12/1/2004: Unless Time Stop is cast during the Ending phase, any "at the beginning of the end step"-triggered abilities don't get the chance to trigger on the turn Time Stop is cast. These abilities will trigger at the beginning of the next end step.
7/15/2007: Ending the turn this way means the following things happen in order: 1) All spells and abilities on the stack are exiled. This includes Time Stop, though it will continue to resolve. It also includes spells and abilities that can't be countered. 2) All attacking and blocking creatures are removed from combat. 3) State-based actions are checked. No player gets priority, and no triggered abilities are put onto the stack. 4) The current phase and/or step ends. The game skips straight to the cleanup step. The cleanup step happens in its entirety
On a repeatedly tappable artifact? I think this is just begging for use against an opponent's "EoT..." and "On your upkeep I win" abilities. =
Plus, it's a cheaper version of Chronatog for Stasis decks. HURRAH!
2) Less aggressive than Koth. Yes, even if you double a burn spell.
3) Has fewer combo shenanigans than Koth.
4) Has an ultimate which is both less likely to win the game for you than Koth's and is slower than Koths.
5) The same mana cost as Koth.
The only point she has over Koth is she's vastly more splashable. That's not nothing, but red mages are right to be disappointed.
No they aren't. Nowhere is it written that every planeswalker has to be "better" than one that came before. Before Scars everyone was whining that there were no good red walkers. Now we have 2 that are 4CMC and very good and yet people still find something to complain about! Holy crap! Just be happy with what you have people! Oh wait, this is a collectible card game driven by addiction... we can never be happy with what we have! I'm not really being sarcastic there... I'm out there buying new cards all the time like everyone else. In the end though I do find it easier to like what I like and be indifferent to the rest. Too much time and energy are spent on being negative in this hobby already.
Personally I think that she is different enough from Koth to not really be comparable. For her cost I feel that her abilities are very fair and are definitely on flavor for red.
Doesn't any one else think that it would be funny to Mindslaver someone with Sundial of the Infinite out? Tap out their lands and use one mana to end their turn on the upkeep just sounds hilarious n paininducing in a casual game which is where I see it going.
As for Chandra, better than Nalaar. Much better than Ablaze. Of course that really depends on circumstance but I still like it. I still wish that they made her ultimate copy every instant and sorcery that you cast for the rest of the turn and make some new minus ability instead. Oh well. Double Cruel Ultimatum anyone (granted I took 4 to the face once and still lived to win the game lol)?
Considering the fact that Chandra Nalaar was in Standard for 3+ years, we can reliably expect Firebrand to be reprinted at least one more time in M13, and possibly even M14.
I can't believe anyone is excited about this card. It is absolutely unplayable. I wouldn't even play her in LIMITED. Easily the worst walker printed since the green elf one. Absolutely terrible.
314. Cleanup Step
...
314.2. After discarding, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage is removed from permanents and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end (this game action doesn’t use the stack).
...
Yeah, since Until End Of Turn doesn't use a stack, the effects won't be exiled with the Sundial. So no permanent Titanic Growths, no permanent Blinks, no permanent Act of Aggression, nothing fun like that. I now BEG for someone to prove that wrong so I can break this card.
314. Cleanup Step
...
314.2. After discarding, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage is removed from permanents and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end (this game action doesn’t use the stack).
...
Yeah, since Until End Of Turn doesn't use a stack, the effects won't be exiled with the Sundial. So no permanent Titanic Growths, no permanent Blinks, no permanent Act of Aggression, nothing fun like that. I now BEG for someone to prove that wrong so I can break this card.
Thats quite correct. However, you can still break other things, like any effect that triggers at the beginning of the end step- final fortune, mimic vat, etc. You can still use it to exile spells on your own turn. You can still use it to end your turn before any step that would be bad for you, ala gideon jura. Etc etc.
So no permanent titanic growths, no permanent blinks, but plenty of RR time walks, plenty of permanent mimic vat copies, etc
You don't exile something until end of turn to blink it. You exile it and put a delayed trigger on the stack at the beginning of the end step, which never happens.
Also, one of the decks in the article was an astral slide deck, and I would bet they're right on wizards' site.
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It's kind of another moment when we throw our hands up and go "DAMMIT universe, why you gotta always make me look bad in front of everyone?".
Also, one of the decks in the article was an astral slide deck, and I would bet they're right on wizards' site.
The important difference is "until end of turn" vs. "at the next end step". "Until end of turn" means the effect ends when the turn does, regardless of how it ended and without using the stack. "At the next end step" puts a triggered ability on the stack when the end step begins, and so you can activate the Sundial then, and exile the ability before it resolves.
For example, you could make Giant Growth permanent if it read:
Target creature gets +3/+3. At the next end step, that creature gets -3/-3.
I think Chandra is great. She is comes down early enough which is when most red decks run out of gas and quickly end games if you got an Incinerate in hand. KOTH is better on its own but Chandra is better with her pet spells so it's depends on the metagame. I doubt her ultimate is going to matter a lot but it does help against life gaining control decks.
My first time posting on these forums, but I had to chime in. I read the first 2 pages of this thread and I know most people are focusing on Chandra, but I feel I have to stick up for the little guy. Sundial of the Infinite was basically tailor made for one of my favorite decks right now:
It's basically the back-up Platinum Angel that my deck always wanted. It works with both Pact of Negation and Final Fortune (although it works better with Final Fortune). I feel like I could easily replace Stifle with a single copy and fetch it with Entomb and then weld it in a pinch. I love it. (And yes, my deck is casual, but you could easily make it more competitive if you replace Phage for example.)
I'm a prototypical Johnny/Timmy at heart and I bet there are all kinds of uses for it. Can't wait until M12 is released.
so a Merfolk Skyscout w/o summoning sick. amulet of vigor Magosi, the Waterveil andd Sundial of the Infinite and 1 blue mana is infinite turn . oh my better rush out and use it b4 zandy is gone !!!
You can combo Sundial with Parallax Wave/Tide/Nexus in order to permanently remove all your opponents' creatures/lands/cards in hand. This might be good enough for a Legacy deck. Sundial doesn't even need to be in play beforehand, you can play Nexus on turn 3 and erase their hand, then on turn 4 tutor for and play Sundial while they can't answer, and then those cards are never coming back. You can also put Dreadnought into the same deck for that interaction.
so a Merfolk Skyscout w/o summoning sick. amulet of vigor Magosi, the Waterveil andd Sundial of the Infinite and 1 blue mana is infinite turn . oh my better rush out and use it b4 zandy is gone !!!
No, this won't "break" Magosi. Not even close. I've come to accept nothing will EVER allow you to break Magosi. No matter how hard you hunt for card interaction across the history of Magic, no matter how hard you pray.
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"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
Re magosi, the text reads
{T}, Remove an eon counter from Magosi, the Waterveil and return it to its owner's hand: Take an extra turn after this one.
The cost is paid first So it'll be back in your hand, if u TTY to end the turn on the third ability then th eon counter won't be placed.
Re mimic vat
Are we like dci sure that activating sundial washes the {3}, {T}: Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of the exiled card. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
Exile at the beginning of the next end step off the stack or does it trigger it? And what happens if u trigger multiple end step abilities?
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No, this won't "break" Magosi. Not even close. I've come to accept nothing will EVER allow you to break Magosi. No matter how hard you hunt for card interaction across the history of Magic, no matter how hard you pray.
Re mimic vat
Are we like dci sure that activating sundial washes the {3}, {T}: Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of the exiled card. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
Exile at the beginning of the next end step off the stack or does it trigger it? And what happens if u trigger multiple end step abilities?
Absolutely sure, AS LONG AS you do it like this:
DO NOT end the turn with sundial during your second main phase. The delay trigger will just happen at your opponent's end step (the next end step to occur) instead, and you'll have only kept your token for a turn.
Instead, GO ALL THE WAY TO THE END STEP AND LET THE ABILITY TRIGGER, then end the turn in response. The delayed trigger only happens once, on the "next" end step, which will have already happened and you won't have to worry about it anymore.
If you trigger multiple end step abilities, do it like this:
Stack the ones you don't want to happen first (on bottom) and the ones you do want to happen last (on top). Let the good ones resolve, then end your turn in response to the bad ones. If there are no good ones, stack them all and then end your turn without letting any of them resolve. Voila, washed clean!
On a repeatedly tappable artifact? I think this is just begging for use against an opponent's "EoT..." and "On your upkeep I win" abilities. =
Plus, it's a cheaper version of Chronatog for Stasis decks. HURRAH!
No, they aren't. They're trying to fit her where she doesn't belong.
She wasn't made to compete with Koth. Koth is the quintessential red planeswalker. There is no point in trying to make her compete with him.
It's wrong to compare her to him, because they're focused in two completely different directions.
No they aren't. Nowhere is it written that every planeswalker has to be "better" than one that came before. Before Scars everyone was whining that there were no good red walkers. Now we have 2 that are 4CMC and very good and yet people still find something to complain about! Holy crap! Just be happy with what you have people! Oh wait, this is a collectible card game driven by addiction... we can never be happy with what we have! I'm not really being sarcastic there... I'm out there buying new cards all the time like everyone else. In the end though I do find it easier to like what I like and be indifferent to the rest. Too much time and energy are spent on being negative in this hobby already.
Personally I think that she is different enough from Koth to not really be comparable. For her cost I feel that her abilities are very fair and are definitely on flavor for red.
As for Chandra, better than Nalaar. Much better than Ablaze. Of course that really depends on circumstance but I still like it. I still wish that they made her ultimate copy every instant and sorcery that you cast for the rest of the turn and make some new minus ability instead. Oh well. Double Cruel Ultimatum anyone (granted I took 4 to the face once and still lived to win the game lol)?
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314. Cleanup Step
...
314.2. After discarding, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage is removed from permanents and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end (this game action doesn’t use the stack).
...
Yeah, since Until End Of Turn doesn't use a stack, the effects won't be exiled with the Sundial. So no permanent Titanic Growths, no permanent Blinks, no permanent Act of Aggression, nothing fun like that. I now BEG for someone to prove that wrong so I can break this card.
Thats quite correct. However, you can still break other things, like any effect that triggers at the beginning of the end step- final fortune, mimic vat, etc. You can still use it to exile spells on your own turn. You can still use it to end your turn before any step that would be bad for you, ala gideon jura. Etc etc.
So no permanent titanic growths, no permanent blinks, but plenty of RR time walks, plenty of permanent mimic vat copies, etc
Also, one of the decks in the article was an astral slide deck, and I would bet they're right on wizards' site.
I do like the Sundial, though. So cheap, and repeatable, lends itself to all sorts of ideas. Maybe none really good, but ideas nonetheless.
Ulasht, The Hate Seed
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Thraximundar
Garza Zol, Plague Queen
The important difference is "until end of turn" vs. "at the next end step". "Until end of turn" means the effect ends when the turn does, regardless of how it ended and without using the stack. "At the next end step" puts a triggered ability on the stack when the end step begins, and so you can activate the Sundial then, and exile the ability before it resolves.
For example, you could make Giant Growth permanent if it read:
Target creature gets +3/+3. At the next end step, that creature gets -3/-3.
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My first time posting on these forums, but I had to chime in. I read the first 2 pages of this thread and I know most people are focusing on Chandra, but I feel I have to stick up for the little guy. Sundial of the Infinite was basically tailor made for one of my favorite decks right now:
http://www.casualmtg.net/2011/06/you-cant-lose.html
It's basically the back-up Platinum Angel that my deck always wanted. It works with both Pact of Negation and Final Fortune (although it works better with Final Fortune). I feel like I could easily replace Stifle with a single copy and fetch it with Entomb and then weld it in a pinch. I love it. (And yes, my deck is casual, but you could easily make it more competitive if you replace Phage for example.)
I'm a prototypical Johnny/Timmy at heart and I bet there are all kinds of uses for it. Can't wait until M12 is released.
Thread | Draft
No, this won't "break" Magosi. Not even close. I've come to accept nothing will EVER allow you to break Magosi. No matter how hard you hunt for card interaction across the history of Magic, no matter how hard you pray.
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
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On Vault of the Archangel
{T}, Remove an eon counter from Magosi, the Waterveil and return it to its owner's hand: Take an extra turn after this one.
The cost is paid first So it'll be back in your hand, if u TTY to end the turn on the third ability then th eon counter won't be placed.
Re mimic vat
Are we like dci sure that activating sundial washes the {3}, {T}: Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of the exiled card. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
Exile at the beginning of the next end step off the stack or does it trigger it? And what happens if u trigger multiple end step abilities?
"I feel like I haven't done my job unless somebody says, 'How the hell is that supposed to work?'" - Mark Rosewater
Collecting Islands need:
Unhinged & Unglued
Arena: Donato Giancola, Tony Szczudlo, Anson Maddocks, John Avon (ravnica)
European Land Program: Ben Thompsom, Eric Peterson, Ben Thompson
Fifth Edition J. W. Frost Islands foil
Location: Bangkok
(Unless you dig out a Rings of Brighthearth and a Deserted Temple, in which case you can take infinite turns (albeit turns without land drops).
Absolutely sure, AS LONG AS you do it like this:
DO NOT end the turn with sundial during your second main phase. The delay trigger will just happen at your opponent's end step (the next end step to occur) instead, and you'll have only kept your token for a turn.
Instead, GO ALL THE WAY TO THE END STEP AND LET THE ABILITY TRIGGER, then end the turn in response. The delayed trigger only happens once, on the "next" end step, which will have already happened and you won't have to worry about it anymore.
If you trigger multiple end step abilities, do it like this:
Stack the ones you don't want to happen first (on bottom) and the ones you do want to happen last (on top). Let the good ones resolve, then end your turn in response to the bad ones. If there are no good ones, stack them all and then end your turn without letting any of them resolve. Voila, washed clean!
Modern - UG Mana Denial GU
. . . . . . .
WBG Melira Pod GBWCommander - BR Olivia Voldaren RB Vampire Tribal
. . . . . . . . . WUB Sharuum the Hegemon BUW Not-Broken Artifact Midrange
. . . . . . . . . WUG Rafiq of the Many GUW Voltron
. . . . . . . . . . .UB Oona, Queen of the Fae BU No-combo Tempo-Mill
. . . . . . . . . WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic BUW Pillow Fort
I'm thinking of other ways to break the sundial, but most of it is probably going to be non-standard.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290