The recent rules update features the addition of a new feature to Magic: emblems.
Emblems go in the command zone and have a controller and an ability. That's about it.
The big question this raises is whether they are introducing this so that they can replace "poison counter" with "poison emblem" in SoM, which would make sense since poison counters have always been weird. At the same time, they could not do that if they aren't bringing poison back.
Seems to be a way to fix rules revolving around Elspeth's ultimate, which leaves an effect hanging over the game without any visual indicator. Elspeth can theoretically 'go off' and then be shuffled back in the deck or something, somehow end up totally out of play, but still have her indestructibility clause hanging over the battle for turns to come. This situation leaves open the possibility for just forgetting that it's there, which is bad. So this new mechanic fixes it. I'm curious if they'll produce a physical emblem to correlate to it.
Doesn't seem like the type of effect that will appear on many cards, since it is truly permanent and can't be removed in any way, which is always something they avoid. And so far, it doesn't seem to connect to poison counters in any way.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On MTGO as Protoman.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
As a Judge, I'm really glad of this implementation.
I'm a bit worried about the incrementing terminology a new player has to grasp, but, well, since it's at mythic rarity, we shouldn't worry, should we?
I can't believe they passed up on the chance to make the planeswalker from Bant give you a 'sigil' instead of an 'emblem'.
They did it for the same reason they chose not to make the hybrid symbols little versions of the Ravnica guilds' symbols - because they'll use them again in an environment where the initial striking flavor wouldn't make any sense. That's why "emblem" is preferable to "sigil"
I'm calling it now--within the next year or so, there will be soceries that grant emblems, but only at mythic rarity.
It will likely be spoiled by Rosewater and come with a free ham-handed explanation on how "This sort of effect is so rare that it only has appeared on one of our rarest level of cards, so it makes sense to keep it at our rarest rarity."
Whenever Stigma Lasher deals damage to a player, that player gets an emblem with "This player can't gain life."
When Cyclopean Tomb is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you get an emblem with "At the beginning your upkeep, remove all mire counters from a land that a mire counter was put onto with Cyclopean Tomb but that a mire counter has not been removed from with Cyclopean Tomb.
Epic (You get an emblem with "You can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.")
I'm actually glad they did this. I'm so tired of all the "Elspeth's Final" arguments I get into whenever I pop it off. This seals it pretty well.
Since this a "Command Zone" Item, I HIGHLY doubt there will be cards that affect emblems past cards that give emblem based abilities (Such as Elspeth).
I hope that when they print more cards with emblems that they put those in packs like tokens. It would be cool to have a physical printed emblem for Elspeth's ability
seems neat. makes the game state less confusing when concerning effects like elspeths ultimate, with no drawback. im guessing if/when they ever put these out in normal sets past elspeth vs tezzeret theyll print the emblems like they do with tokens. so youll have a chance to get the "official" emblem whenever you open up a pack with the current tips and tricks/token slot. just even rarer than a token though, since they make it sound like theyre not going to print cards that use emblems often. which is understandable, cards that do this kind of stuff are already sort of rare.
Oh I just thought about it. Stigma Lasher should give emblems. "When stigma lasher deals damage to a player that player gets an emblem that says 'you can not gain life'"
Those cards don't need emblems to work... I think Mark Gottlieb explained pretty simply and detailedly the cases which would need the implementation of emblems in the second paragraph:
Quote from Mark Gottlieb »
Elspeth's ultimate is awesome. But it's also very limited. This ability works the way it does because the buff it's granting happens to be indestructibility, and indestructibility is weird. It isn't an ability that's granted to those permanents. It's not a keyword. It doesn't change anything's characteristics. It's just a true thing that affects the game rules. (I believe this would be a little easier to understand if it said "artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands you control can't be destroyed," because then it doesn't look like a keyword, but the word "indestructible" is too cool not to use.)
Anyway, Elspeth works fine. But what if we wanted to do the same kind of ability that granted flying? Or +2/+2? Or shroud? These are things that affect the characteristics of permanents, so they'd affect only what you controlled at the time the ability resolved. Permanents that came in later would be unaffected. Permanents that were affected that your opponents gained control of would retain the bonus. It'd work very differently even though it was worded just like Elspeth.
On an unrelated note, you realize you're a true Melvin when the following lines make you laugh by yourself in front of the PC
Quote from Mark Gottlieb »
For the sake of the last few shreds of my own sanity, let's ignore everything this card does. The only issue here is the card's first reminder text. (Yes, really. Its first reminder text. It has two separate pieces of reminder text.) This reminder text demonstrates, by example, what its text-changing ability does. In Oracle, this was unchanged from the way it appears on the printed card: It let you know that one of your options with Balduvian Shaman's ability could be to change the text "counters black spells" to the text "counters blue spells." Okay ... except that text makes no sense! Not only does it not appear on any Magic card (let alone on a white enchantment, which is all you can affect with Balduvian Shaman's ability), it can't appear on a Magic card. What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? We're replacing that reminder text with a more realistic example (because, as we all know, Balduvian Shaman is all about the realistic game scenarios).
I think this is a very nice way to deal with this crap. I hope this shows up to provide some new design space in the future. My friends who play my cube will be pretty confused at first when seeing these new rules but none of them played when planeswalkers were about and with the new M10 rules so they'll get used to it.
"At the beginning of your upkeep if you control three or more emblems, you win the game"
I think this is a very nice way to deal with this crap. I hope this shows up to provide some new design space in the future. My friends who play my cube will be pretty confused at first when seeing these new rules but none of them played when planeswalkers were about and with the new M10 rules so they'll get used to it.
"At the beginning of your upkeep if you control three or more emblems, you win the game"
really interesting idea, i must say... something like 10 poison counters/fail to draw/etc rules. Definitely new design space.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
By John Avon
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
Personally I have no clue exactly how Emblems are going to be represented. I don't know if it's going to be of any use, and not simply one more rule to remember.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese visual kei heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: http://www.onmyozatheatre.com
There will probably be some sort of card. I mean, otherwise what's the point of the change. If they don't create some sort of physical reminder, you can still forget it's there. I mean, in a tournament setting, you can't sit there saying, "My stuff is indestructable" constantly, because it's something your opponent has to know, you can't try some sort of fake out.
With a physical token type of thing, there's no disputing that your stuff is indestructable. They can just look over at it and know, and if they forget to look, it's their problem.
Oh, and while I think that they will expand on the emblem thing, I wouldn't expect it too much. I mean, it'll be really annoying to have all these emblems active that you can do nothing about. I can see maybe a planeswalker making one every great while, or maybe some ridiculously over costed spell for something little, like draw 2 cards a turn or something.
A sensible move by Wizards, had the Elspeth problem myself a couple of times.
But what made me laugh out loud is poison using the command zone. Please. Poison counters are a simple concept. Get over it.
I think poison counters ARE in the command zone already. The command zone is a sort of special zone where there is still interaction with the game. The counters aren't in the exile zone because anything in exile is pretty much removed from the game, and therefore has no effect unless something else pulls it out of exile.
I think if they do poison again, they'll be poison emblems that say "if you have 10 or more poison emblems, you lose the game". It makes better sense that way because of the way this new rule seems to work.
Now would emblems just represent an ongoing game rule like Elspeth's Ultimate, or could it also be used as a EDH General would?
An example would be:
Punishing Emblem At the start of the game, flip over and reveal your Emblem to your opponent. This Emblem creates an ongoing effect for the rest of the game.
Players cannot gain life.
Just trying to comprehend the impact of this rules change and design space available created by it.
Those cards don't need emblems to work... I think Mark Gottlieb explained pretty simply and detailedly the cases which would need the implementation of emblems in the second paragraph:
Elspeth didn't need emblems to work either, as he says on the very paragraph you quoted.
I think they should streamline all "for the rest of the game" abilities to use emblems. This way, it will be less weird when it randomly shows up in a card like Elspeth.
There will probably be some sort of card. I mean, otherwise what's the point of the change. If they don't create some sort of physical reminder, you can still forget it's there. I mean, in a tournament setting, you can't sit there saying, "My stuff is indestructable" constantly, because it's something your opponent has to know, you can't try some sort of fake out.
Right.
But how many cards in Magic so far have the type of effect that is difficult to remember and lasts indefinitely ?
I've never thought that Elspeth's ultimate was hard to remember. Not for the guy playing her, anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese visual kei heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: http://www.onmyozatheatre.com
Consider; at this time, Elspeth's ability cannot be interfered with. That is the effect of the printed wording.
After EvT comes out, Elspeth creates an Emblem.
In October 2012 they print a card that says "Target Emblem loses all abilities." This means that Elspeth's effect can now be suppressed, when the printed version has no way to suppress it.
So they'll have to unerrata Elspeth to maintain printed functionality.
Why bother? Just create emblems to do what you want without errata-ing Elspeth.
So why would they print a card that makes Emblems lose abilities?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Emblems go in the command zone and have a controller and an ability. That's about it.
The big question this raises is whether they are introducing this so that they can replace "poison counter" with "poison emblem" in SoM, which would make sense since poison counters have always been weird. At the same time, they could not do that if they aren't bringing poison back.
Who knows.
Edit: At the very least, the emblem card that's most likely going to come with EvT should be a foil gold circle.
Doesn't seem like the type of effect that will appear on many cards, since it is truly permanent and can't be removed in any way, which is always something they avoid. And so far, it doesn't seem to connect to poison counters in any way.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
Giving counters to players is fine. I don't really see why you'd want to involve the cammand zone there.
* Then agian, the Legends rule got a retooling... i guess it's possible that poison would get a facelift as well.
I'm a bit worried about the incrementing terminology a new player has to grasp, but, well, since it's at mythic rarity, we shouldn't worry, should we? They did it for the same reason they chose not to make the hybrid symbols little versions of the Ravnica guilds' symbols - because they'll use them again in an environment where the initial striking flavor wouldn't make any sense. That's why "emblem" is preferable to "sigil"
It will likely be spoiled by Rosewater and come with a free ham-handed explanation on how "This sort of effect is so rare that it only has appeared on one of our rarest level of cards, so it makes sense to keep it at our rarest rarity."
Baseless speculation, but likely an obvious one.
...
"All emblems become 1/1 constructs and enter the battlefield with haste."
I do almost feel like there's some other ability in Magic similiar to Elspeth's effect though...this looks like a job for the Oracle...
The Epic keyword almost feels like it could use an Emblem...
EDIT: Stigma Lasher and Cyclopean Tomb could use Emblems too!
Custom Set: Pokemon: Generation 1
My mind numbing DC-10 stack!
Whenever Stigma Lasher deals damage to a player, that player gets an emblem with "This player can't gain life."
When Cyclopean Tomb is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you get an emblem with "At the beginning your upkeep, remove all mire counters from a land that a mire counter was put onto with Cyclopean Tomb but that a mire counter has not been removed from with Cyclopean Tomb.
Epic (You get an emblem with "You can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.")
Barf. I'm not sure this is a good idea.
Since this a "Command Zone" Item, I HIGHLY doubt there will be cards that affect emblems past cards that give emblem based abilities (Such as Elspeth).
"At the beginning of your upkeep if you control three or more emblems, you win the game"
really interesting idea, i must say... something like 10 poison counters/fail to draw/etc rules. Definitely new design space.
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
GONZO
Genius, fast, and long eared.
I do love it, though.
http://www.onmyozatheatre.com
BelzDecks: Check out my current decks !
BelzCards: Look at all the neat cards I made up !
With a physical token type of thing, there's no disputing that your stuff is indestructable. They can just look over at it and know, and if they forget to look, it's their problem.
Oh, and while I think that they will expand on the emblem thing, I wouldn't expect it too much. I mean, it'll be really annoying to have all these emblems active that you can do nothing about. I can see maybe a planeswalker making one every great while, or maybe some ridiculously over costed spell for something little, like draw 2 cards a turn or something.
WRBoros
RKuldotha Red
I think poison counters ARE in the command zone already. The command zone is a sort of special zone where there is still interaction with the game. The counters aren't in the exile zone because anything in exile is pretty much removed from the game, and therefore has no effect unless something else pulls it out of exile.
I think if they do poison again, they'll be poison emblems that say "if you have 10 or more poison emblems, you lose the game". It makes better sense that way because of the way this new rule seems to work.
WRBoros
RKuldotha Red
An example would be:
Punishing Emblem
At the start of the game, flip over and reveal your Emblem to your opponent. This Emblem creates an ongoing effect for the rest of the game.
Players cannot gain life.
Just trying to comprehend the impact of this rules change and design space available created by it.
I think they should streamline all "for the rest of the game" abilities to use emblems. This way, it will be less weird when it randomly shows up in a card like Elspeth.
*****
ricklongo and RicardoLongo on MTGO
*****
Visit my gaming blog: http://www.gamingsweetgaming.blogspot.com
****************
Check out Rick's Picks, my PureMTGO article series
****************
Right.
But how many cards in Magic so far have the type of effect that is difficult to remember and lasts indefinitely ?
I've never thought that Elspeth's ultimate was hard to remember. Not for the guy playing her, anyway.
http://www.onmyozatheatre.com
BelzDecks: Check out my current decks !
BelzCards: Look at all the neat cards I made up !
So why would they print a card that makes Emblems lose abilities?
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!