Thats what im saying, its good, for casual decks, but once you match it against the current Standart meta... mill doesnt work that well. For mill to work it needs to remove a massive amount of cards... not just a few, or a random quantity (wich... most of the time, doesnt even surpases 5-6 cards milled)
You haven't seen what happens on a run of my old T2 mono-blue mill. Yes, run Sanity Grinding without Twincast, but with fat creatures that I don't want to see the light of combat, I've milled people for a good 31 cards before. Plus, there's the annoyance of Memory Erosion. It didn't win me anything, but it was darn fun to play.
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Thats what im saying, its good, for casual decks, but once you match it against the current Standart meta... mill doesnt work that well. For mill to work it needs to remove a massive amount of cards... not just a few, or a random quantity (wich... most of the time, doesnt even surpases 5-6 cards milled)
Yes, but the Sanity Grinding deck is the best mill deck in many years, that is Urza's point. It has gotten Top 8 in serious tournaments. Does it have to be the best deck in the field for you to consider it a good deck? We are currently in a very diverse Standard field and one of the competitive decks available is a mill deck. It is not the most competitive, but it is certainly not an auto-loss.
As for Lightning Bolt coming back. That's cool. The real balance factor is the other burn cards around it. With it here, I would expect a lack of high quality burn in the 1, 2, and 3 slots once Lorwyn and Shadowmoor rotate out.
As for speculation about what Blue will get in terms of counter spells. I do not think they will ever reprint Counterspell, the card just warps the metagame too much. However, another quality 2cc counter spell should be expected. Control decks were purposely powered down while Lorwyn was in Standard in order to give Tribal decks the space they needed to breathe. With Lorwyn rotating out, I would expect to see either an attempt to restore that balance or slide things towards control. To go with that will be a quality counter spell in the 2cc slot. It's possible that it will be a new card, but if they were going with the most recent trend, I would expect them to use conditional counter spells in the 2cc slot and leave hard counters for 3cc+, so a Mana Leak like card would be more likely than Negate.
I think cancel is a failure. Counterspell was a blue staple card and cancel barely sees play. Most people playing Mana Leak, Rune Snag and even Remove Soul instead of Cancel says it all. 2 Mana makes a good counterspell (or 4 mana if there is a big enough upside)
I can see blue getting Mana Leak and Dismiss. Even counterspell is possible but i dont think it will be in.
You can do countermagic at 3 mana, it just has to be good. Like Dissipate, Absorb, and Hinder.
Not too happy about Bolt, if real. That just brings Magic back to the old era of do a little damage, then double bolt you, end of game. Every creature with toughness less than 4 becomes unplayable unless it's way over the curve or pro red or whatever.
You can do countermagic at 3 mana, it just has to be good. Like Dissipate, Absorb, and Hinder.
Agreed. Cancel requires a certain environment to be played. We aren't in that environment. We all know that Hinder was played back when it was legal, but I doubt it would see much play right now if we had it instead of Cancel. Sure, it has some good targets to hit (Anathemancer), but there is little rooms in control decks for a 3cc counter.
Not too happy about Bolt, if real. That just brings Magic back to the old era of do a little damage, then double bolt you, end of game. Every creature with toughness less than 4 becomes unplayable unless it's way over the curve or pro red or whatever.
Overall creature quality is much better than it used to be back when Lightning Bolt was last legal. Compared to back in 4th Edition, a lot of creatures, and certainly most uncommon and rare ones, are above the curve as people saw it back then.
On another note, if Lightning Bolt is reprinted, what do you thing the rarity will be? Will it still be Common, or has the game progressed to the point where 3 damage for one red is powerful enough to warrant an Uncommon rarity? Or even Rare?
Does this mean we will find a new influx of low toughness creatures with relevant sacrifice abilities? Since we can no longer sacrifice with damage on the stack, having some creatures with useful effects even if you 'bolt them sounds like a natural fit.
Well I'm shocked, but I guess bolt is back. While I think it's too powerful, I'm definitely excited to see it come back and can almost guarantee that it will be uncommon.
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I think cancel is a failure. Counterspell was a blue staple card and cancel barely sees play. Most people playing Mana Leak, Rune Snag and even Remove Soul instead of Cancel says it all. 2 Mana makes a good counterspell (or 4 mana if there is a big enough upside)
All you're demonstrating is that no one will play a 3-mana counter if there's a half-decent 2-mana one available. Even a 2-mana soft counter is still lightyears beyond most other colors' removal.
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Yes, but the Sanity Grinding deck is the best mill deck in many years, that is Urza's point. It has gotten Top 8 in serious tournaments. Does it have to be the best deck in the field for you to consider it a good deck? We are currently in a very diverse Standard field and one of the competitive decks available is a mill deck. It is not the most competitive, but it is certainly not an auto-loss.
As for Lightning Bolt coming back. That's cool. The real balance factor is the other burn cards around it. With it here, I would expect a lack of high quality burn in the 1, 2, and 3 slots once Lorwyn and Shadowmoor rotate out.
As for speculation about what Blue will get in terms of counter spells. I do not think they will ever reprint Counterspell, the card just warps the metagame too much. However, another quality 2cc counter spell should be expected. Control decks were purposely powered down while Lorwyn was in Standard in order to give Tribal decks the space they needed to breathe. With Lorwyn rotating out, I would expect to see either an attempt to restore that balance or slide things towards control. To go with that will be a quality counter spell in the 2cc slot. It's possible that it will be a new card, but if they were going with the most recent trend, I would expect them to use conditional counter spells in the 2cc slot and leave hard counters for 3cc+, so a Mana Leak like card would be more likely than Negate.
Counterspell doesn't warp anything. If anything, Lightning bolt is more warping than Counterspell.
Counterspell is only overpowered in conjunction with other decent counter magic. Post rotation, again, assuming Counterspell is reprinted, the only playable counter magic WOULD be counterspell. It is no more "warping" than the only playable counter magic being Mana Leak.
You'd have an argument if counterspell + mana leak was reprinted in the same set (or counterspell + a good, playable 3cc counter). But counterspell by itself, as the only playable counter magic, does NOT "warp" anything.
Control decks are moving away from permission.dec anyway, so again, counterspell isn't overpowered. It would simply be another tool.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Well I'm shocked lightning bolted, but I guess bolt is back. While I think it's too powerful, I'm definitely excited to see it come back and can almost guarantee that it will be uncommon.
Fixed! I told you shoe was legit :p. And I think it will be a common.
I think we're missing the point here. Lightning Bolt will probably be printed at C11 (Only ever card that common was Desert) to saturate the market because under the new rules, it sucks. I mean, I can't swing with it, stack damage, then sac it to deal 3 more damage, so what's the point?
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Counterspell doesn't warp anything. If anything, Lightning bolt is more warping than Counterspell.
They are not going to reprint counterspell. I WANT THEM TOO, but they are not going to.
The card is 'unfun' unlike 'Bolt. I know, I think counterspell is fun, but people don't. We can probably expect Remove Soul and Negate to be the new counterspells, if we are lucky they might give us Mana Leak back...
Any chance this is art for the set with banned cards from the history of magic? (you know, beside this art being ostensibly used to promo m10)...
Who am I kidding. Lightning-fricken-bolt.
Funny thing is, I am a red aggro player at heart and this is still somehow unnerving.
I mean, at least white has to incur the risk of giving you a land for its trouble in removing your creature.
It feels like WoTC is coming out of the closet on the power creep issue with this reprint.
"yes guys, creatures now are so efficient we have to bring alpha tugs back to keep them in check"
I am thrilled, in the whole sense of the world.
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Ugh, I think Lightning Bolt is a mistake. All the burn cards we've seen over the last two years have been designed around the slightly lower power level of Incinerate and company. I don't like the idea of bringing burn up to Bolt's level and I don't like the idea of a sea of crummy burn with Bolt floating above it either.
Alright, with red getting Lightning Bolt and black getting Duress, I'm not going to be satisfied with anything less than blue getting Counterspell and a decent 3-mana card draw spell...
They have to make each color playable on its own. So blue needs something among the powerlevel of those common-bombs too - counterspell maybe, or Brainstorm/Ponder.
Absolutely. If they're reprinting Lightning Bolt, they have no reason to not reprint Counterspell. Maybe in Zendikar and not M10, but if standard can tolerate Lightning Bolt, then Counterspell is 100% justifiable.
I'm also not a fan of this idea that every color needs their one overpowered staple card back for fun. Magic is a dramatically better game today than it was before these cards were retired and a large part of the reason is that now each of these roles (burn, countermagic, etc.) is filled by a variety of different, relatively even spells. Before that, there were basically only two modes: the one where every card was balanced to Counterspell and Lightning Bolt (I already have Legacy if I want to play this, thanks) or the one where burn and permission are boring because the one really good spell is an auto-include and everything else is a dramatically worse card.
Counterspell is only overpowered in conjunction with other decent counter magic.
That is exactly the problem, though. R&D should not be in a position where they can't print any "other decent countermagic" because the "staple" permission spell is too good when they do. That just leaves them with two options: let every deck with permission elements run Counterspell automatically (because every other counter is bad), or make it overpowered by printing other decent spells and move back towards uninteractive and painful permission decks.
Of course, when they got rid of it, this was the problem with Lightning Bolt too -- it was too good when you surrounded it with other good burn, and too boring when you surrounded it with burn that didn't stand up to it. And while creatures can withstand Bolt-level burn much better than they could in 1996, players' life totals haven't gotten any higher...
Wait, really? Is Wizards really going to be that hypocritical?
I'm disappointed. After all of the statements saying, time and time again, that lightning bolt was too overpowered because it could kill most of the played creatures for one mana, they go and reprint it.
How is this okay? I don't think the removal spells have been this efficient in T2 since like... ever? I just hope that this isn't true. Incinerate is already really good. Why is this happening. I really don't see a reason for WOTC to do this.
Wow awesome! I'm definitely going to collect or buy a few sets of these (even though I have like 12 Revised ones). Very very cool, and since it retained common status in MED hopefully it will stay common in this as well.
You haven't seen what happens on a run of my old T2 mono-blue mill. Yes, run Sanity Grinding without Twincast, but with fat creatures that I don't want to see the light of combat, I've milled people for a good 31 cards before. Plus, there's the annoyance of Memory Erosion. It didn't win me anything, but it was darn fun to play.
Casual
Burn
:symr::symg::symb: Devour Stomp :symb::symg::symr:
Holy damning christmas.
I am... at...
Wow...
That's it, someone help me.
Yes, but the Sanity Grinding deck is the best mill deck in many years, that is Urza's point. It has gotten Top 8 in serious tournaments. Does it have to be the best deck in the field for you to consider it a good deck? We are currently in a very diverse Standard field and one of the competitive decks available is a mill deck. It is not the most competitive, but it is certainly not an auto-loss.
As for Lightning Bolt coming back. That's cool. The real balance factor is the other burn cards around it. With it here, I would expect a lack of high quality burn in the 1, 2, and 3 slots once Lorwyn and Shadowmoor rotate out.
As for speculation about what Blue will get in terms of counter spells. I do not think they will ever reprint Counterspell, the card just warps the metagame too much. However, another quality 2cc counter spell should be expected. Control decks were purposely powered down while Lorwyn was in Standard in order to give Tribal decks the space they needed to breathe. With Lorwyn rotating out, I would expect to see either an attempt to restore that balance or slide things towards control. To go with that will be a quality counter spell in the 2cc slot. It's possible that it will be a new card, but if they were going with the most recent trend, I would expect them to use conditional counter spells in the 2cc slot and leave hard counters for 3cc+, so a Mana Leak like card would be more likely than Negate.
You can do countermagic at 3 mana, it just has to be good. Like Dissipate, Absorb, and Hinder.
Not too happy about Bolt, if real. That just brings Magic back to the old era of do a little damage, then double bolt you, end of game. Every creature with toughness less than 4 becomes unplayable unless it's way over the curve or pro red or whatever.
This is not the place to talk about Sanity Grind decks, but as soon as you mentioned it.
Thought Hemorrhage + Vexing Shusher + Guttural Response = less 4 Sanity Grinds on your deck.
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Agreed. Cancel requires a certain environment to be played. We aren't in that environment. We all know that Hinder was played back when it was legal, but I doubt it would see much play right now if we had it instead of Cancel. Sure, it has some good targets to hit (Anathemancer), but there is little rooms in control decks for a 3cc counter.
Overall creature quality is much better than it used to be back when Lightning Bolt was last legal. Compared to back in 4th Edition, a lot of creatures, and certainly most uncommon and rare ones, are above the curve as people saw it back then.
Does this mean we will find a new influx of low toughness creatures with relevant sacrifice abilities? Since we can no longer sacrifice with damage on the stack, having some creatures with useful effects even if you 'bolt them sounds like a natural fit.
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All you're demonstrating is that no one will play a 3-mana counter if there's a half-decent 2-mana one available. Even a 2-mana soft counter is still lightyears beyond most other colors' removal.
Counterspell doesn't warp anything. If anything, Lightning bolt is more warping than Counterspell.
Counterspell is only overpowered in conjunction with other decent counter magic. Post rotation, again, assuming Counterspell is reprinted, the only playable counter magic WOULD be counterspell. It is no more "warping" than the only playable counter magic being Mana Leak.
You'd have an argument if counterspell + mana leak was reprinted in the same set (or counterspell + a good, playable 3cc counter). But counterspell by itself, as the only playable counter magic, does NOT "warp" anything.
Control decks are moving away from permission.dec anyway, so again, counterspell isn't overpowered. It would simply be another tool.
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Fixed! I told you shoe was legit :p. And I think it will be a common.
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They are not going to reprint counterspell. I WANT THEM TOO, but they are not going to.
The card is 'unfun' unlike 'Bolt. I know, I think counterspell is fun, but people don't. We can probably expect Remove Soul and Negate to be the new counterspells, if we are lucky they might give us Mana Leak back...
Hell, I would take Power Sink at this point.
Who am I kidding. Lightning-fricken-bolt.
Funny thing is, I am a red aggro player at heart and this is still somehow unnerving.
I mean, at least white has to incur the risk of giving you a land for its trouble in removing your creature.
It feels like WoTC is coming out of the closet on the power creep issue with this reprint.
"yes guys, creatures now are so efficient we have to bring alpha tugs back to keep them in check"
I am thrilled, in the whole sense of the world.
"When you show up to the Mirrodin Besieged Prerelease, you'll be asked to choose a faction: Mirran, Phyrexian, or Jaded A-Hole" Aaron Forsythe, on Twitter
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I'm also not a fan of this idea that every color needs their one overpowered staple card back for fun. Magic is a dramatically better game today than it was before these cards were retired and a large part of the reason is that now each of these roles (burn, countermagic, etc.) is filled by a variety of different, relatively even spells. Before that, there were basically only two modes: the one where every card was balanced to Counterspell and Lightning Bolt (I already have Legacy if I want to play this, thanks) or the one where burn and permission are boring because the one really good spell is an auto-include and everything else is a dramatically worse card.
That is exactly the problem, though. R&D should not be in a position where they can't print any "other decent countermagic" because the "staple" permission spell is too good when they do. That just leaves them with two options: let every deck with permission elements run Counterspell automatically (because every other counter is bad), or make it overpowered by printing other decent spells and move back towards uninteractive and painful permission decks.
Of course, when they got rid of it, this was the problem with Lightning Bolt too -- it was too good when you surrounded it with other good burn, and too boring when you surrounded it with burn that didn't stand up to it. And while creatures can withstand Bolt-level burn much better than they could in 1996, players' life totals haven't gotten any higher...
I'm disappointed. After all of the statements saying, time and time again, that lightning bolt was too overpowered because it could kill most of the played creatures for one mana, they go and reprint it.
Power creep is going to kill us all.
How is this okay? I don't think the removal spells have been this efficient in T2 since like... ever? I just hope that this isn't true. Incinerate is already really good. Why is this happening. I really don't see a reason for WOTC to do this.
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Alright thats enough.
I am putting it in the spoiler as common, just because of posts like this.
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I would have to say because Shock is a common and been so high profile for years, this would almost have to be uncommon.