I... I see. Well, that's just sucks. So, basically the game uses last known information, but only checks 1 specific thing, not everything about the creature? Got it.
You might still be misunderstanding.
What else is there to check? Modular says to check one specific thing: the number of +1/+1 counters on that creature. Nothing can change the number of +1/+1 counters on an object except for a +1/+1 counter on that object.
The creature satisfies death conditions right after the damage is dealt. It is a 0/0 with two +1/+1 and two -1/-1 counters on it. (I mean, it *was* just a 2/2 and had 2 damage dealt to it; but instead of 2 damage marked on it, it acquired -1/-1 counters.)
But, the killing of this creature, and the annihilation of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters, are the same kind of thing, a state-based action, and they happen at the same time.
The meaning of removing counters from something leaving the battlefield is open, philosophically, since that kinda happens anyway. Thankfully, nothing in the game yet cares about such details, so there's no actual 'hole' in "the truth of the matter." It's clear that at the last moment, there are +1/+1 counters on the permanent. There is no permanent which lacks the +1/+1 counters and hasn't left the battlefield yet but is identical with the one with modular.
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I haven't read 32 pages of comments, but I've read Mark Rosewater's posts on twitter, and if he says that Infect is not strictly better than Whiter is because the opponent will be able to use the poison counters against you. It would be great if they also made cards that poison yourself so that you can use poison counters as a resource.
It also means creatures with Infect will rarely go over 2 in Power. It only takes 10 counters for a kill.
As much as I think this is a nice idea, Poison is a serious threat in EDH and other slower formats. I feel R&D is making a mistake on this, as it will go one of two ways:
Creatures with Infect are poorly costed, and unplayed in any format outside of Limited (if at all).
Creatures with Infect are solid beaters, and the slower formats suffer from the mechanic's existence.
If they really did plan on combatting -1/-1 with +1/+1, then it'd be sweet to see them bust out the Modular. Sunburst would be ideal (although it would have been better to bring back in Conflux), but Modular would make for fun combat choices.
My fingers are crossed Modular returns,My Steel overseers would love it
For infect to be viable in my mind there would need to be some sort of reasonably priced enchantment that said at the begining of your upkeep give target player a poison counter. Or at the begining of your upkeep put a poison counter on each player with a poison counter.
Or something Bazar trader could interact with that normaly gave you a poison counter. I would love to see something that made all damage dealt infected damage. Infect and Firstrike = sick
so lets say there is a red spell that deals 5 damage with infect and you have out Fire Servant thats gg? or 4 damage and have 2 from another source.
I feel R&D is making a mistake on this, as it will go one of two ways:
Creatures with Infect are poorly costed, and unplayed in any format outside of Limited (if at all).
Creatures with Infect are solid beaters, and the slower formats suffer from the mechanic's existence.
I don't see any inherent reason that has to be true, though. All the tools available for balancing regular aggro creatures (besides lifegain) still exist for balancing Infect creatures. I don't see any reason that Infect would innately be incapable of falling in the middle between "overpowered" and "underpowered."
Not to mention you can make equivalent "lifegain" for poison as well. Either by implementing some sort of way to increase the number of counters you need to lose, or by removing the counters.
I don't see any inherent reason that has to be true, though. All the tools available for balancing regular aggro creatures (besides lifegain) still exist for balancing Infect creatures. I don't see any reason that Infect would innately be incapable of falling in the middle between "overpowered" and "underpowered."
Except I play in EDH mainly, and that format has no rules for Poison (one of the major alternate win conditions).
Take a look at the basic win mechs in that format:
Mill
Damage
Auto-Win cards
Poison
All of those effects have a rule that alters the way you play that win condition except for poison. Mill has to go through 92 cards to get a win (instead of 53). Damage can be outpaced by Lifegain, but Genera Damage circumvents that. Auto-Win cards are restricted in use (Door to Nothingness can't be run in any deck that isn't 5 color, etc).
But Poison still needs only 10 counters to win you the match. This is fine and dandy is Standard (where it effectively translates into 2 damage/counter), but in EDH or Two-Headed Giant, the effects of Poison are nearly doubled (instead of translating into 2/counter, it's 4/counter). This makes the mechanic that much more powerful.
To put this more simply, Virulent Sliver goes from being an effective 2/1 for G to being a 4/1 for G in EDH. This is a bit strong, but because it's the only creature that has this ability (ignoring it's Sliver status). But let's say they introduce a 1/1 with Infect for a B. That's another 4/1 for EDH to worry about. Because Infect translates Power into Poison counters, any bonuses are effectively quadrupled against the player because of the mechanic. So let's say they make a 4/4 creature with Infect and Trample. That's a single card that acts as a 3 turn clock that you can't recover from (you have to use Leeches to mess with those counters).
So let's say they make this 4/4 Trampler (not saying they will). Let's say someone gets it out in EDH, and you take a hit. If it didn't have Infect, you could just play a Loxodon Hierarch/Tendrils of Corruption/etc to recover the damage. But you can't do that with Infect. You can't remove those counters without using a really crappy card (and it's the only card that works on Poison).
Since Infect is presumably Phyrexian in nature, it's very likely that this theoretical 4/4 Trample+Infect would be B. This means they can just get it back and hit you with it again, and the only way to stop the Poison counters is to Exile the creature itself before it deals damage. And once it's hit you, you can't undo the effects like you can normal damage. This is a keyword, so we know that there will be more than just 2 creatures with the ability. So let's say someone builds a deck around this ability.
All of a sudden, that 40 life you have in EDH means nothing to that player. And there's nothing you can do about it if you aren't playing at least partially Wand are running a really bad card.
That's my complaint. There needs to be another way to get rid of Poison counters, a way that all of the colors can use without needing to completely retool their decks to do so. Something like a rule that let's you transfer counters from yourself to a Planeswalker you control (in exchange for removing Loyalty), not a spell.
Sinfire: If that is your concern, can you not simply change the number of Poison counters to 'win' in EDH to 20? If the life total doubles in EDH, why should not Poison? Really, this only makes sense.
I'll also point out that, while EDH is at least on R&D's radar, I hope that any single format does not dominate the methods and philosophy that R&D uses to choose mechanics. (This includes Standard, Limited, and others, as well as EDH.) Since the rules operate differently in EDH (cf. the life total change), the proper place to address any imbalance with Infect in EDH is also the rules. Don't change design because the mechanic doesn't work in a format with different rules.
Sinfire: If that is your concern, can you not simply change the number of Poison counters to 'win' in EDH to 20? If the life total doubles in EDH, why should not Poison? Really, this only makes sense.
I'll also point out that, while EDH is at least on R&D's radar, I hope that any single format does not dominate the methods and philosophy that R&D uses to choose mechanics. (This includes Standard, Limited, and others, as well as EDH.) Since the rules operate differently in EDH (cf. the life total change), the proper place to address any imbalance with Infect in EDH is also the rules. Don't change design because the mechanic doesn't work in a format with different rules.
Because I don't make the rules, and our playgroup is adamant about the recommended rules.
It's isn't just EDH: It's 2- and 3-Headed Giant along with every format out there where your life total is something other than 20. Especially in the Giant formats, where you are able to run more than one of each creature with Infect.
Sinfire: But that's the point. Do you not think that they realized this? Before Scars, in almost every format, a Poison win was essentially a combo deck based around Virulent Sliver. Now, we have a very viable win condition (presumably) with Poison counters.
Since there is now an issue (which I fully agree with) with EDH and other formats, it makes sense that the rules change to ensure that the environments stay in a similar place relative to the others.
Also, while we have hints that there won't be a whole lot of cards that will remove poison counters, those are only hints. Therefore, I think it's slight hyperbole to state that the only method to 'deal with' poison in EDH and other places is to run Leeches.
In the end, there are numerous ways to handle this difficulty. One is to deliberately underpower the mechanic so that EDH and other formats don't suffer from it, in which case the mechanic won't be used at all in more... aggressive formats. Another is to ignore EDH, which I don't think they'll do. A final one is to use EDH-specific rules to ensure compliance with non-EDH formats, which to me is the simplest case to implement.
I will note that if there are 'cards with poison drawbacks' in Scars, this might be an issue, as they probably don't scale well. But then, there is a similar issue with life loss cards in EDH already, is there not?
Except I play in EDH mainly, and that format has no rules for Poison (one of the major alternate win conditions).
1. There will still be not as many infect cards as regular damage cards. Since EDH has a H in its name there may be a limit as to how dedicated a poison deck can be in the format.
2. In theory there is nothing in the way of adjusting the poison total for EDH if necessary.
Yes, rules can change. Or cards can get banned. Or decks can use adjustments.
You can't remove those counters without using a really crappy card (and it's the only card that works on Poison).
Where do you have the full spoiler of SoM block from and why do waste time not spoiling some cards to us?
You know what the difference between proactive and reactive is? Of the two types you are the one whining about things you don't possibly fully comprehend.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
You know what the difference between proactive and reactive is? Of the two types you are the one whining about things you don't possibly fully comprehend.
I'm being theoretical here. Sue me.
Therefore, I think it's slight hyperbole to state that the only method to 'deal with' poison in EDH and other places is to run Leeches.
I know, but until we see the full spoiler we have no way of knowing if we will get more ways of interacting with Poison counters or not. There are no other cards currently in circulation that remove Poison counters from players. Sway of the Stars doesn't help, Blessed Wind doesn't help, even the anti-Counter card (Aether Snap) doesn't help.
In a nutshell, there better be more ways to delay poison counters than we currently have, or the Infect mechanic will draw major hate from the Multiplayer formats.
Sin: Or they change the rules for some formats. After all, you are referring to formats where the rules have already been changed.
And it's not 'multiplayer' so much as 'formats in which the starting life total has changed', correct? I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with Infect in FFA Multiplayer, is there?
I'll also point out that 'not seeing the full spoiler' should point towards not making a statement either way, should it not? You can assert 'there are no cards to deal with Poison in Scars' (which is essentially what you said before), and I can assert 'there are cards to deal with Poison in Scars', and it is meaningless and not conducive to a discussion.
I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with Infect in FFA Multiplayer, is there?
From a community standpoint? Probably not. From a personal standpoint? I'm going to target anyone with an Infect-heavy deck with extreme prejudice like I normally do with any aggro deck. Only twice as much hate. Poison was a mechanic I don't like losing to. Like LD or Discard.
so... The old poison creatures dealt damage to opponents AND added 1/more poison counters, but now they ONLY add poison counters? Seems pretty bad, since mixing infect/non-infect creatures seems pretty pointless. "Oh, you're at 2 life, have no poison counters, and all I have out is this 2/2 infect guy... well guess I'll swing. 2 counters." >(
All of those effects have a rule that alters the way you play that win condition except for poison.
Which is why it's the EDH rules committee's job to create a new format-specific rule that addresses this issue if the mechanic proves broken there. EDH has chosen to hang its hat on a set of base rules (higher lifetotal, larger deck, etc.) that differ from the core rules used in basically every other Magic format, and so it's not R&D's job to watch out for those interactions when they print new sets.
This is no different from the Felidar Sovereign issue. R&D knew full well that the card would be bonkers in EDH but they printed it anyway due to its value as an AWC in other formats; since EDH has an active rules committee who play the format themselves, R&D can rely on them taking the necessary action to fix up the format whenever new cards and mechanics upset the balance there.
I don't see any inherent reason that has to be true, though. All the tools available for balancing regular aggro creatures (besides lifegain) still exist for balancing Infect creatures. I don't see any reason that Infect would innately be incapable of falling in the middle between "overpowered" and "underpowered."
Hey, maybe they'll print insanely good lifegain in this block because it will be contextually even more unplayable.
Fingers crossed for the one mana gain 12 spell, everyone?
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I love wither but I am going to have to admit that I hate poison. I am not a fan of too linear mechanics and to play poison creatures you really have to play a poison deck. No reason to swing with a creature without poison and one with it. So poison doesn't add to the creature diversity, it says play with only me or none of me. Thats boring. And poor lifegain decks. Lifegain gets hate with mill and poison. Sure mill isn't that viable but when you run into one with a lifegain deck you shed a tear lol.
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You might still be misunderstanding.
What else is there to check? Modular says to check one specific thing: the number of +1/+1 counters on that creature. Nothing can change the number of +1/+1 counters on an object except for a +1/+1 counter on that object.
The creature satisfies death conditions right after the damage is dealt. It is a 0/0 with two +1/+1 and two -1/-1 counters on it. (I mean, it *was* just a 2/2 and had 2 damage dealt to it; but instead of 2 damage marked on it, it acquired -1/-1 counters.)
But, the killing of this creature, and the annihilation of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters, are the same kind of thing, a state-based action, and they happen at the same time.
The meaning of removing counters from something leaving the battlefield is open, philosophically, since that kinda happens anyway. Thankfully, nothing in the game yet cares about such details, so there's no actual 'hole' in "the truth of the matter." It's clear that at the last moment, there are +1/+1 counters on the permanent. There is no permanent which lacks the +1/+1 counters and hasn't left the battlefield yet but is identical with the one with modular.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
It also means creatures with Infect will rarely go over 2 in Power. It only takes 10 counters for a kill.
As much as I think this is a nice idea, Poison is a serious threat in EDH and other slower formats. I feel R&D is making a mistake on this, as it will go one of two ways:
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
My fingers are crossed Modular returns,My Steel overseers would love it
Or something Bazar trader could interact with that normaly gave you a poison counter. I would love to see something that made all damage dealt infected damage. Infect and Firstrike = sick
so lets say there is a red spell that deals 5 damage with infect and you have out Fire Servant thats gg? or 4 damage and have 2 from another source.
I don't see any inherent reason that has to be true, though. All the tools available for balancing regular aggro creatures (besides lifegain) still exist for balancing Infect creatures. I don't see any reason that Infect would innately be incapable of falling in the middle between "overpowered" and "underpowered."
Except I play in EDH mainly, and that format has no rules for Poison (one of the major alternate win conditions).
Take a look at the basic win mechs in that format:
All of those effects have a rule that alters the way you play that win condition except for poison. Mill has to go through 92 cards to get a win (instead of 53). Damage can be outpaced by Lifegain, but Genera Damage circumvents that. Auto-Win cards are restricted in use (Door to Nothingness can't be run in any deck that isn't 5 color, etc).
But Poison still needs only 10 counters to win you the match. This is fine and dandy is Standard (where it effectively translates into 2 damage/counter), but in EDH or Two-Headed Giant, the effects of Poison are nearly doubled (instead of translating into 2/counter, it's 4/counter). This makes the mechanic that much more powerful.
To put this more simply, Virulent Sliver goes from being an effective 2/1 for G to being a 4/1 for G in EDH. This is a bit strong, but because it's the only creature that has this ability (ignoring it's Sliver status). But let's say they introduce a 1/1 with Infect for a B. That's another 4/1 for EDH to worry about. Because Infect translates Power into Poison counters, any bonuses are effectively quadrupled against the player because of the mechanic. So let's say they make a 4/4 creature with Infect and Trample. That's a single card that acts as a 3 turn clock that you can't recover from (you have to use Leeches to mess with those counters).
So let's say they make this 4/4 Trampler (not saying they will). Let's say someone gets it out in EDH, and you take a hit. If it didn't have Infect, you could just play a Loxodon Hierarch/Tendrils of Corruption/etc to recover the damage. But you can't do that with Infect. You can't remove those counters without using a really crappy card (and it's the only card that works on Poison).
Since Infect is presumably Phyrexian in nature, it's very likely that this theoretical 4/4 Trample+Infect would be B. This means they can just get it back and hit you with it again, and the only way to stop the Poison counters is to Exile the creature itself before it deals damage. And once it's hit you, you can't undo the effects like you can normal damage. This is a keyword, so we know that there will be more than just 2 creatures with the ability. So let's say someone builds a deck around this ability.
All of a sudden, that 40 life you have in EDH means nothing to that player. And there's nothing you can do about it if you aren't playing at least partially W and are running a really bad card.
That's my complaint. There needs to be another way to get rid of Poison counters, a way that all of the colors can use without needing to completely retool their decks to do so. Something like a rule that let's you transfer counters from yourself to a Planeswalker you control (in exchange for removing Loyalty), not a spell.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
I'll also point out that, while EDH is at least on R&D's radar, I hope that any single format does not dominate the methods and philosophy that R&D uses to choose mechanics. (This includes Standard, Limited, and others, as well as EDH.) Since the rules operate differently in EDH (cf. the life total change), the proper place to address any imbalance with Infect in EDH is also the rules. Don't change design because the mechanic doesn't work in a format with different rules.
Because I don't make the rules, and our playgroup is adamant about the recommended rules.
It's isn't just EDH: It's 2- and 3-Headed Giant along with every format out there where your life total is something other than 20. Especially in the Giant formats, where you are able to run more than one of each creature with Infect.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Since there is now an issue (which I fully agree with) with EDH and other formats, it makes sense that the rules change to ensure that the environments stay in a similar place relative to the others.
Also, while we have hints that there won't be a whole lot of cards that will remove poison counters, those are only hints. Therefore, I think it's slight hyperbole to state that the only method to 'deal with' poison in EDH and other places is to run Leeches.
In the end, there are numerous ways to handle this difficulty. One is to deliberately underpower the mechanic so that EDH and other formats don't suffer from it, in which case the mechanic won't be used at all in more... aggressive formats. Another is to ignore EDH, which I don't think they'll do. A final one is to use EDH-specific rules to ensure compliance with non-EDH formats, which to me is the simplest case to implement.
I will note that if there are 'cards with poison drawbacks' in Scars, this might be an issue, as they probably don't scale well. But then, there is a similar issue with life loss cards in EDH already, is there not?
1. There will still be not as many infect cards as regular damage cards. Since EDH has a H in its name there may be a limit as to how dedicated a poison deck can be in the format.
2. In theory there is nothing in the way of adjusting the poison total for EDH if necessary.
Yes, rules can change. Or cards can get banned. Or decks can use adjustments.
Where do you have the full spoiler of SoM block from and why do waste time not spoiling some cards to us?
You know what the difference between proactive and reactive is? Of the two types you are the one whining about things you don't possibly fully comprehend.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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I'm being theoretical here. Sue me.
I know, but until we see the full spoiler we have no way of knowing if we will get more ways of interacting with Poison counters or not. There are no other cards currently in circulation that remove Poison counters from players. Sway of the Stars doesn't help, Blessed Wind doesn't help, even the anti-Counter card (Aether Snap) doesn't help.
In a nutshell, there better be more ways to delay poison counters than we currently have, or the Infect mechanic will draw major hate from the Multiplayer formats.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
And it's not 'multiplayer' so much as 'formats in which the starting life total has changed', correct? I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with Infect in FFA Multiplayer, is there?
I'll also point out that 'not seeing the full spoiler' should point towards not making a statement either way, should it not? You can assert 'there are no cards to deal with Poison in Scars' (which is essentially what you said before), and I can assert 'there are cards to deal with Poison in Scars', and it is meaningless and not conducive to a discussion.
From a community standpoint? Probably not. From a personal standpoint? I'm going to target anyone with an Infect-heavy deck with extreme prejudice like I normally do with any aggro deck. Only twice as much hate. Poison was a mechanic I don't like losing to. Like LD or Discard.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Which is why it's the EDH rules committee's job to create a new format-specific rule that addresses this issue if the mechanic proves broken there. EDH has chosen to hang its hat on a set of base rules (higher lifetotal, larger deck, etc.) that differ from the core rules used in basically every other Magic format, and so it's not R&D's job to watch out for those interactions when they print new sets.
This is no different from the Felidar Sovereign issue. R&D knew full well that the card would be bonkers in EDH but they printed it anyway due to its value as an AWC in other formats; since EDH has an active rules committee who play the format themselves, R&D can rely on them taking the necessary action to fix up the format whenever new cards and mechanics upset the balance there.
Hey, maybe they'll print insanely good lifegain in this block because it will be contextually even more unplayable.
Fingers crossed for the one mana gain 12 spell, everyone?
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
They aren't going to reprint StP for Standard play just because you want to hit Kozilek with it.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
*Cue Speculation Thread 'z0mg0rz StP in SoM!'*
Brofaux: We have hints from MaRo that it won't be easy (if possible) to remove Poison counters.
Multicolored millcards in something other than dimir.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
I believe it was me. (02/2009)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3651686&postcount=99
"I think that its possible that they will make poison counters that affect creatures instead of players or both."
It's funny that someone say that it will be like wither a few posts later.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3653357&postcount=117
"This is too close to Wither to happen...."