It's new block time, it's time for the 3rd stage of Mythic abuse. Yes, it's all about the Mythics, if powerful (or broken) enough they can sell sets by themselves, since for 1 player wanting to be fully competetive a whole 480 packs of every large set need to be opened, even if the set contained just 1 uber Mythic must-have-4-of-everywhere and all other cards are practically blanks. Still 480 packs per player. So... I'm talking about all this here because the rarity abuse allows Wizards can produce almost anything, they can even fill those Event Decks with playsets of many different Rares, completely ruining their secondary market values and still not hurt their pack sales. The key is making that second coming of Jitte or Mox that everyone will need 4 of at Mythic and packs will just sell. You know what direction Magic was going in the last 2 years - I don't see them turning back but going even further the same way.
Wow; you all are impressively negative about something Six Months away that we know almost nothing about. This is sort of like complaining about how Mirroden Besieged will Ruin The Game Forever!
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Whoever's saying that these won't have any 4 of's, I highly doubt it. Wizards knows that nearly every competitive deck ever has had multiple 4 ofs, or at the VERY least, 3 ofs, and I don't think Wizards would lie to players saying "This deck, made entirely out of 1 and 2 ofs, COULD BE COMPETITIVE!" And there are plenty of "need 4 of", playable rares wizards could afford to throw in, like Honor of the Pure and Ball Lightning.
I expect that, in the hands of a skilled pilot, these would most likely go 2-3 in a five round FNM.
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Although always playing a deck I think is fun, I'm also always trying to win the tournament.
Currently playing: M13 Draft GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD) GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
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Occasional Player? Hold on, because we're sending a Level 3 judge over to your house to kick you in the balls right now! -With Love, WOTC
People tend to think that these are going be crazy Standard decks. I am under the impression that this just means a stronger variant of a precon, with common and uncommon standard staples, plus decent rares. If anything, though, it is just the natural evolution of a precon. Basically, it is a precon with relevant cards in it.
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Central New York gamers: Convene at Mind Games, in Oneida, at the "Papa" Pete Phillips gaming room.
I'm the idiot who spammed wikipedia adding the 120 scar cards crap that people started making fake purple cards with. I dun goof'd.
Let's get the elephant out of the room. Are these going to have MythicS (emphasis on S) in them? If not, I'd advise prospective buyers to donate their Game Day entrance fee to a worthwhile charity and just hang around instead.
Is there any chance of them putting staples like Jace 2.0, Vengevine, or even Fauna Shaman in these decks, even as 1-ofs? Maybe I'm being optimistic, but could this be their way of trying to quell the mythic problem, or more precisely, the "lack of Jace 2.0" problem?
Putting 1 of a staple rare into these decks might encourage people to buy packs to acquire more of them.
Is there any chance of them putting staples like Jace 2.0, Vengevine, or even Fauna Shaman in these decks, even as 1-ofs? Maybe I'm being optimistic, but could this be their way of trying to quell the mythic problem, or more precisely, the "lack of Jace 2.0" problem?
Putting 1 of a staple rare into these decks might encourage people to buy packs to acquire more of them.
It will also make LGS's jack up the prices of these decks(see the rat's nest deck with Urmezawa's Jitte and that one Green theme deck with Eternal Witness.
Anywho I like this and if they can make quality theme decks like Sidestep from the lowyrn block then I'll pick up some.
This has happened before and doesn't work. The Rat's Nest precon from Kamigawa had Umezawa's Jitte in when it was selling at £20.
All that happens is professional traders buy up as many as they can from stores at MRSP and then sell them for the price of the single.
If these decks were £20 but had Jace the Mind Sculptor in, traders would buy them from shops and sell them for £50 each.
Maybe Wizards should invest in producing a traders company so they can set the price of the cards and sell directly to customers. They would still make their booster sales out of limited, casual and sealed play and it would probably be a massive success.
So...what? These alleged traders have a hold on all precons sold at Toys'r'us and Target? What's stopping me, average magic player that wants to pick up some cheap staples, from waltzing into Target and buying these myself?
I would have a hard time believing that it would be impossible or nearly impossible to find a precon at MSRP if there was a jace 2.0 inside.
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Although always playing a deck I think is fun, I'm also always trying to win the tournament.
Currently playing: M13 Draft GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD) GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Quote from Jon Finkel »
Occasional Player? Hold on, because we're sending a Level 3 judge over to your house to kick you in the balls right now! -With Love, WOTC
This sounds like something geared towards places that do FNM and game days, so I don't think these will be sent to the Wal-Marts of the world.
I too live in an area where enough people that go to the FNM's that use it as practice for the bigger events and therefore there is a LOT of netdecking there with just as many 500$+ decks showing up.
If these just end up being half shoddy pre-cons then they will be rather crappy. Only way to really do this is make them a gold bordered deck that can only be used at these small events and not usable at PTQ's and larger events. Then you can put whatever you want in them.
I have no issue with these decks...it allows an affordable entry point to the casual player. However if they built the intro packs better there would be no need for these.
This is a great idea, in my opinon. First I like that they are including a sideboard. Despite the majority of magic to be casual and played without one, it's hard to teach people about them if the company-sponsored decks don't have them! Second, I like the tone. This product is for spikes and not just any spikes but the acquisition of new spike players. Releasing them right when a new set is released makes sense (since most people won't have the new cards, if they want to play in an event and they haven't bought any of the latest set they can instead get one of these and tweak their decks).
I'm guessing the price point to be higher than an intro pack but lower than a duel deck. Say, $15. But if they are chock full of rares (and mythics?!) maybe the full $20 like a duel deck. Which is still reasonable! People would often buy 2 precons ($20) to build a deck for FNM.
When I got back into MTG around Future Sight I went to my first FNM with a deck I had created out of 2 Boros precons. I went 3-1 loosing to U/G control in a close match. If these decks are anything like that then nobody will cry about it.
Other than "legal proxies" I don't see how this is a sustainable product without them intentionally putting more good cards at uncommon.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
There's nothing intelligent to say about these until we see the deck lists. It would be nice to see them reprint Jace, the Mind Sculptor or something similar like Gideon Jura or even Day of Judgment but I don't see that happening.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause!
Famliy Guy Emperor Says,
"Something, something something, DARK SIDE!
Something, something, something COMPLETE!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHiUitciuJ8
:symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw: SPIKE GAYMER: not just a beatdown, a beatdown sung to the tune of "I Feel Pretty"!
I wonder if there will initially be two Event Decks, one Mirrodin affiliated and one for Phyrexia. The "just in time for Mirrodin Besieged Game Day" makes me think WotC might be trying to get a big turn out of affiliated decks for the MBS Game Day (like with SOM Game Day, perhaps the MBS Game Day will have preview cards for the next set to the top affiliated decks).
@nickolai: they never said you'd take worlds with these decks. They're talking FNM. You can easily go to FNM with a well-built deck that cost you no more than 30$
...and go 1-3? Or if you get paired well, 2-2?
I don't know what FNM is like in France, but I've been to many different locations here and the field is like 80% composed of UW control/Jund/RG Valakut-Ramp/Fauna Naya/Mythic in every store, without variation.
FNM's are not filled with new players and weak decks any more. The standard of the average magic player has increased significantly and FNM is usually used as a friendly way to test a deck.
Correct. But WotC either doesn't realize this is won't admit it.
These "Grab and Go" decks will be similar to the Intro packs but more finely tuned. No preconstructed deck released by Wizards will ever have more than one copy of a single rare card. Therefore there will likely be 2 or 3 singleton rares and combined with a slew of more useful common and uncommon cards in multiple (ie playset) quantities.
The cards will not be gold bordered...these would be considered "proxies" if allowed in official events and WotC has gone on record saying that they're never going to allow proxies in sanctioned events.
The decks will likely stand up well to one another but will fold up against the constructed decks that people typically bring to FNM events.
I went to an FNM at a Pretty large convention round here with a deck I built for around £25 (~50) and placed 3rd.
Okay, that's not really fair There were 8 people, 4 of which were new players. It must've been badly publicised.
These decks sound... cash-grabby. There are money-spikes everywhere. Even if they don't play the best game, having better cards does still give them an advantage. When paired against a Better player, who can't afford the same quality of cards, I believe it's comparable to a Man with a pistol, going up against a Blindfolded guy with a Minigun. He'll just shoot randomly.
Can the guy with the pistol win? Yeah, but it'll be REALLY hard.
Wotc SAY that these things will be competitive, but how can they really know? Meta is a HUGE factor in determining winning decks. And besides that, they're most likely NOT gonna start selling decks with 12+ Rare lands for $19.99. That would just be silly. Even if they were Gold bordered, it'd just feel like a cop-out answer for all the other players, who WANT to innovate, but have to drop $$$ to buy the tools, whilst an average player can buy a reasonable deck for A weeks allowance.
Nice try Wotc. Really. I admire you for what you're trying, but unless you print everything at common, there will always be people who can't afford to get in.
When has the format's most desirable card not been a mythic in the past 12 months?
I'm pretty sure Lightning Bolt has seen more play in the last 12 months than any single mythic. Hell, it may have seen more play than any two mythics combined.
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I'm the idiot who spammed wikipedia adding the 120 scar cards crap that people started making fake purple cards with. I dun goof'd.
I don't know what FNM is like in France, but I've been to many different locations here and the field is like 80% composed of UW control/Jund/RG Valakut-Ramp/Fauna Naya/Mythic in every store, without variation.
You can build a FNM level competitive deck without blowing the bank. look Ill do a titan less Valakut-Ramp right now.
Thats about $20-30 worth of cards at most. Could you make that deck better by adding more $$$, no question, but I think you could still win a few rounds with a deck like that. Honestly if these decks are aimed at new players why not give them precons that encourage good deck building.
A friend of mine decided to try the game for the first time a few months ago so we went out and picked up the m10 WW precon and he was like "cool, so are we good to go" and I was like "goodish, now lets pick up these 20 commons/uncommons so your deck wont be horrible." It would be nice not to have to do that.
I went to an FNM at a Pretty large convention round here with a deck I built for around £25 (~50) and placed 3rd.
Okay, that's not really fair There were 8 people, 4 of which were new players. It must've been badly publicised.
These decks sound... cash-grabby. There are money-spikes everywhere. Even if they don't play the best game, having better cards does still give them an advantage. When paired against a Better player, who can't afford the same quality of cards, I believe it's comparable to a Man with a pistol, going up against a Blindfolded guy with a Minigun. He'll just shoot randomly.
Can the guy with the pistol win? Yeah, but it'll be REALLY hard.
Wotc SAY that these things will be competitive, but how can they really know? Meta is a HUGE factor in determining winning decks. And besides that, they're most likely NOT gonna start selling decks with 12+ Rare lands for $19.99. That would just be silly. Even if they were Gold bordered, it'd just feel like a cop-out answer for all the other players, who WANT to innovate, but have to drop $$$ to buy the tools, whilst an average player can buy a reasonable deck for A weeks allowance.
Nice try Wotc. Really. I admire you for what you're trying, but unless you print everything at common, there will always be people who can't afford to get in.
But, "all but the manabase" decks aren't wrong. That's how I started, and you can just live and die by running hot and cold with your manabase. It's not the stone worst.
I think that you have to see what these decklists look like before passing judgment. If it's mostly 4-ofs, with good uncommons/commons/rares, I don't think there's an issue. For example, White Weenie with 3-4x Honor of the Pure is, while not optimal, a "real" deck. A reasonable RDW with no rares is plausible. I want well established old-school archetypes: Green Beatz, Red Sligh, White Weenies, Blue Counters, Black Discard...
Even if those particular archetypes aren't competitive in the full meta, something which plays smoothly and has good nut draws can finish with a winning record in all the FNMs I've been to, even if winning might feel out of reach.
What I would be disappointed by are decks which are 1-2 ofs, and just chock full with limited fodder.
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Be they worthy or just plain riff-raff, my warhead shall punish all without distinction. -Rip Van Winkle
I'm pretty sure Lightning Bolt has seen more play in the last 12 months than any single mythic. Hell, it may have seen more play than any two mythics combined.
First off, he said desirable. I would rather play Jace than lightning bolt. I would rather have a jace than a lightning bolt.
Secondly, overall you may be correct, but the last three months has seen more Jaces than bolts in t8ing decks. For the record, the top five cards, not including basic lands.
First off, he said desirable. I would rather play Jace than lightning bolt. I would rather have a jace than a lightning bolt.
Secondly, overall you may be correct, but the last three months has seen more Jaces than bolts in t8ing decks. For the record, the top five cards, not including basic lands.
and overall this standard:
Jace, the first mythic on the list, is #14. The first nonland rare is Maelstrom Pulse, at 7.
I disagree: I feel that Lightning Bolt is a better card than Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
But regardless, you've shown that over the last 12 months, the top 13 cards have been non-mythic.
Asking which cards are most desirable is, of course, going to bring up the rarer cards, simply because less people have them. But that has always existed throughout Magic's history: rare cards are more desired, even if they are not better, than common cards.
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I'm the idiot who spammed wikipedia adding the 120 scar cards crap that people started making fake purple cards with. I dun goof'd.
I like this and depending on the quality of the decks, I may get some myself. They will probably be budget decks that the Development team found were able to keep their footing in regular play. I am somewhat confused as why people are criticizing the playability of the decks they yet to see. Obviously, it is great for new players. It helps them get into the game and start learning what is needed to win early on.
This is not to say that I think they will have 8 rares and a mostly non-basic manabase, but the decks will be better than the decks I see many people play at FNM based on the claim made by Wizards.
As for the idea that it will kill creativity, there was very little to lose. MaRo pointed out in his article today that an idea without proper execution is worthless. No matter how many ideas an inexperienced player has for a deck, 99% of them will be close to worthless as most inexperienced players don't have the cards nor the knowledge to make a competitive deck either way.
Using a good, preconstructed deck teaches what I consider the most important lesson of deckbuilding for competitive play. The best way to make a good competitive deck is to copy and refine. This is especially true for new players (and also for most players who have trouble topping a PTQ.)
I expect that, in the hands of a skilled pilot, these would most likely go 2-3 in a five round FNM.
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Level 2 Judge
Let's get the elephant out of the room. Are these going to have MythicS (emphasis on S) in them? If not, I'd advise prospective buyers to donate their Game Day entrance fee to a worthwhile charity and just hang around instead.
Putting 1 of a staple rare into these decks might encourage people to buy packs to acquire more of them.
BRG Kresh the Bloodbraided GRB
(81% foil)
It will also make LGS's jack up the prices of these decks(see the rat's nest deck with Urmezawa's Jitte and that one Green theme deck with Eternal Witness.
Anywho I like this and if they can make quality theme decks like Sidestep from the lowyrn block then I'll pick up some.
So...what? These alleged traders have a hold on all precons sold at Toys'r'us and Target? What's stopping me, average magic player that wants to pick up some cheap staples, from waltzing into Target and buying these myself?
I would have a hard time believing that it would be impossible or nearly impossible to find a precon at MSRP if there was a jace 2.0 inside.
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
I too live in an area where enough people that go to the FNM's that use it as practice for the bigger events and therefore there is a LOT of netdecking there with just as many 500$+ decks showing up.
If these just end up being half shoddy pre-cons then they will be rather crappy. Only way to really do this is make them a gold bordered deck that can only be used at these small events and not usable at PTQ's and larger events. Then you can put whatever you want in them.
I'm guessing the price point to be higher than an intro pack but lower than a duel deck. Say, $15. But if they are chock full of rares (and mythics?!) maybe the full $20 like a duel deck. Which is still reasonable! People would often buy 2 precons ($20) to build a deck for FNM.
Other than "legal proxies" I don't see how this is a sustainable product without them intentionally putting more good cards at uncommon.
Famliy Guy Emperor Says,
"Something, something something, DARK SIDE!
Something, something, something COMPLETE!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHiUitciuJ8
:symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw::symrw:
SPIKE GAYMER: not just a beatdown, a beatdown sung to the tune of "I Feel Pretty"!
...and go 1-3? Or if you get paired well, 2-2?
I don't know what FNM is like in France, but I've been to many different locations here and the field is like 80% composed of UW control/Jund/RG Valakut-Ramp/Fauna Naya/Mythic in every store, without variation.
Correct. But WotC either doesn't realize this is won't admit it.
These "Grab and Go" decks will be similar to the Intro packs but more finely tuned. No preconstructed deck released by Wizards will ever have more than one copy of a single rare card. Therefore there will likely be 2 or 3 singleton rares and combined with a slew of more useful common and uncommon cards in multiple (ie playset) quantities.
The cards will not be gold bordered...these would be considered "proxies" if allowed in official events and WotC has gone on record saying that they're never going to allow proxies in sanctioned events.
The decks will likely stand up well to one another but will fold up against the constructed decks that people typically bring to FNM events.
Okay, that's not really fair There were 8 people, 4 of which were new players. It must've been badly publicised.
These decks sound... cash-grabby. There are money-spikes everywhere. Even if they don't play the best game, having better cards does still give them an advantage. When paired against a Better player, who can't afford the same quality of cards, I believe it's comparable to a Man with a pistol, going up against a Blindfolded guy with a Minigun. He'll just shoot randomly.
Can the guy with the pistol win? Yeah, but it'll be REALLY hard.
Wotc SAY that these things will be competitive, but how can they really know? Meta is a HUGE factor in determining winning decks. And besides that, they're most likely NOT gonna start selling decks with 12+ Rare lands for $19.99. That would just be silly. Even if they were Gold bordered, it'd just feel like a cop-out answer for all the other players, who WANT to innovate, but have to drop $$$ to buy the tools, whilst an average player can buy a reasonable deck for A weeks allowance.
Nice try Wotc. Really. I admire you for what you're trying, but unless you print everything at common, there will always be people who can't afford to get in.
I'm pretty sure Lightning Bolt has seen more play in the last 12 months than any single mythic. Hell, it may have seen more play than any two mythics combined.
You can build a FNM level competitive deck without blowing the bank. look Ill do a titan less Valakut-Ramp right now.
2x Evolving Wilds
2x Terrimorphic Expanse
4x Forest
4x Valkut
13x Mountain
2x Seige-gang Commander
4x Pilgrim's Eye
4x Ondu Giant
Other Spells (25)
4x Expedition Map
4x Rampant Growth
4x Khalani Heart Expidition
4x Harrow
4x Cultivate
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Comet Storm
Thats about $20-30 worth of cards at most. Could you make that deck better by adding more $$$, no question, but I think you could still win a few rounds with a deck like that. Honestly if these decks are aimed at new players why not give them precons that encourage good deck building.
A friend of mine decided to try the game for the first time a few months ago so we went out and picked up the m10 WW precon and he was like "cool, so are we good to go" and I was like "goodish, now lets pick up these 20 commons/uncommons so your deck wont be horrible." It would be nice not to have to do that.
Currently looking to buy miscut Homelands, (my wife thinks I'm crazy too).
Semper Gumby (Always Flexible)
But, "all but the manabase" decks aren't wrong. That's how I started, and you can just live and die by running hot and cold with your manabase. It's not the stone worst.
I think that you have to see what these decklists look like before passing judgment. If it's mostly 4-ofs, with good uncommons/commons/rares, I don't think there's an issue. For example, White Weenie with 3-4x Honor of the Pure is, while not optimal, a "real" deck. A reasonable RDW with no rares is plausible. I want well established old-school archetypes: Green Beatz, Red Sligh, White Weenies, Blue Counters, Black Discard...
Even if those particular archetypes aren't competitive in the full meta, something which plays smoothly and has good nut draws can finish with a winning record in all the FNMs I've been to, even if winning might feel out of reach.
What I would be disappointed by are decks which are 1-2 ofs, and just chock full with limited fodder.
First off, he said desirable. I would rather play Jace than lightning bolt. I would rather have a jace than a lightning bolt.
Secondly, overall you may be correct, but the last three months has seen more Jaces than bolts in t8ing decks. For the record, the top five cards, not including basic lands.
and overall this standard:
Jace, the first mythic on the list, is #14. The first nonland rare is Maelstrom Pulse, at 7.
I disagree: I feel that Lightning Bolt is a better card than Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
But regardless, you've shown that over the last 12 months, the top 13 cards have been non-mythic.
Asking which cards are most desirable is, of course, going to bring up the rarer cards, simply because less people have them. But that has always existed throughout Magic's history: rare cards are more desired, even if they are not better, than common cards.
This is not to say that I think they will have 8 rares and a mostly non-basic manabase, but the decks will be better than the decks I see many people play at FNM based on the claim made by Wizards.
As for the idea that it will kill creativity, there was very little to lose. MaRo pointed out in his article today that an idea without proper execution is worthless. No matter how many ideas an inexperienced player has for a deck, 99% of them will be close to worthless as most inexperienced players don't have the cards nor the knowledge to make a competitive deck either way.
Using a good, preconstructed deck teaches what I consider the most important lesson of deckbuilding for competitive play. The best way to make a good competitive deck is to copy and refine. This is especially true for new players (and also for most players who have trouble topping a PTQ.)