutors is really poor, so you milling your opponent has no effect on the quality of their draws.
No, it doesn't. No one is tutoring for planeswalker hate because the quality of tutors is really poor, so you milling your opponent has no effect on the quality of their draws.
While that is usually true, a repeatable glimpse acts a little different. Say they start with three hex parasite in their deck. under normal circumstances the odds they will draw it are 3/D where D is the number of cards in their deck. When you start milling such massive amounts, it the odds they will draw it are h/D where h is the number of parasites left.
However this is misleading. We don't care when we draw the answer so long as it's not before we are dead. So we want the odds we will draw it over the course of several turns.
normally the odds we would get the answer are equal to the 1-((n/D)(n-1/D-1)...(n-t/D-t)) where n is stuff you don't want, d is your deck size when you need an answer, and t is the number of turns you have to find it. Milling however introduces a new variable. Now you have to include the odds you have of milling the answer vs them drawing it. And if they are only running three hex parasite, they aren't gonna draw it. Well they might, but it's about half as likely as it previously was.
I would like to remind everyone that this normally doesn't matter, because we normally don't get a repeatable glimpse the unthinkable.
EDIT: Hex parasite can be tutored with trinket mage. It's quite convenient.
I plan on using new jace as a finisher in a ub control deck. Why? Hear is why:
Vs more traditional control. The mill out races baneslayer and grave titan. Not that they will live very long, so I don't exactly need to race them. Also immune to all current instant speed spot removal.
Vs aggro. BSZ is where it is at. By turn five I can reliably draw it every other turn.
Vs combo. Duress, despise, distress, or whatever innistrad brings. Which ones depends on combo decks combo pieces obviously.
Vs graveyard shenanigans. Please read my signature. Will update come innistrad. may sub jace out of this match up depending on how popular the spoiled pharaoh is. Creature finishers wouldn't be good there.
I agree. Blue white's gone with the rotate,unless we see the reprint of Journey and Condemn. Blue Black just got another win con.(Jace 3.0)
I -might- play esper tho, because I already have my 3 gideons, and days.
Well guess I'll just have to wait and see if I ever get a hold of this version of Jace. In my opinion, this card might be a case of "you can't judge a book by its cover", this does appeal to a part of me that did run milling decks, casually I can destroy a deck or two before I'm knocked out of the game with one version of a U/B deck. Then again that deck ran mind funerals....Anyway I do have the feeling that he might turn out to be okay even with his cost with all the talk of Instrad(sp?) being graveyard happy (tad out of loop of all the gossip about the set).
Also even for his cost I'm fine with it, though would have been happier if he was a converted cost of 4 instead, but I'm fine with the cost being 5. Then again I'm use to paying that high for a planewalker..I mean I usually did okay with Venser or Sorin...(I only have one copy of those cards)
I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't just throw eggs at this kind of card, it amuses me too much to hate on it.
The "odds of you milling away their answer" are somewhat offset by "the odds of you milling them into their answer."
I just did the math. ASSUMING that no cards were drawn outside the draw step, no previous milling has occurred, and jace starts glimpsing a asap, the odds of the opponent drawing any three of that have not drawn any of previously, before they lose is approximately .29. If jace didn't glimpse, the odds of drawing it in the exact same scenario are .28. It turns out it's actually counter productive. Who would have guessed?
What is this crap that I see about Green-white infect being crazy now...? White has some crappy infect cards unless yall are just using it for support. I keep seeing this "but omg greenwhite infect is gonna kill". Did I miss something...?
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
And those are just a few examples. Not to mention Threshold, which I left out due to the antiquity of it. And those first four cards? They'll be in Standard with Jace v3 for the next year.
So your answer to making mill good is play cards we already know are not good enough?
Surgical Extraction one, does not effect the board, *not sure where you heard it did but it doesn't* and Necrotic Ooze has proven not to be good enough in standard, Myr Welder? Um ok?, and Bonehoard, show how many non-creatures did you mill? probably 6-7 I guess nice 3/3?
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Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
What is this crap that I see about Green-white infect being crazy now...? White has some crappy infect cards unless yall are just using it for support. I keep seeing this "but omg greenwhite infect is gonna kill". Did I miss something...?
The green pump up spells, and the white spells that give their infect creatures protection, = win.
An interesting idea although I doubt it will be crazy. For one there is no protection spell that can protect creatures from Valakut since it is colorless. Whats that u pump and attack me? I cast Harrow and deal 6 damage to ur creature
Also unless ur gonna tell me infect can easily win by their fourth turn then they still got splinter twin to deal with.
Also Surgical Extraction is perfectly relevant in the current meta. Mill ten from your opponent. Hit a Valakut, or a Splinter Twin and you can cripple alot of decks. The more players run combo decks the more relevant effects like Memoricide and Surgical Extraction are
The "odds of you milling away their answer" are somewhat offset by "the odds of you milling them into their answer."
I used to think this but in practice it doesnt seem to be true, what more accurate is milling something like a bloodghast or vengevine or you mill them then they morbid plunder or use their grim lavamancer or something and start destroying you
An interesting idea although I doubt it will be crazy. For one there is no protection spell that can protect creatures from Valakut since it is colorless. Whats that u pump and attack me? I cast Harrow and deal 6 damage to ur creature
Also unless ur gonna tell me infect can easily win by their fourth turn then they still got splinter twin to deal with.
Also Surgical Extraction is perfectly relevant in the current meta. Mill ten from your opponent. Hit a Valakut, or a Splinter Twin and you can cripple alot of decks. The more players run combo decks the more relevant effects like Memoricide and Surgical Extraction are
No but G/W infect a deck that already has shown some promise online on MODO PTQ's has shown that it's a real tier 2 deck and it can do some work.
It can kill by turn 4, 3 and even 2 with the proper set of spells.
The problem it has is it's alot like Kuldotha Red was inconsistant and doesn't always kill that quickly. But sometimes it can get there. I mean turn one glistner elf into turn two double groundswell plus mutagenic growth is good game against valakut no matter what they do if you're on the play.
However, it won't do alot post rotation since it loses alot of its big game because Zendikar rotates (Groundswell and Emerge Unscathed) and Giant growth is gone from M12.
Now as for your arguement that Surgical Extraction has relevance against combo decks is actually pretty narrow considering you already used an example of why JMA + Surgical extraction won't be that amazing against Twin and Valakut aka are you not dead by turn 5 when you're playing JMA?
Now I will admit Surgical extraction + Despise, IOK, Duress are pretty good against combo if you get it off early and at the right time. But saying that you're going to drop your mill card on valakut and twins kill turn and then get them with a surgical extraction is pushing your luck. Heck even Memoricide isn't that good against Valakut considering they're going to be trying to lay titan on turn 4 and killing on turn 5 or with twin with their end of turn deciever or counter your memoricide.
I think Jace has alot of similarities with Liliana Vess and will find a home in a slower more traditional draw go deck like U/B control. Maybe only as a 1 or 2 of but definitely will find a home. For a U/B control deck Liliana however had two great abilities and a finisher that usually will end the game. While Jace has one great ability, a good ultimate that will definitely draw you a way to end the game, and an ability that can all but ensure you're win in a stalemated board state.
No but G/W infect a deck that already has shown some promise online on MODO PTQ's has shown that it's a real tier 2 deck and it can do some work.
It can kill by turn 4, 3 and even 2 with the proper set of spells.
The problem it has is it's alot like Kuldotha Red was inconsistant and doesn't always kill that quickly. But sometimes it can get there. I mean turn one glistner elf into turn two double groundswell plus mutagenic growth is good game against valakut no matter what they do if you're on the play.
However, it won't do alot post rotation since it loses alot of its big game because Zendikar rotates (Groundswell and Emerge Unscathed) and Giant growth is gone from M12.
Now as for your arguement that Surgical Extraction has relevance against combo decks is actually pretty narrow considering you already used an example of why JMA + Surgical extraction won't be that amazing against Twin and Valakut aka are you not dead by turn 5 when you're playing JMA?
Now I will admit Surgical extraction + Despise, IOK, Duress are pretty good against combo if you get it off early and at the right time. But saying that you're going to drop your mill card on valakut and twins kill turn and then get them with a surgical extraction is pushing your luck. Heck even Memoricide isn't that good against Valakut considering they're going to be trying to lay titan on turn 4 and killing on turn 5 or with twin with their end of turn deciever or counter your memoricide.
I think Jace has alot of similarities with Liliana Vess and will find a home in a slower more traditional draw go deck like U/B control. Maybe only as a 1 or 2 of but definitely will find a home. For a U/B control deck Liliana however had two great abilities and a finisher that usually will end the game. While Jace has one great ability, a good ultimate that will definitely draw you a way to end the game, and an ability that can all but ensure you're win in a stalemated board state.
infect will never see the top. The only reason people even still talk about it is because it takes no skill to pump a creature and get a large number of counters. Any blockers ,counters, burn etc will put their **** to bed because when you play infect you put all your eggs into one basket. As much as I'd like to see standard mill work with this jace i doubt it will happen because there's too much I'd have to prepare for. Val, splinter, and (now reverting back) wu/ub control will retake the format for awhile until the next big thing comes along , but I assure you infect will remain meaningless to anyone who is not a kitchen table gamer.
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thats why i think for some one like me jace is a god send. for others not so much. just because you say people won't buy it or use it you are sadly mistaken. it will see play and will be some what effective. thsi jace was made for mill deck users and i am sure there are some out there. like me. but befor you say it is a bad card wait till the rest of the cards come out. who knows what other goodies will come out next.:D
I think he's kind of like Chandra Ablaze. Great Johnny card.
If, after drawing a bunch of extra cards and managing to protect a helpless 5cmc planeswalker for a few turns, an extra 20 cards is going to change the game in any way, I don't know what you're doing. Are you playing Psychatog and cast Jace, Memory Adept with Force of Will backup?
And if you're not using the mill or the ultimate, isn't he just a really bad Phyrexian Arena?
---
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WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
Tell that to Sorin and various other 6 CMC BOMBS!!! Jeez.. for a PW, it's fine. The card advantage is there for +1 and the Mill option is great for an unchanged loyalty...
Again, you fail to realize how vicious this card can get. Though I'm guessing this won't be more than $15-$20. But, we said that about Tezzy 2.0 and look what happened there...
Wait and see, people... He's cool in my eyes, but to you competitive type, stick to Sorin or Gid. Jeez.
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Vs more traditional control. The mill out races baneslayer and grave titan. Not that they will live very long, so I don't exactly need to race them. Also immune to all current instant speed spot removal.
Vs aggro. BSZ is where it is at. By turn five I can reliably draw it every other turn.
Vs combo. Duress, despise, distress, or whatever innistrad brings. Which ones depends on combo decks combo pieces obviously.
Vs graveyard shenanigans. Please read my signature. Will update come innistrad. may sub jace out of this match up depending on how popular the spoiled pharaoh is. Creature finishers wouldn't be good there.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
though I do like the self mill effect. Sun titan deck? Maybe not. Perhaps we'll get some good reanimator spells to tinker around with again someday, but they know it would be broken with the current creature power level. (Turn 1 primeval titan? are you kidding me?)
While that is usually true, a repeatable glimpse acts a little different. Say they start with three hex parasite in their deck. under normal circumstances the odds they will draw it are 3/D where D is the number of cards in their deck. When you start milling such massive amounts, it the odds they will draw it are h/D where h is the number of parasites left.
However this is misleading. We don't care when we draw the answer so long as it's not before we are dead. So we want the odds we will draw it over the course of several turns.
normally the odds we would get the answer are equal to the 1-((n/D)(n-1/D-1)...(n-t/D-t)) where n is stuff you don't want, d is your deck size when you need an answer, and t is the number of turns you have to find it. Milling however introduces a new variable. Now you have to include the odds you have of milling the answer vs them drawing it. And if they are only running three hex parasite, they aren't gonna draw it. Well they might, but it's about half as likely as it previously was.
I would like to remind everyone that this normally doesn't matter, because we normally don't get a repeatable glimpse the unthinkable.
EDIT: Hex parasite can be tutored with trinket mage. It's quite convenient.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
I agree. Blue white's gone with the rotate,unless we see the reprint of Journey and Condemn. Blue Black just got another win con.(Jace 3.0)
I -might- play esper tho, because I already have my 3 gideons, and days.
Don't know yet tho.
Soon to be
UWBEsper ControlUWB
or
UBControlUB
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Also even for his cost I'm fine with it, though would have been happier if he was a converted cost of 4 instead, but I'm fine with the cost being 5. Then again I'm use to paying that high for a planewalker..I mean I usually did okay with Venser or Sorin...(I only have one copy of those cards)
I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't just throw eggs at this kind of card, it amuses me too much to hate on it.
I just did the math. ASSUMING that no cards were drawn outside the draw step, no previous milling has occurred, and jace starts glimpsing a asap, the odds of the opponent drawing any three of that have not drawn any of previously, before they lose is approximately .29. If jace didn't glimpse, the odds of drawing it in the exact same scenario are .28. It turns out it's actually counter productive. Who would have guessed?
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
But the only problem is Greenwhite infect. :/
Soon to be
UWBEsper ControlUWB
or
UBControlUB
What is this crap that I see about Green-white infect being crazy now...? White has some crappy infect cards unless yall are just using it for support. I keep seeing this "but omg greenwhite infect is gonna kill". Did I miss something...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
So your answer to making mill good is play cards we already know are not good enough?
Surgical Extraction one, does not effect the board, *not sure where you heard it did but it doesn't* and Necrotic Ooze has proven not to be good enough in standard, Myr Welder? Um ok?, and Bonehoard, show how many non-creatures did you mill? probably 6-7 I guess nice 3/3?
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
The green pump up spells, and the white spells that give their infect creatures protection, = win.
Soon to be
UWBEsper ControlUWB
or
UBControlUB
Also unless ur gonna tell me infect can easily win by their fourth turn then they still got splinter twin to deal with.
Also Surgical Extraction is perfectly relevant in the current meta. Mill ten from your opponent. Hit a Valakut, or a Splinter Twin and you can cripple alot of decks. The more players run combo decks the more relevant effects like Memoricide and Surgical Extraction are
I used to think this but in practice it doesnt seem to be true, what more accurate is milling something like a bloodghast or vengevine or you mill them then they morbid plunder or use their grim lavamancer or something and start destroying you
No but G/W infect a deck that already has shown some promise online on MODO PTQ's has shown that it's a real tier 2 deck and it can do some work.
It can kill by turn 4, 3 and even 2 with the proper set of spells.
The problem it has is it's alot like Kuldotha Red was inconsistant and doesn't always kill that quickly. But sometimes it can get there. I mean turn one glistner elf into turn two double groundswell plus mutagenic growth is good game against valakut no matter what they do if you're on the play.
However, it won't do alot post rotation since it loses alot of its big game because Zendikar rotates (Groundswell and Emerge Unscathed) and Giant growth is gone from M12.
Now as for your arguement that Surgical Extraction has relevance against combo decks is actually pretty narrow considering you already used an example of why JMA + Surgical extraction won't be that amazing against Twin and Valakut aka are you not dead by turn 5 when you're playing JMA?
Now I will admit Surgical extraction + Despise, IOK, Duress are pretty good against combo if you get it off early and at the right time. But saying that you're going to drop your mill card on valakut and twins kill turn and then get them with a surgical extraction is pushing your luck. Heck even Memoricide isn't that good against Valakut considering they're going to be trying to lay titan on turn 4 and killing on turn 5 or with twin with their end of turn deciever or counter your memoricide.
I think Jace has alot of similarities with Liliana Vess and will find a home in a slower more traditional draw go deck like U/B control. Maybe only as a 1 or 2 of but definitely will find a home. For a U/B control deck Liliana however had two great abilities and a finisher that usually will end the game. While Jace has one great ability, a good ultimate that will definitely draw you a way to end the game, and an ability that can all but ensure you're win in a stalemated board state.
And I'm waiting to see what other goodies we have with Jace 3.0
Soon to be
UWBEsper ControlUWB
or
UBControlUB
infect will never see the top. The only reason people even still talk about it is because it takes no skill to pump a creature and get a large number of counters. Any blockers ,counters, burn etc will put their **** to bed because when you play infect you put all your eggs into one basket. As much as I'd like to see standard mill work with this jace i doubt it will happen because there's too much I'd have to prepare for. Val, splinter, and (now reverting back) wu/ub control will retake the format for awhile until the next big thing comes along , but I assure you infect will remain meaningless to anyone who is not a kitchen table gamer.