[MBS] Worlds spoilers: Mirran & Phyrexian Crusader

  • #253
    Dont feel like repeating myself really:

    Quote from ViciousBoston
    You guys are all taking the infect portion of this way too far. He is an amazing 3 drop, probably the best black has aside Nighthawk. Nighthawk won't win you games. It will work great as a defender but its suceptible for bolt. Phyrexian Crusader is better than it except for the fact it doesn't have flying. They have to kill it by attacking.

    So what we have is a situation. Lets sey they resolve a threat. You get to block with this guy and before any damage is done to you, they get 2 big -1-1 counters. 6/6 threat becomes a mediocre 4/4 before damage. 5 attacks to kill aside 4 now. Not a big difference? It is. Every turn matters. This guy is solid in any black deck.


    ^This.

    Seriously guys, even with infect, this is by far one of blacks best current three drops. Sword of body and mind on this guy and even in a normal black list he becomes a considerable 3 turn wincon.

    Mono B can now make use of Grasp of darkness. Livewire lash has a stable (more stable) target on the board now. Wall of omens, white weenies, gideon is rendered useless to him. It is definitely viable. and will be in black sb's if no where else.

    And yes Mirran crusader is a great card, but it's adds to the issue of Knight.dec and doesn't help many other white strategies. The cmc of it is perfect in reflection to it's counterpart, but the Cmc is bad.

    There are very few places where a white mana intensive 3cmc creature drop will be useful. slows down many lists and outright makes others clunky. Black's 3 cmc slot is the same, but black only has 2-3 good drops at that cost and many of the lists aren't rushdown anyway.

    TL;DR: Phyrexian Crusader is easily an asset to black as Mirran Crusader might just turn out to be more white chaff, probably sitting in that pile many BSA's are in at the moment. White has too many other useful cards to spend a 3cmc slot on something the doesn't provide immediate CA or tempo.

    Honestly, at most, Mirran will see play out of sbs because Infect has become a solid game strategy; even then, it clearly can't stump every infect creature now can it?

    @Teia: I'm not sure where you get the patience to argue the same points over and over again to everyone not getting it... sigh.

    Also, the machine build on control works nicely with infect. this 3 black drop is an asset to the archetype to be honest. only creatures machine control needs is necropede, skith, maybe ichor rats. This is a very solid creature to give the deck more meat.
    Last edited by VexedShusher: 12/13/2010 4:41:32 AM
    ~Intelligence is Bliss; Ignorance is Denial.



    Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
    When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.


  • #254
    Quote from fistsofthor
    How could infect compare to a turn 1 wild nacatyl, and having it be a 3/3 on turn 2?


    It doesn't really have to. All you need is something like Groundswell -> Berserk -> dead, and literally any infect creature can get you that. You're not looking to match their creatures in combat. You're looking to slip just one through once or twice.

    And yes I know dropping Siege-Gang is pretty much your ideal turn 2. I was relating a personal anecdote that in hindsight would have been much funnier in person since the scoop in question involved my opponent not even saying anything. He just picked up his cards and silently started shuffling for game 2.
    "Being a Hero has a lot of perks, you know. You get the respect of the people, cheap rates at inns, and you can even walk into people's houses and take stuff!"

    Have questions or comments? Need your rabbit shod? Visit Teia's Rabbit Shoe Boutique today!
  • #255
    Best Knights I have ever since and for all formats... All swords, darksteel axe, Stoneforge Mystic and Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, I hope Knight will be the WB tribe.
    Currently playing
    ______________

    Commander:
    WBG Ghave
    RU Joihra

    Legacy:
    W Death and Taxes
    WB Stoneblade
  • #256
    Quote from VexedShusher
    Dont feel like repeating myself really:



    ^This.

    Seriously guys, even with infect, this is by far one of blacks best current three drops. Sword of body and mind on this guy and even in a normal black list he becomes a considerable 3 turn wincon.

    Mono B can now make use of Grasp of darkness. Livewire lash has a stable (more stable) target on the board now. Wall of omens, white weenies, gideon is rendered useless to him. It is definitely viable. and will be in black sb's if no where else.

    And yes Mirran crusader is a great card, but it's adds to the issue of Knight.dec and doesn't help many other white strategies. The cmc of it is perfect in reflection to it's counterpart, but the Cmc is bad.

    There are very few places where a white mana intensive 3cmc creature drop will be useful. slows down many lists and outright makes others clunky. Black's 3 cmc slot is the same, but black only has 2-3 good drops at that cost and many of the lists aren't rushdown anyway.

    TL;DR: Phyrexian Crusader is easily an asset to black as Mirran Crusader might just turn out to be more white chaff, probably sitting in that pile many BSA's are in at the moment. White has too many other useful cards to spend a 3cmc slot on something the doesn't provide immediate CA or tempo.

    Honestly, at most, Mirran will see play out of sbs because Infect has become a solid game strategy; even then, it clearly can't stump every infect creature now can it?

    @Teia: I'm not sure where you get the patience to argue the same points over and over again to everyone not getting it... sigh.

    Also, the machine build on control works nicely with infect. this 3 black drop is an asset to the archetype to be honest. only creatures machine control needs is necropede, skith, maybe ichor rats. This is a very solid creature to give the deck more meat.


    Ok VexedShusher (and ViciousBoston who you quoted) I don´t know in which format you are playing but let me tell you - an unreliable 3 mana wall will not see play. And unless you are playing an infect deck the black crusader is nothing more than that.

    Unless you play additional pump effects he simply is no threat to your opponent, he doesn´t even endanger their planeswalkers (Jace in the most cases) enough (unlike the white crusader with double strike). And the fact the he becomes one IF you play an additional equipment doesn´t make him any better.

    Compare that to the nighthawk - which is an amazing creature on its own - he wins races, applies pressure and is able to trade with Titans (WITHOUT needing further card investment like Grasp of Darkness).

    Mono-R Aggro/Sligh is the only thing which could have a problem with Phyrexian Crusader - and even then most red players will be happy that you wasted a card to play a wall.
    Last edited by Warrior57: 12/13/2010 5:38:45 AM
  • #257
    Quote from Warrior57
    Ok VexedShusher (and ViciousBoston who you quoted) I don´t know in which format you are playing but let me tell you - an unreliable 3 mana wall will not see play. And unless you are playing an infect deck the black crusader is nothing more than that.

    Unless you play additional pump effects he simply is no threat to your opponent, he doesn´t even endanger their planeswalkers (Jace in the most cases) enough (unlike the white crusader with double strike). And the fact the he becomes one IF you play an additional equipment doesn´t make him any better.

    Compare that to the nighthawk - which is an amazing creature on its own - he wins races, applies pressure and is able to trade with Titans (WITHOUT needing further card investment like Grasp of Darkness).

    Mono-R Aggro/Sligh is the only thing which could have a problem with Phyrexian Crusader - and even then most red players will be happy that you wasted a card to play a wall.


    unless unless unless... if if if... Why wouldn't I? Really, why wouldn't I play pump or Mono Black infect? it's not like you can bolt or pte this guy in rsp. and if I'm going to pump, why not strengthen my creature flat out with equips instead of wasting slots for instances of a high p/t infecter. Element of surprise? lol. who cares. the only thing giving this creature a hard time is DoJ and Jace realistically. other options aren't even played competitively. and using either of those to get rid of my one infecter is fine with me.

    For decks that don't have answers to it: it's either race out or kill off until i can take my time poisoning. of course I'm oversimplifying it but that seems to be the general case.

    the two best removal spells in standard are Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade. guess which has protection from both.

    it's a 3 cmc win con that doubles as a wall. Not vice versa. this ends the game a turn slower than BSA without assistance, it can win the game 1-2 turns faster with assistance.

    Night hawk is a 10 turn wincon. screw life gain and creature interaction. it's irrelevant when it comes to ending the game. when all threats are cleared or your opp is neutered, Vampire nighthawk is not a relevant at all. Which would make you ☺☺☺☺ yourself more? A t2 Phyrexian Crusader or a t2 Nighthawk?

    There's no comparison.

    On titans, LOL!

    Give that some thought my friend so you can see what you just did thar.

    Vampire Nighthawk on Grave Titan - Both dead. 1 creature card lost each. CA for titan user.

    Crusader, Grasp on Grave Titan - Titan Dead, removal spell and creature card lost respectively. CA for titan user.

    I keep my creature, you just lost your's. Actually, I have no reason to not use Nighthawk as my removal spell in that situation as no matter what, it's still a 1for1 trade. I just maintain my board presence.

    ...wait, let's switch it up.

    Sun titan? I win. you trade.

    Inferno? I win. You lose nighthawk and have to deal with the consequences of thinking it's better than Crusader.

    Frost? knocks both of ours out.

    Primeval? I win. You trade and take the trample dmg.

    how is Grasp on Crusader not flat out better? Best decision made short of doom blade 5-8.

    TL;DR: Not sure why there this much denial coming from anyone.
    Last edited by VexedShusher: 12/13/2010 6:38:14 AM
    ~Intelligence is Bliss; Ignorance is Denial.



    Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
    When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.


  • #258
    I've been playing a lot of block constructed and infect will really love this 3 mana stud. Right now, there are not a lot of black options at the 3 drop spot aside from Ichor Rats (a must include). Contagious Nim is not that hot and Cystbearer, although great, is green. The new guy fills a hole in my infect deck and I can't wait to grab that bad boy up.

    Interested to see the rest of the set and how it helps/hurts infect.....
  • #259
    Dear god man

    You cannot compare "this card vs titan" to "this card plus a bad combat trick vs titan". Why not just doom blade the titan instead of combining with a last gasp and having to pass on your attack. Thats like comparing Channel + Fireball to Fireball + 4x Priest of Titania + Staff of Domination



    Yeah, this might be superior to vampire nighthawk in a non-infect deck.... if its your only creature, in which case you aren't kill anyone by turning sideways, ever. But the second you start putting in infect or non-infect creatures, you're pegged into one strategy or the other. And I'll tell you which one is historically better and is the only viable one outside of standard (and tbh inside it too so far)
    PSA- With BNG having many 'opponents choice' effects and not just in tribute, it helps to know how to evaluate such mechanics:

    Whenever a mechanic gives an opponent his choice of one of multiple options, the ability is overall worth less than the least of these options, made worse by how different the options are and better by your ability to manipulate this choice. In most cases you have no meaningful way to influence your opponents choice.
  • #260
    My indestructible knight deck just got a new member! I like them.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat
  • #261
    i really prefer more swords over that cards... maybe in another block for W/R and G/B sword...
    ...ʇsod ʎɯ ǝǝs noʎ buıɥɔʇɐʍ ɯɐ ı
    Deck Building Primer - Casual Grin
    Sliver Primer - Casual Grin Share your tips with us !!
    Want To Buy List Cool Please Check !!

    Now Playing:
    Excaliboros R(R/W)W / Maverick G(G/W)W
    Bant Pro Excalibur (G/U)W(G/U) / Merfolk (W/U)U(U/B)
  • #262
    Quote from maestrogrande
    A cursory search of DeckCheck.org shows that you are wrong. Ironically, your use of the word "ironically" did not denote any actual irony.


    Current.

    Quote from maestrogrande

    Again, searching deckcheck.org would show that Lightning Bolt is a little less common than Mountain in Legacy. That's probably an exaggeration, but searching for either returns the maximum number of Legacy decklists, three hundred.

    Current.

    Your oh-so-reliable DeckCheck.org displays a whopping 1 result for Lightning Bolt in the past year (this is not DeckCheck.net, clearly. A site is only as good as its submissions). The site just seems hilariously broken. In fact I'm pretty sure you just entered "Lightning Bolt" in the search field without looking at the time period at all.

    Regardless, spamming DeckCheck results is not a substitute for understanding the format. Your "impressions" remain irrelevant.
    Quote from maestrogrande

    Blahblahblah


    Thanks.
    Last edited by FieryBalrog: 12/13/2010 8:58:11 AM
  • #263
    Quote from VexedShusher
    unless unless unless... if if if... Why wouldn't I? Really, why wouldn't I play pump or Mono Black infect? it's not like you can bolt or pte this guy in rsp. and if I'm going to pump, why not strengthen my creature flat out with equips instead of wasting slots for instances of a high p/t infecter. Element of surprise? lol. who cares. the only thing giving this creature a hard time is DoJ and Jace realistically. other options aren't even played competitively. and using either of those to get rid of my one infecter is fine with me.

    For decks that don't have answers to it: it's either race out or kill off until i can take my time poisoning. of course I'm oversimplifying it but that seems to be the general case.

    the two best removal spells in standard are Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade. guess which has protection from both.

    it's a 3 cmc win con that doubles as a wall. Not vice versa. this ends the game a turn slower than BSA without assistance, it can win the game 1-2 turns faster with assistance.

    Night hawk is a 10 turn wincon. screw life gain and creature interaction. it's irrelevant when it comes to ending the game. when all threats are cleared or your opp is neutered, Vampire nighthawk is not a relevant at all. Which would make you ☺☺☺☺ yourself more? A t2 Phyrexian Crusader or a t2 Nighthawk?

    There's no comparison.

    On titans, LOL!

    Give that some thought my friend so you can see what you just did thar.

    Vampire Nighthawk on Grave Titan - Both dead. 1 creature card lost each. CA for titan user.

    Crusader, Grasp on Grave Titan - Titan Dead, removal spell and creature card lost respectively. CA for titan user.

    I keep my creature, you just lost your's. Actually, I have no reason to not use Nighthawk as my removal spell in that situation as no matter what, it's still a 1for1 trade. I just maintain my board presence.

    ...wait, let's switch it up.

    Sun titan? I win. you trade.

    Inferno? I win. You lose nighthawk and have to deal with the consequences of thinking it's better than Crusader.

    Frost? knocks both of ours out.

    Primeval? I win. You trade and take the trample dmg.

    how is Grasp on Crusader not flat out better? Best decision made short of doom blade 5-8.

    TL;DR: Not sure why there this much denial coming from anyone.


    You are completely ignoring the fact that the crusaders doesn´t work together with non-infect creatures. Yes theoretically he needs 5 attacks instead of 10 - but you are pretending he´s the only creature you ever play.

    Each kind of damage you deal reduces the number of attacks the non-infect creature (in this case the Nighthawk) needs to win. Unless you play a heavy infect focused deck the Crusader simply can´t build on that.

    Not to mention that lifegain & dealing damage in one package is a much better deal than playing a wall, which just sits around until you managed to stabilize the game by other means (and then stills needs 5 successfull attacks to win). In addition, as a 3 mana creature Nighthawk is capable of trading with the most powerful creatures in the format on its own, or sometimes even convincing your opponent to skip an attack, - there shouldn´t be arguing which is the better card.

    Your opinion on the titans really gave me the impression you aren´t a very experienced player (sorry if I am wrong about that). If you need an additional card to handle them (You´re aware that you will meet them in every tournament.) something went wrong while building your deck.

    Fact is: Neither of them will see play in non-aggro strategies. Buf if, then the Nighthawk is much more likable to be played. Unless you focus the deck around him Phyrexian Crusader is a junk rare.
    Last edited by Warrior57: 12/13/2010 9:13:42 AM
  • #264
    Ackbert's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures
    4 Knight Exemplar
    4 Kemba's Skyguard
    4 Student of Warfare
    4 Mirran Crusader
    2 Kabira Vindicator
    4 White Knight

    Spells
    4 Honor of the Pure
    2 Marshal's Anthem
    2 Brave the Elements
    3 Ajani Goldmane
    3 Journey to Nowhere

    Lands
    20 Plains
    4 Sejiri Steppe


    This is begging to be built for standard now. With a few tweaks, and maybe a knight that is better than Kabira Vindicator /fingerscrossed, this could be a decent WW build. I know I'm going to try it. Grin
    Bring me back my leagues on MODO!!!

    Commander:
    RG Thromok The Insatiable - OneShot.dec
    R Starke of Rath - The Machine!
    BUG Vorosh, the Hunter - Bouncing goodstuff
    WUR Ruhan of the Fomori - Equip and Smash
  • #265
    Quote from Warrior57
    You are completely ignoring the fact that the crusaders doesn´t work together with non-infect creatures. Yes theoretically he needs 5 attacks instead of 10 - but you are pretending he´s the only creature you ever play.

    Each kind of damage you deal reduces the number of attacks the non-infect creature (in this case the Nighthawk) needs to win. Unless you play a heavy infect focused deck the Crusader simply can´t build on that.

    Not to mention that lifegain & dealing damage in one package is a much better deal than playing a wall, which just sits around until you managed to stabilize the game by other means (and then stills needs 5 successfull attacks to win). In addition, as a 3 mana creature Nighthawk is capable of trading with the most powerful creatures in the format on its own, or sometimes even convincing your opponent to skip an attack, - there shouldn´t be arguing which is the better card.

    Your opinion on the titans really gave me the impression you aren´t a very experienced player (sorry if I am wrong about that). If you need an additional card to handle them (You´re aware that you will meet them in every tournament.) something went wrong while building your deck.

    Fact is: Neither of them will see play in non-aggro strategies. Buf if, then the Nighthawk is much more likable to be played. Unless you focus the deck around him Phyrexian Crusader is a junk rare.


    Phyrexian Crusader is interesting because he has protection against lightning bolt and path to exile or swords to plowshares and can't be target by doom blade. Phyrexian crusader with a jitte or a sword is completly different...

    Vampire Nighthawk is I think better when he stays on the battlefield on his own. But even in a non infect deck, the crusader can find a place.
    Currently playing
    ______________

    Commander:
    WBG Ghave
    RU Joihra

    Legacy:
    W Death and Taxes
    WB Stoneblade
  • #266
    this is good news for exemplar---maybe now we'll get a nice 2-drop to take white-knight's slot.


    Trade List
    MTGSalvation trade list

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    "If you kill me now, it is I who will live, not your damned apples."

    "Just mention a firing pole with balls and he's
    already thinking about 'that'..."



    Decks Played:
    Deadguy's WailBW (Legacy)
    SliversGWUBR (Modern)
    Vengevine the Rerevengeancening BRG (Modern)

    Lets Debate
  • #267
    AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    although my thought was that these arts would have been used for lords for the factions but champions are still a nice use.
    Quote from Elysium
    In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.

    Quote from mesa
    If you read ''The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' then you should know how they fly. You just have to ''miss'' the ground or forget to hit the ground. Grin
  • #268
    The power isn't even bothering to creep anymore it's just blatantly flat out running.
    Quote from The Big Dunks

    It turns out that the melting ice caps aren't the cause of the rising ocean levels, it's OP's river of tears.


    I support the closure of the Gutter.
  • #269
    Quote from NovemberMike
    I think he's trying to say that infect is basically wither + bad in a non-infect deck, which is true.

    That's part of it, but it has to do with mechanics as a whole. Let's give a quick mechanic break down:

    Great Mechanics:

    Cycling; this is the holy grail of mechanics. Not only can you play it in any deck, without caring about whether or not you have other cycling cards, but it's a powerful mechanic that isn't absurdly power or forces drastic cost increases. Eternal Dragon was reasonably costed at his time, even if he didn't have Cycling, but Cycling also didn't make him broken, it just made him a bit better.

    More so, you can build around Cycling if you wanted to as it's not only a decent mechanic but can be used as an engine for decks like Crypt or Open the Vaults where you're using Cycling as a main theme to power cards that aren't directly created to make Cycling better (as in Slide). So in short it adds a lot to the game without taking anything away.

    Dredge: It's a bit more restrictive than Cycling because of how much stronger it can be, but it still interacts with mechanics like Flashback, can be built around, or simply used as a stand alone card. You also don't need to use it in a Dredge deck, because as long as it's reasonably costed it adds to the card and there are cards you'd play regardless if they had Dredge.

    I could play Modlervine Cloak and Call of the Herd in so many different decks without having to depend on one card or the other, but both cards made each other better.

    ====================

    Good Mechanics:

    Flash Back: Good mechanic that goes into any deck, but stands above the other good mechanics simply because of how it can be costed in order for it to interact with other mechanics and deck types. In short things like Therapy and Dread Return makes it a bit better than other Good mechanics. It's also nice with Looter abilities.

    Scry/Wither/Kicker/etc: Strong mechanics that go on any card really (Wither is the tricky one but in theory it can go on an enchantment/artifact if needed) and don't force your deck in one direction or the other. However, unlike the great mechanics you can't really figure out innovative ways to abuse them and combo them out unless there are cards printed to specifically support them (example; Rumbling Aftershocks).

    =======================

    Ok-ish Mechanics:

    Metal Craft/Landfall/etc: People will argue this but in all honesty while these mechanics are restrictive you can still play them without too much worry. Almost all decks play Lands so Landfall isn't too terribly restrictive and can do various things, but it does promote a certain kind of deck and requires things like Fetches to be printed.

    Metalcraft is worse than Landfall but all of the cards are still playable on their own and you have room for things like Galvanic Blast which is an ok spell that sometimes does something more. As in, it's Shock plus something, instead of "these cards can't be played unless you're supporting heavy artifacts".

    Affinity: It's borderline bad because it requires you to play heavy artifacts or your spells are overcosted usually, however it doesn't always force you into artifacts as some spells aren't "useless" if you're not in artifacts... Frogmite is still a Grey Ogre in reality as Shadowmourne shows us that 1 coloured symbol equals roughly 2 colourless, so 4 for a 2/2 is kind of like 2R for a 2/2.

    However, this is where we see a problem showing up, the mechanic is starting to be so specific that it will almost always either be overpowered or underpowerd. Remember now, a good or bad mechanic is different than a strong or week mechanic in terms of play. Being bad "for" Standard isn't the same as being bad "in" Standard. Clearly with Affinity we saw such a strong push in the form of Artifact lands that the mechanic was busted in half, but when you removed artifact lands it became "ok" at best.

    =====================

    Bad Mechanics:

    Infect: This mechanic is the very definition of being restrictive and is in fact a good mechanic subsidising a bad mechanic, that was made worse.

    It forces you to play Infect, without really allowing you to play the cards easily as stand alone. Sure you can use Phyrexian Crusader as a blocker in UB but that's because of the card itself and Infect only serves to make it worse where Wither would make it better.

    The mechanic forces other mechanics and cards to be printed in the set that almost specifically support it. Proliferate isn't a very strong mechanic and is mostly around because of Infect, however, even then people don't like using it for Infect but rather for other cards that use counters (Walkers, Ascensions, Etc).

    And finally we will either see Infect never being good enough, or being too good (as in the case of Affinity), in the future simply because of how much support it requires to make it playable in the first place.

    So in short, it adds nothing to the game, restricts how you build decks greatly, doesn't interact with any other mechanic aside from ones created to specifically support it, and can be replaced by other mechanics in the long run. If anything the mechanic is used to make cards weaker, as in the case of Phyrexian Crusader who would be so much stronger if he only had the Wither part, to the extent that he could be a little too strong almost, but instead he has Infect and turns into a sub-par card.
  • #270
    Quote from clan_iraq
    Heres an example of completely unbalanced Mirran vs Phyrexian. They might be equal for power as draft bombs and in standard for now...


    I'll stop you right there.

    First off, I think you are right about these both being bombs in limited. But I seriously doubt they will see any constructed play.

    Now that we know the set is called New Phyrexia. It would be nice if WoTC gave us some non-filler spoilers for Besieged.
  • #271
    Quote from freeza59650
    Phyrexian Crusader is interesting because he has protection against lightning bolt and path to exile or swords to plowshares and can't be target by doom blade. Phyrexian crusader with a jitte or a sword is completly different...

    Vampire Nighthawk is I think better when he stays on the battlefield on his own. But even in a non infect deck, the crusader can find a place.


    I can´t see how. Yes its combination of pro: abilites is amazing, paired with first strike is great - but infect turns the card useless. The moment you don´t play an infect deck the crusader is a decent wall, nothing more because that awful mechanic plays only with itself.
  • #272
    The white knight will see constructed play if student of warfare is starting to see play and will continue to- it may be no staple, but it should find a home. I am aware we are spoiled for white creatures which is why many good cards simply don't see play, but 3 CMC is far more crowded in legacy than standard- any white aggro or weenie deck would be happy to toss down such a bomb, even if WW quest might not want it- theres still aggro

    The black knight obviously hinges entirely on infect. Hes such a bomb that if infect is played, he is played, if infect is not played, he is not played, that simple. And infect is currently not played but theres a very small card pool, mind. I'd say its doubtful. But having both out? That would be disturbing considering their powers.

    Great Mechanics:

    ...

    Dredge: It's a bit more restrictive than Cycling because of how much stronger it can be, but it still interacts with mechanics like Flashback, can be built around, or simply used as a stand alone card. You also don't need to use it in a Dredge deck, because as long as it's reasonably costed it adds to the card and there are cards you'd play regardless if they had Dredge.

    I could play Modlervine Cloak and Call of the Herd in so many different decks without having to depend on one card or the other, but both cards made each other better.



    I think dredge is a good mechanic but it doesn't deserve to be up there as a great timeless deal. Its an example of a well done single block flavor, but its not evergreen quality like cycling. Because even when its bizarrely fun, wildly interactive and adds a huge element of depth and deck building and overall plays well- its still a very linear mechanic. Dredge wants more dredge, dredge wants you to build your deck around it instead of with it. Its nowhere near as severe as the godawful poison mechanic which requires 100% build around for any card related to it and offers absolutely positive in return- its just a heavy lean towards "dredge wants a dredge deck" even if the mechanic itself is incredibly cool. Cycling on the other hand can appear as a 1-of in any deck w/o problems, yet is elegant and wildly exploitable and quite well regarded.


    I feel if landfall was taken outside of fetches and balanced for it it could have been a much better mechanic- like you say it becomes dependent on certain builds because of that. It was great design in that it solved its intended problem (dead land topdecks), but it wasn't quite elegant and isn't anywhere near exploitable or engine-able.



    I don't think infect is inherently bad. I think poison is not just incredibly bad, but provably useless and insanely awful as a game mechanic. But infect cannibalized wither, and wither was a good mechanic- as you said. Infect simply took a good mechanic and attached a turd to it. Its now a slightly less than good mechanic, but thats cheating since the only change was making it worse.


    All this of course because Maro refuses to except a simple aspect of game design that I could explain to a 70 year old grandma who has never played any game in her life but cribbage in a single sitting with my hands tied behind my back. Because a certain someone couldn't grasp how "poison sucks, its just second life total" and had to insist so hard that he could fix it (and didn't)
    Last edited by clan_iraq: 12/13/2010 12:32:00 PM
    PSA- With BNG having many 'opponents choice' effects and not just in tribute, it helps to know how to evaluate such mechanics:

    Whenever a mechanic gives an opponent his choice of one of multiple options, the ability is overall worth less than the least of these options, made worse by how different the options are and better by your ability to manipulate this choice. In most cases you have no meaningful way to influence your opponents choice.
  • #273
    The white knight will see constructed play if student of warfare is starting to see play and will continue to


    Where has Student of Warfare seen play in standard? Extended maybe, but not standard.
    My trade thread: Kengy's Trades

    My twitter account: @Kengy5

    My blog about cube:
    Slaughter Cry
  • #274
    Maybe I'm dyslexic
    Played in WW quest however, afaik. Maybe not all lists. also student is not a 3 drop so I really turned that backwards ^__^
    Last edited by clan_iraq: 12/13/2010 12:47:00 PM
    PSA- With BNG having many 'opponents choice' effects and not just in tribute, it helps to know how to evaluate such mechanics:

    Whenever a mechanic gives an opponent his choice of one of multiple options, the ability is overall worth less than the least of these options, made worse by how different the options are and better by your ability to manipulate this choice. In most cases you have no meaningful way to influence your opponents choice.
  • #275
    Quote from clan_iraq
    I think dredge is a good mechanic but it doesn't deserve to be up there as a great timeless deal. Its an example of a well done single block flavor, but its not evergreen quality like cycling. Because even when its bizarrely fun, wildly interactive and adds a huge element of depth and deck building and overall plays well- its still a very linear mechanic. Dredge wants more dredge, dredge wants you to build your deck around it instead of with it. Its nowhere near as severe as the godawful poison mechanic which requires 100% build around for any card related to it and offers absolutely positive in return- its just a heavy lean towards "dredge wants a dredge deck" even if the mechanic itself is incredibly cool. Cycling on the other hand can appear as a 1-of in any deck w/o problems, yet is elegant and wildly exploitable and quite well regarded.


    I feel if landfall was taken outside of fetches and balanced for it it could have been a much better mechanic- like you say it becomes dependent on certain builds because of that. It was great design in that it solved its intended problem (dead land topdecks), but it wasn't quite elegant and isn't anywhere near exploitable or engine-able.



    I don't think infect is inherently bad. I think poison is not just incredibly bad, but provably useless and insanely awful as a game mechanic. But infect cannibalized wither, and wither was a good mechanic- as you said. Infect simply took a good mechanic and attached a turd to it. Its now a slightly less than good mechanic, but thats cheating since the only change was making it worse.


    All this of course because Maro refuses to except a simple aspect of game design that I could explain to a 70 year old grandma who has never played any game in her life but cribbage in a single sitting with my hands tied behind my back. Because a certain someone couldn't grasp how "poison sucks, its just second life total" and had to insist so hard that he could fix it (and didn't)

    Dredge was a really hard decision for me honestly. Originally I had Cycling in mind as the "Holy Grail" category all by itself simply because of how complex and simple it is at the same time.

    The reason I included Dredge, even if it's usually more about Dredge with more Dredge, is because there are Dredge cards that are fine on their own. Just to give a few examples:

    - Moldervine Cloak: It was great in UG control that pre-dated Scryb Force and ran things like Looter, Call, and so forth. It was a Tempo deck and the Cloak was great for simply a reusable enchantment that went on your Birds or Looter and allowed you to beat in. It also sometimes had the benefit of giving you a Call in the Yard so if you had six mana for some reason you could get two spells out of it... And it does have it's advantages over just running equipment, while also having disadvantages.

    - Graveshell Scarab: It was a solid card with a very reasonable Dredge cost that basically replaced 1 card for 1 card. It also had the benefit of letting you draw cards in response to removal or damage stacking, and getting it back the next turn instead of risking a top deck. It was a tad overcosted though.

    - Life from the Loam: This card is playable and it benefits itself via Dredge because it can get more targets into the yard while you Dredge it. More so it has great uses like in 42Lands.dec because it's massive card advantage when coupled with your Cycling lands.

    - Necroplasm: This is a pretty good example of a card that's both an engine and a spell. In Solar Pox it helped get a Haakon or Fattie in the yard while also being cast in order to slow down aggro because it could blow up the board slowly or act as a simple blocker.

    Cycling is still LEAGUES beyond any mechanic in my mind, but I felt like Dredge was both a good engine for many decks and still had enough playable cards in it to put it just above the "good" status. The biggest issue with Dredge is that it either has to be costed in such a way that milling could become an issue or the cards have to be slightly worse in one way or another if they have a low Dredge cost. Though that opens up the question of "Do you want this assured card, or risk a top deck" which is the case of the Scarab as it's slightly overcosted but also assures a specific draw... Though once again Flashback and Unearth make Dredge a little stronger because all of a sudden "Woops, Graveshell is now a 3/3 for 3 or itself."

    ===================

    I actually like Landfall and I think they can make it better and more refined in the future. We've had landfall in the past (Vinelasher and that Dryad), though it's not a mechanic you can really abuse... Cobra is probably the most abusable Landfall card that you could print, but that doesn't mean you can't make solid cards with a very bland Landfall trigger that you play for the card and Landfall is simply a bit of extra.

    ====================
    Infect is inherently bad in the sense that it took a good mechanic and ruined it... It's a prime example of the saying "If it isn't broken, don't fix it.", but MaRo is a troll and needs to make players sad pandas with his stupid gimmicks.

    I absolutely hate Poison as a mechanic personally.
  • #276
    pro white
    pro red
    is black.
    first strike
    infect
    lets see here thats 1, 2, 3, yes 4abilities.
    on a 2/2 body thats black.
    that should be what, say uhm maybe 4, probably 5 mana back in the good ol days.

    it's crazy and just what infect needs to boost it.
    saying this is not a auto include in any infect deck is just stupid.
    it's got evasion and can stay on the battlefield no prob right now in standard.
    only problem is infect, which means it's only good for infect decks which are not hot right now (tier 1 wise), but i'm sure with the rest of the spoilers and upcoming expansion ( new phyrexia or pure) , that won't be an issue.

    aside note.

    we sometimes forget it only takes 10 poison counters to win.

    so any creature can effectively be considered to be double it's power when it has infect due to only needing 10 counters to win, as to the normal 20 you chase without infect/poison.

    so in reality when it hits a opponent, it's sure taking 2 poison counters, but in reality when compared to a same creature with out infect it would be 4 damage. so that's a 4/2 body when determining how much it takes to kill a person.

    or for the mentally challenged, 5 hits with this guy unbuffed you die. vs 10 with non infect. so a 4/2 creature for 3 that's black with pro red pro white first strike. druullllrgrlg.
  • #277
    Quote from Emporer_Ashram

    we sometimes forget it only takes 10 poison counters to win.

    so any creature can effectively be considered to be double it's power when it has infect due to only needing 10 counters to win, as to the normal 20 you chase without infect/poison.

    so in reality when it hits a opponent, it's sure taking 2 poison counters, but in reality when compared to a same creature with out infect it would be 4 damage. so that's a 4/2 body when determining how much it takes to kill a person.

    or for the mentally challenged, 5 hits with this guy unbuffed you die. vs 10 with non infect. so a 4/2 creature for 3 that's black with pro red pro white first strike. druullllrgrlg.


    It has been said multiple times on this thread already.
    That fact is why these are technically 'mirror' cards, because the white one has double strike, ALSO a 4/2 effectively.
    News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com

    Twitter
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes