Seriously, a multi-colored gold card doesn't need to express each of its colors. Most do in at least some way, but there are many examples of those that don't.
Yeah, I know there are many that don't, and that's what I'm complaining about! Obviously there are some really old gold cards that don't do anything special, and there are some that have relatively unique abilities like Doran, the Siege Tower. I'm not complaining about those. I'm complaining about the nature of this block, which can be summed up as something like "We know the players like gold cards, so let's rush out another gold-themed block, but instead of taking the time to design cards that actually fit that theme, we're just going to take a bunch of mono-colored cards and add 1-2 more colors to them just so they fit the theme on a technicality, instead of saving them for a set where they actually make sense."
Yes this could be mono-red, but then it would cost something like XRRRR or more.
xRRR would be fine. This card is nice, but not undercosted.
I don't see where people get the "This isn't multicolored" stuff from. Remember that multicolor doesn't mean "has elements of each of its component colors", all the time. It can also be a merging of the colors of something that conceptually fits with each of the colors in its cost. Note that this may not be a "RGB" card, but it certainly is a Jund card.
This card does not fit conceptually into green. Green does not do indiscriminate mass damage to all creatures. I can see the "Jund" angle, to it, but that should only make it red/black.
I also don't think this could be a mono-red card. Red doesn't conceptually do one-sided sweepers, it doesn't fit with the chaos element of red.
Atleastthree counterexamples have already been cited. What you're saying simply isn't true.
Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
Actually, comparing to Flamewave, this is undercosted, simply because it's scalable. You ever thought maybe the green could account for it hitting fliers. Sure Flamewave hits all creatures, but most red X damage sweepers only hit ground guys, so green can equate for a cheeaper, more versatile flamewave.
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I also don't think this could be a mono-red card. Red doesn't conceptually do one-sided sweepers, it doesn't fit with the chaos element of red.
Sigh... again, read the thread. Chandra Nalaar and Flame Wave have been brought up multiple times.
Quote from JCricket »
:xmana::symr::symr::symr: would be fine. This card is nice, but not undercosted.
Thing is, Flame Wave is at a perfectly reasonable cost for what it does, so there's no real reason to make a strictly better version of it. So I guess it would indeed have to be something like XRRRR, or X2RR, etc.
Actually, comparing to Flamewave, this is undercosted, simply because it's scalable. You ever thought maybe the green could account for it hitting fliers. Sure Flamewave hits all creatures, but most red X damage sweepers only hit ground guys, so green can equate for a cheeaper, more versatile flamewave.
Yeah, I'm not understanding how this is being said to be out of color at all. Hurricane + Earthquake + Pestilence. At this point, it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction thing to say about ALA block. Now, there are some cards with obscure color ties, but this isn't one of them.
I don't recall people saying that about Firespout.
Yeah, I know there are many that don't, and that's what I'm complaining about! Obviously there are some really old gold cards that don't do anything special, and there are some that have relatively unique abilities like Doran, the Siege Tower. I'm not complaining about those. I'm complaining about the nature of this block, which can be summed up as something like "We know the players like gold cards, so let's rush out another gold-themed block, but instead of taking the time to design cards that actually fit that theme, we're just going to take a bunch of mono-colored cards and add 1-2 more colors to them just so they fit the theme, instead of saving them for a set where they actually make sense."
Do you know what that would do to this block if they were to do that for every card? ._.;
Also, note: multi colored cards can be more powerful due to their cost: Watch Wolf=Savannah Lions+Norwood Ranger
Wizards is really pushing this Jund Mana Ramp deck. I wonder if we have enough x spells to use Roshean Meander now. I envision a Noble Heirarch/Birds of Paradise/Fertile Ground deck with some plainswalkers and then banefire/profane/lavalanche. Would it be fast enough? Sounds goofy...I kinda like the card though.
Yeah, mana creatures and Rosheen are not the way to go. There is a competitive mana ramp build in the standard forums that will eat this card up...but only as a 1 or 2 of, of course.
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Jund Ramp just became a tier one deck in standard. If you don't believe me don't quote me and be like this card is bad, just wait and see. This card will destroy kithkin (new tech wretched banquet for BFT) and it will hit b/w tokens just after they think they saved their guys from a fallout or jund charm. Nevermind the fact that this card will become the number one way to destroy either Ajani.
Jund Ramp just became a tier one deck in standard. If you don't believe me don't quote me and be like this card is bad, just wait and see. This card will destroy kithkin (new tech wretched banquet for BFT) and it will hit b/w tokens just after they think they saved their guys from a fallout or jund charm. Nevermind the fact that this card will become the number one way to destroy either Ajani.
Deathmark>>>>>Banquet. It is useful against Bant/Dark Bant...
I don't think it is so much this card, as it is Thought Hemorrhage...
This card is going to fare much better assuming you got the 3rd turn Hemorrhage on the opponent.
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Yeah, I'm not understanding how this is being said to be out of color at all. Hurricane + Earthquake + Pestilence. At this point, it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction thing to say about ALA block. Now, there are some cards with obscure color ties, but this isn't one of them.
I'm really tired of dissenting opinions being described as "knee-jerk." Just because you don't care about the justification for an opinion doesn't mean there isn't one.
If this card were so clearly Hurricane + Earthquake + Pestilence, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it were even just red/black, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem is that the "Hurricane" part of its effect is completely incidental. Pestilence, and its twin Pyrohemia cover everything this card can do and more. No mono-green card damages all creatures controlled by a single player, but manyredcardsdo, probably more than are listed here.
I don't recall people saying that about Firespout.
That's because Firespout is different. Firespout requires you to pay red for a red effect, and green for a green one. It is well within the color pie, and is actually a prime example of how this kind of card should look. If it were in Alara block, it would probably have an unnecessary white mana in its cost, though, and then we'd have people trying to use Wrath of God to justify it.
Yeah, that's true if the effect is something that both the colors do well. Watchwolf is fine because white and green are the best at small creatures. This card would be fine in red/black, since both do this kind of mass damage effect. Green does not.
xRRR would indeed make it strictly better than Flame Wave. So what? Flame Wave is a rarely played card, and they obsolete things like that all the time.
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Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
JCricket, it is indeed a green card and it's ability is not green at all. But due to mana requirements, gold cards are allowed to do pretty much whatever they want. Big whoop. There's nothing red, black, or blue about Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker's first ability anyways. =P
Flavorwise for Jund colors, this design makes perfect sense. Especially since this spell is boring unless you throw a lot of mana into it, and green LOVES throwing lots of mana around!
I agree with you in principle, but not in this specific instance.
Let's split the ability into three parts:
R Deal X damage to each creature without flying target player controls G Deal X damage to each creature with flying target player controls B Deal X damage to target player
All these colours can do these things in some form or another (in the black case it's typically life loss instead of damage). Combining them together is simply cost reduction, and not badly designed cost reduction like Rhox War Monk where the blue and green don't really fit.
Yeah, it isn't as bad as the War Monk, because even though it's a stretch for green, at least green has an effect that's somewhat similar to this. War Monk should have had Flash instead of Lifelink, imo.
Other examples of gold cost reduction that works would be Boros Swiftblade (well, it was before Viashino Slaughtermaster came along), Razorfin Hunter (in the old colour pie), and Watchwolf. Those cards could also be monocolour, but aren't in favour of aggressive costing.
Those are all examples of "the two best colors at this effect are teaming up to do it extra-efficiently," and I don't have a problem with that. This card, though, looks to me like "The two best colors at this effect are teaming up to do it, and they decided to bring their kid brother along, because their mom made them do it so he wouldn't feel left out."
Quote from Phaethon »
Yeah, this is fine with those three colors, since they all do things that the card does, it's not just tacked on like sedraxis specter or whatever
Blue gets flyers, and red gets Phoenixes and recurring burn spells. That's probably more justification than this card has for including green, and yet your observation about is is basically right - it looks tacked on.
JCricket, it is indeed a green card and it's ability is not green at all. But due to mana requirements, gold cards are allowed to do pretty much whatever they want. Big whoop. There's nothing red, black, or blue about Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker's first ability anyways. =P
Nicol Bolas also fits badly into the color pie. You're absolutely right to observe that we are edging closer and closer to "Gold cards do whatever they want." I just happen to think that's not a good thing.
Flavorwise for Jund colors, this design makes perfect sense. Especially since this spell is boring unless you throw a lot of mana into it, and green LOVES throwing lots of mana around!
Flavorwise, any card could be made to fit into any color. Remember Planar Chaos?
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Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
Jund Ramp just became a tier one deck in standard. If you don't believe me don't quote me and be like this card is bad, just wait and see. This card will destroy kithkin (new tech wretched banquet for BFT) and it will hit b/w tokens just after they think they saved their guys from a fallout or jund charm. Nevermind the fact that this card will become the number one way to destroy either Ajani.
What day and what format? That seems like a pretty overly-confident statement without a lot of the details. In Block it looks like a solid finisher/trail blazer for Jund or 5CC. I for one am kinda excited about this card as a 1-2 of.
Flavorwise, any card could be made to fit into any color. Remember Planar Chaos?
Yeah, you got me there...
Except...-
Although this card clearly should not be green, it isn't that much of a stretch.
Aren't cards allowed to break the color pie as long as they have high requirements to be effective? Like Augery Adept, I think this card fits the bill.
JCricket, it is indeed a green card and it's ability is not green at all. But due to mana requirements, gold cards are allowed to do pretty much whatever they want. Big whoop. There's nothing red, black, or blue about Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker's first ability anyways. =P
The only non Red/Black thing about that first ability is that it hits Enchantments. Red and Black have plenty of Artifact and Land removal.
Did you even bother to read the post you quoted? Cause I sure did, allow me to highlight the part you missed.
Quote from nyjcmp »
just after they think they saved their guys from a fallout or jund charm.
If a Jund Ramp deck runs 4 VFs, 4 J Charms, and 1 or 2 of these, it's going to be pretty tough for a forge tender. (Especially if Jund Charm prevents a Mistakelerk from saving their white behinds)
No mono-green card damages all creatures controlled by a single player
But a number of red-green cards do! My god. This is not a new ability for Red Green. At all!
Just because a card could be monocolored, doesn't mean it should be. If this was printed in any block with more than, I dont know, four multicolor cards, it would almost invariably wind up Red Green.
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Although this card clearly should not be green, it isn't that much of a stretch.
Agreed. It isn't that bad, compared to some other cards in this block.
Aren't cards allowed to break the color pie as long as they have high requirements to be effective? Like Augery Adept, I think this card fits the bill.
Apparently, yes, they are in fact allowed to do that, but should they be? Augury Adept was a hotly debated card, even within WotC. There's clearly an internal faction that thought it was unacceptable, and I sympathize with their position.
All green (and one Green/Red) with a similar ability.
I've been over this argument a few times. If you want to see my response to it, read the thread. If you just want a summary, here it is: Yes, Hurricane effects are somewhat similar to part of what this card is doing, but green never gets "damage all of the opponent's creatures." More importantly, red does get that effect all by itself, and doesn't need green to do it. There's no reason it can't be green, but there's also no reason it should be.
But a number of red-green cards do! My god. This is not a new ability for Red Green. At all!
Exactly one previous red-green card does this, and that one is also unnecessarily green.
Just because a card could be monocolored, doesn't mean it should be.
It usually does mean it should be. I'm ok with exceptions for unique cards, or even something like Fusion Elemental, but this block really takes the whole concept of "gold just to be gold" way too far for me.
If this was printed in any block with more than, I dont know, four multicolor cards, it would almost invariably wind up Red Green.
I think it's a better fit for red/black, if they wanted to make it gold.
Anyways, I'm done complaining now. Time for some eats.
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Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
Yeah, I know there are many that don't, and that's what I'm complaining about! Obviously there are some really old gold cards that don't do anything special, and there are some that have relatively unique abilities like Doran, the Siege Tower. I'm not complaining about those. I'm complaining about the nature of this block, which can be summed up as something like "We know the players like gold cards, so let's rush out another gold-themed block, but instead of taking the time to design cards that actually fit that theme, we're just going to take a bunch of mono-colored cards and add 1-2 more colors to them just so they fit the theme on a technicality, instead of saving them for a set where they actually make sense."
xRRR would be fine. This card is nice, but not undercosted.
This card does not fit conceptually into green. Green does not do indiscriminate mass damage to all creatures. I can see the "Jund" angle, to it, but that should only make it red/black.
At least three counterexamples have already been cited. What you're saying simply isn't true.
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Thing is, Flame Wave is at a perfectly reasonable cost for what it does, so there's no real reason to make a strictly better version of it. So I guess it would indeed have to be something like XRRRR, or X2RR, etc.
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Yeah, I'm not understanding how this is being said to be out of color at all. Hurricane + Earthquake + Pestilence. At this point, it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction thing to say about ALA block. Now, there are some cards with obscure color ties, but this isn't one of them.
I don't recall people saying that about Firespout.
Do you know what that would do to this block if they were to do that for every card? ._.;
Also, note: multi colored cards can be more powerful due to their cost: Watch Wolf=Savannah Lions+Norwood Ranger
You're own proof discredits that Flame Wave
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Yeah, mana creatures and Rosheen are not the way to go. There is a competitive mana ramp build in the standard forums that will eat this card up...but only as a 1 or 2 of, of course.
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Deathmark>>>>>Banquet. It is useful against Bant/Dark Bant...
I don't think it is so much this card, as it is Thought Hemorrhage...
This card is going to fare much better assuming you got the 3rd turn Hemorrhage on the opponent.
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I'm really tired of dissenting opinions being described as "knee-jerk." Just because you don't care about the justification for an opinion doesn't mean there isn't one.
If this card were so clearly Hurricane + Earthquake + Pestilence, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it were even just red/black, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem is that the "Hurricane" part of its effect is completely incidental. Pestilence, and its twin Pyrohemia cover everything this card can do and more. No mono-green card damages all creatures controlled by a single player, but many red cards do, probably more than are listed here.
That's because Firespout is different. Firespout requires you to pay red for a red effect, and green for a green one. It is well within the color pie, and is actually a prime example of how this kind of card should look. If it were in Alara block, it would probably have an unnecessary white mana in its cost, though, and then we'd have people trying to use Wrath of God to justify it.
Yes, and that's exactly the point! That's what I don't like about this block!
Yeah, that's true if the effect is something that both the colors do well. Watchwolf is fine because white and green are the best at small creatures. This card would be fine in red/black, since both do this kind of mass damage effect. Green does not.
xRRR would indeed make it strictly better than Flame Wave. So what? Flame Wave is a rarely played card, and they obsolete things like that all the time.
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Flavorwise for Jund colors, this design makes perfect sense. Especially since this spell is boring unless you throw a lot of mana into it, and green LOVES throwing lots of mana around!
Yeah, it isn't as bad as the War Monk, because even though it's a stretch for green, at least green has an effect that's somewhat similar to this. War Monk should have had Flash instead of Lifelink, imo.
Those are all examples of "the two best colors at this effect are teaming up to do it extra-efficiently," and I don't have a problem with that. This card, though, looks to me like "The two best colors at this effect are teaming up to do it, and they decided to bring their kid brother along, because their mom made them do it so he wouldn't feel left out."
Blue gets flyers, and red gets Phoenixes and recurring burn spells. That's probably more justification than this card has for including green, and yet your observation about is is basically right - it looks tacked on.
Nicol Bolas also fits badly into the color pie. You're absolutely right to observe that we are edging closer and closer to "Gold cards do whatever they want." I just happen to think that's not a good thing.
Flavorwise, any card could be made to fit into any color. Remember Planar Chaos?
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What day and what format? That seems like a pretty overly-confident statement without a lot of the details. In Block it looks like a solid finisher/trail blazer for Jund or 5CC. I for one am kinda excited about this card as a 1-2 of.
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Yeah, you got me there...
Except...-
Although this card clearly should not be green, it isn't that much of a stretch.
Aren't cards allowed to break the color pie as long as they have high requirements to be effective? Like Augery Adept, I think this card fits the bill.
The only non Red/Black thing about that first ability is that it hits Enchantments. Red and Black have plenty of Artifact and Land removal.
Edit: The Card is perfectly green. Hurricane Squall Line Savage Twister.
All green (and one Green/Red) with a similar ability.
Thought Hemorrhage says hello as well.
One 1/1 creature is not going to stop this card.
Sweep effects still work against decks that run BFT just fine.
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Did you even bother to read the post you quoted? Cause I sure did, allow me to highlight the part you missed.
If a Jund Ramp deck runs 4 VFs, 4 J Charms, and 1 or 2 of these, it's going to be pretty tough for a forge tender. (Especially if Jund Charm prevents a Mistakelerk from saving their white behinds)
I understand your point. It's definitely not knee-jerk. It is thought out. But I do think it's a stretched criticism.
IMO, this card is not mono-green. It is blending the 3 colors. Reminds me of Simoon.
EDIT: The color pie police remind me a bit of lawyers scouring for precedent.
But a number of red-green cards do! My god. This is not a new ability for Red Green. At all!
Just because a card could be monocolored, doesn't mean it should be. If this was printed in any block with more than, I dont know, four multicolor cards, it would almost invariably wind up Red Green.
I must have it!
Agreed. It isn't that bad, compared to some other cards in this block.
Apparently, yes, they are in fact allowed to do that, but should they be? Augury Adept was a hotly debated card, even within WotC. There's clearly an internal faction that thought it was unacceptable, and I sympathize with their position.
Yes, that's correct - the reason it's out-of-color is that it can destroy enchantments. I think they should have stuck with a Recoil-like effect.
I've been over this argument a few times. If you want to see my response to it, read the thread. If you just want a summary, here it is: Yes, Hurricane effects are somewhat similar to part of what this card is doing, but green never gets "damage all of the opponent's creatures." More importantly, red does get that effect all by itself, and doesn't need green to do it. There's no reason it can't be green, but there's also no reason it should be.
Thank you for acknowledging this.
Yeah, it reminds me of Simoon, too. Simoon doesn't need green, either - it would have been a fine mono-red card.
This isn't the first time I've been compared to a lawyer.
Exactly one previous red-green card does this, and that one is also unnecessarily green.
It usually does mean it should be. I'm ok with exceptions for unique cards, or even something like Fusion Elemental, but this block really takes the whole concept of "gold just to be gold" way too far for me.
I think it's a better fit for red/black, if they wanted to make it gold.
Anyways, I'm done complaining now. Time for some eats.
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