Actually I believe Haste is tertiary in green, not secondary. MaRo originally considered green for secondary status but in the end felt that black needed the extra keyword more.
So for those skimming:
Haste is:
Primary is Red
Secondary in Black
Tertiary in Green
So for all of you screaming that haste isn't green, you are in fact correct. It's not part of that colour, but since it has tertiary status they can use it on rare occasions. Although I admit, I'm not seeing much in terms of the "strong flavour" argument in this card. (Which could be interpreted as a strike against it)
Well, that was true, but green was granted co-secondary status with black a few months later around the time of Shadowmoor.
In the same column I reference in the last card I talked about how there was much discussion about which color to allow haste in secondarily. In the column I explained that black narrowly won out over green. Since then, there has been a lot of talk. The green contingent felt we made a mistake. Green could really use haste, they explained. But black needed it design-wise, I would counter. In the end, we came to a compromise—black and green both get to use haste secondarily. Haste, we decided, was cool enough that it could handle three colors having it. Note that red will still be the only color to have it as a primary keyword meaning it will still show up much more in red than black or green. What this does mean is that black and green both now have the thumbs up to use it from time to time.
Name a mono green creature with vigilance from recent sets. I'm pretty sure you won't get many hits.
Vigilance is overrated anyway.
Gatherer says:
Favor of the Overbeing (green half)
Godsire (green-centered, but feel free to not count it)
Mirri, Cat Warrior (10th ed.)
Oakgnarl Warrior
Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
I'm just putting that out there.
In my opinion, vigilance is fine given the right sized creature--that is, a creature that is good at both attacking and blocking. This translates to decent power and high toughness. I think Thornling would fit that bill.
As for haste, haste is really good. It goes a long way in making a creature playable (though for the record, Felecorr, yes, Limited is the only format I'm very familiar with). Zac Hill just wrote a great article about the concept of haste; you can read it for free at Starcity here. Basically, the point is, you want your creatures to have impact ASAP, and haste is obviously a pretty good enabler of that. CiP abilities are another example of a creature having impact immediately rather than sitting around waiting a turn cycle to attack or half a turn cycle (or less in multiplayer) to block. So what I'm saying is, haste is so good that I'm fine with it being a "dead" activated ability after the first turn (though you can use it after bounce, etc, as has been said a million times).
Just received coinfirmation from Zesty, these are ALL real. Kinda saddened by the fact that i didn't get to spoil the card i have bragging about since the discovery of the list, thornling. As for the typos, we all know what Thornling should be, just a miscomminicae.
Bold mine--I want to know what that phrase means. Are you implying that the haste is a typo or otherwise wrong, and that Thornling "should" have an untap ability?
Overall, I like the card fine just as it is. Would it be better or worse with some other ability and without such-and-such ability? Maybe, maybe not. Magic is a pretty complex game.
Ah, curses, I was hoping the 'mythic' rarity was incorrect. How am I ever going to get a set of these?
To all those hating on the choice of haste vs. untapping: Untap might have been a really effective ability on morphling way back when, but how much play did torchling ever see? How much *better* would torchling have been with optional haste instead of some irrelevant, bad vigilance? Torchling borrowed a little too heavily from the original, and it was much worse for having done so. I'm glad they branched out with this one (pun intended).
RFG effects have always been good, and all this gnashing of teeth over there being an answers to thornling in standard is daft - "Oh darn, it can't crack the metagame completely in half". In case you hadn't noticed, indestructibility and toughness pump makes this thing nearly immune to black *and* red removal - weren't those colors supposed to be good at that? Also, I dont know about you guys, but in the game I play, Wrath of God is still a big problem for green. If you want a totally unsolveable creature, you'll have to give him a Cloak and Dagger.
Why would they give it shroud and untap and an additional power and toughness...that would make it BETTER than Morphling. I'm sure the goal was to make them equal, but on different spectrums. He's a pure aggro creature, deal with it. GG: trample and indestructible...red zone. you can attack into blockers with 7 power and lose nothing. The mana expense will put you behind...but who cares...you're attacking for 7. His abilities are aggressive, because he's green, and if the abilities are worse than his siblings it's because he's larger for the same cost. I agree that if the haste is correct, that kinda sucks. but they clearly wanted to keep him purely agressive. Someone mentioned using him with Doran...which sounds pretty wicked to me.
Yeah they really should have just made it Morphling and changed the name to Thornling with new casting cost 3GG.
There ya go thats what people want new colorization of old cards!
Incinerate say hello to your new friend Incinerate 2.0 its 1B and does the exact same thing!
Terror say hello to your new friend Terror 2.0 it costs 1W and does the exact same thing!
Man this game will go on for 50 more years if they just keep doing that.
I don't know exactly what you think, but I'm of the opinion that this is just lame card design. Seriously, Morphling was blue only. It was unique. A card that should have stayed unique. Why are they doing this... Aaaarghhh!
Allthough I have to say, if they are payable (price in money) in the end, I would love to make a Shapeshifter deck with 20 'Lings in it.
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hey i have managed to evolve my axolotls by feeding them thyroid glands the thyroxine contained in these gland is enough to change these water dwelling creatures into land based creatures
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
Everyone is comparing it to Morphling, which was broken beyond relief. Whilst the comparisons are inevitable and maybe even justifiable to some extent, I am certain that if Superman had never been printed then people would be going nuts about this card. Either way, to call CON a bad set on the basis of this card 'being mythic' and only having haste/ indestructability seems pretty retarded. Whine whine whine!!!
I do honestly not think Superman would be played currently. The creatures are alot more powerful now adays. I mean 4/4, flash, tap all target oppeonts lands, with a minor drawback (well minor in fae) for 4 - or as it is commonly seen: 4/4, timewalk, your oppeont draws a card and may put a land into play, again that minor drawback. Thornling is fine. I mean with shroud he would be nearly imposible to kill at all - which would make him quite annoying.
Parasitic Strix is sick. 2/2 flier is FINE for 2C, even in white (which is a better creature color then blue) - I am talking limit here -, but this got a burn abillity too?!?
Brackwater Elemental seames decent. Flying wouldnt really help that much with all those fea (BB I am looking at you) flying around. It is kind of a punisher card. Target oppeont sacrifices a creature or takes 4 damage.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
This seems to put us over the halfway line for Conflux cards spoiled!! Some of these cards look like decent limited staples. Fog Elemental with unearth instead of flying seems good enough. The removal is obviously pretty good in a R/B deck but still playable in a red. The gargoyle looks like a fine esper pick.
I think Thornling looks strong though I doubt it will make an appearance in T2 due to it costing 5 instead of 4.
=D
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morphling, masticore and phyrexian processor were simple cards. you killed whoever was playing them, before they single handedly killed you.
thornling also has this effect. if you cant deal with him, he will solo you. the fact he needs gross amounts of mana is almost irrelevant, since theres no reason to play spells once you lay him out
Well, I was right about Thornling being a 4/4 for 3GG Enough about the -ling though, the other cards are really solid!
Parasitic Strix is, as somebody mentioned, a 3-card combo with Alluren and Cavern Harpy. Very potent indeed!
Dark Temper is a red Dark Banishing, provided you have a black creature in play. Nice card!
Darklit Gargoyle is basically a 3/1 flyer on turn 3, I'ld pick that if I was in Esper colors. For casual this is pretty funny too with toughness boosters like Veteran Armorer.
Sludge Strider seems playable with Esperzoa, that's nice synergy.
Brackwater Elemental is decent fat in blue, unearth is very nice, since you basically force your opponent to leave a sizable blocker back, lest he gets smacked about for 1/5 of his life total out of nowhere (well, out of the graveyard actually).
Suicidal Charge is cute. Nausea + must attack means you will have some juicy blocks to make. It is pretty expensive though at 5 mana.
I'm really disappointed about Thornling, at least as we currently believe it exists. (Don't get me wrong; I'm really happy that green got such a great card, but...) First of all, it apparently has "G: Thornling gains haste until end of turn." instead of "G: Untap Thornling." I do see the argument of everyone who supports this, and it is a useful ability. But having Untap is much better for the card. First of all, it gives Thornling a stronger mechanical connection to the other 2 members of the partial cycle. Next, it helps out Bant. Being able to untap Thornling would allow it to attack alone, getting Exalted bonuses, and then still be able to block, after being untapped. (Vigilance would serve the same purpose, and would be acceptable as well.)
Next, Thornling has been made into a mythic rare. I can't see a good reason why. It has all of zero effect on the card for constructed formats, except for making it harder to get for lower-budgeted players (like myself; oh no, I have a personal connection.), so it really only makes it have less effect in Limited. In draft, this shouldn't matter too much. Conflux is a small set; you wouldn't see too many Thornlings at rare in your average draft. In Sealed, it still doesn't have a giant effect (as far as I know; anyone know better about this than myself?). So this is either an error (oh how I'm hoping...), or it's a move by WotC intending to make it seem really cool and awesome, which they could have done more effectively by simply making a well-designed card.
Much as I really like Thornling, and the Morphling cycle in general, I think Wizards made some noticeable mistakes, if the card is as it's been revealed to be.
Parasitic Strix2U
Common
Artifact Creature - Bird
Flying
When Parasitic Strix comes into play, if you control a black permanent, target player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.
2/2
Dark Temper2R
Common
Instant
Dark Temper deals 2 damage to target creature. If you control a black permanent, destroy the creature instead.
Darklit Gargoyle1W
Common
Artifact Creature - Gargoyle
Flying
B: Darklit Gargoyle gets +2/-1 until end of turn.
1/2
Sludge Strider1WUB
Uncommon
Artifact Creature - Insect
Whenever another artifact comes into play under your control or another artifact you control leaves play, you may pay 1. If you do, target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
3/3
Brackwater Elemental2U
Common
Creature - Elemental
When Brackwater Elemental attacks or blocks, sacrifice it at end of urn.
Unearth 2U
4/4
Suicidal Charge3BR
Common
Enchantment
Sacrifice Suicidal Charge: Creatures your opponents control get -1/-1 until end of turn. Those creatures attack this turn if able.
All complete garbage.
Thornling3GG
Creature - Shapeshifter (M) G: Thornling gains haste until end of turn. G: Thornling gains trample until end of turn. G: Thornling is indestructible until end of turn. 1: Thornling gains +1/-1 until end of turn. 1: Thornling gains -1/+1 until end of turn.
4/4
It's okay for this to be mythic, because it's definitely not a 4-of in every green deck. But I do like it, and think it will see constructed play (if the above is accurate). A 4/4 for 5 had better have some kickass abilities, especially if it's mythic. The haste (and no, haste is NOT green whatsoever) is pretty pointless on a 4/4 vanilla, unless you're already at 10 or more mana, in which case you should be able to win without this. Who wants a 4/4 haste for 6? Eww. The trample is nice (especially with the pump) but it sucks to have to pay for it. Definitely not as good as the untap of previous 'lings, or shroud. Indestructible is pretty amazing. The pumps are useful but don't feel green to me at all. The card could just say:
3GG
Creature - Shapeshifter
At the beginning of your upkeep, pay or sacrifice this.
Kickass (This creature beats up other creatures, deals damage to your opponent, and is tough to get rid of.)
4/4
In short, it's playable, but doesn't seem very well designed, and doesn't need to be mythic.
I don't know if there are many people on Sally who where playing when Morphling was T2 legal, and I was, so there's something I thought I'd mention. People have the wrong idea about the card, it didn't see as much play as people seem think it did. If you do a little research you'll find it didn't. Now I'm not talking about FNM play I'm more speaking to regionals and above, but seriously it didn't.
Of all the Morphling variants, I still like the white Morphling's design the best. Wish back when it was printed it cost less or had more power/toughness.
I don't know exactly what you think, but I'm of the opinion that this is just lame card design. Seriously, Morphling was blue only. It was unique. A card that should have stayed unique. Why are they doing this... Aaaarghhh!
Morphling is a well remembered card and while Torchling was not played (because it wasn't very good in the environment), it was well received by casual players. This is why Thornling was made to capture that nostalgia of Morphling again.
In short, it's playable, but doesn't seem very well designed, and doesn't need to be mythic.
The design for Thornling was restricted by the fact that they wanted a throback to Morphling. This requires it to have five abilities and while I'm surprised it doesn't have the untap ability along with the +1/-1 and -1/+1 abilities (the three abilities common between Morphling and Torchling), it is definitely familiar for anyone that knows of those two cards and that was part of the point.
As for it having a pretty lame ability (Haste), Torchling not only had a pretty lame ability too, it didn't even see competitive play. If this sees competitive play, it will already be much better than that card.
About the comment "Haste is useless after the first turn", it's not that simple. Remember, it also applies to creatures switching controllers (so if you steal a Thornling with, say, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, you can pay G to attack with it the same turn). Probably not a big difference, I admit, but still...
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Thou shalt not have others of the same Legendary before me Thou shalt not frame images with the modern card face Thou shalt not change rules in vain Remember the Reserved List to keep it holy Honor thy Slivers and the symmetry of their abilities Thou shalt not kill mana burn Thou shalt not sacrifice depth for accessibility Thou shalt not steal combat damage from the stack Thou shalt tell a story through thy cards All must be one
Ahh thornling, you are quite nice. Inferior to collossus in most decks, but a 1 or 2 of in decks running collossus, notably ramp. Much like collossus, he must die asap or the opp is in trouble. Unlike him, off the top late game it's amazing, and only white (or black if you get caught with your pants and toughness down) can deal.
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Now for the question that really matters: is Thornling illustrated by r.k. post? It will be sacrilige if not, and if so I'm very excited to see the artwork!
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haste is not worthless, late game with alot of mana this guy really shines, swinging right when it hits play is good, mana ramp will hit for 5 right when it hits play
i'd say that thornling is better than chameleon colossus for the fact that it can be indestructible. i'm sure this guy will see heaps of constructed play.
It's okay for this to be mythic, because it's definitely not a 4-of in every green deck. But I do like it, and think it will see constructed play (if the above is accurate). A 4/4 for 5 had better have some kickass abilities, especially if it's mythic. The haste (and no, haste is NOT green whatsoever) is pretty pointless on a 4/4 vanilla, unless you're already at 10 or more mana, in which case you should be able to win without this. Who wants a 4/4 haste for 6? Eww. The trample is nice (especially with the pump) but it sucks to have to pay for it. Definitely not as good as the untap of previous 'lings, or shroud. Indestructible is pretty amazing. The pumps are useful but don't feel green to me at all
Actually haste has tertiary status in green now, as per Rosewater's last color pie revision article, so it's acceptable for green to get haste every so often.
This card would have been awesome if the indestructability ability was shroud instead. As is, it still dies to much of the formats removal (white), and needs 7 mana to be hasty and unsolvable when it arrives. Not so great...
Well, that was true, but green was granted co-secondary status with black a few months later around the time of Shadowmoor.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr329
Gatherer says:
Favor of the Overbeing (green half)
Godsire (green-centered, but feel free to not count it)
Mirri, Cat Warrior (10th ed.)
Oakgnarl Warrior
Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
I'm just putting that out there.
In my opinion, vigilance is fine given the right sized creature--that is, a creature that is good at both attacking and blocking. This translates to decent power and high toughness. I think Thornling would fit that bill.
As for haste, haste is really good. It goes a long way in making a creature playable (though for the record, Felecorr, yes, Limited is the only format I'm very familiar with). Zac Hill just wrote a great article about the concept of haste; you can read it for free at Starcity here. Basically, the point is, you want your creatures to have impact ASAP, and haste is obviously a pretty good enabler of that. CiP abilities are another example of a creature having impact immediately rather than sitting around waiting a turn cycle to attack or half a turn cycle (or less in multiplayer) to block. So what I'm saying is, haste is so good that I'm fine with it being a "dead" activated ability after the first turn (though you can use it after bounce, etc, as has been said a million times).
Bold mine--I want to know what that phrase means. Are you implying that the haste is a typo or otherwise wrong, and that Thornling "should" have an untap ability?
Overall, I like the card fine just as it is. Would it be better or worse with some other ability and without such-and-such ability? Maybe, maybe not. Magic is a pretty complex game.
To all those hating on the choice of haste vs. untapping: Untap might have been a really effective ability on morphling way back when, but how much play did torchling ever see? How much *better* would torchling have been with optional haste instead of some irrelevant, bad vigilance? Torchling borrowed a little too heavily from the original, and it was much worse for having done so. I'm glad they branched out with this one (pun intended).
RFG effects have always been good, and all this gnashing of teeth over there being an answers to thornling in standard is daft - "Oh darn, it can't crack the metagame completely in half". In case you hadn't noticed, indestructibility and toughness pump makes this thing nearly immune to black *and* red removal - weren't those colors supposed to be good at that? Also, I dont know about you guys, but in the game I play, Wrath of God is still a big problem for green. If you want a totally unsolveable creature, you'll have to give him a Cloak and Dagger.
RWUNumot, the DevastatorUWR - UBDralnu, Lich LordBU - WBURGReaper KingGRUBW - RBMalfegorBR
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
I don't know exactly what you think, but I'm of the opinion that this is just lame card design. Seriously, Morphling was blue only. It was unique. A card that should have stayed unique. Why are they doing this... Aaaarghhh!
Allthough I have to say, if they are payable (price in money) in the end, I would love to make a Shapeshifter deck with 20 'Lings in it.
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
I do honestly not think Superman would be played currently. The creatures are alot more powerful now adays. I mean 4/4, flash, tap all target oppeonts lands, with a minor drawback (well minor in fae) for 4 - or as it is commonly seen: 4/4, timewalk, your oppeont draws a card and may put a land into play, again that minor drawback. Thornling is fine. I mean with shroud he would be nearly imposible to kill at all - which would make him quite annoying.
Parasitic Strix is sick. 2/2 flier is FINE for 2C, even in white (which is a better creature color then blue) - I am talking limit here -, but this got a burn abillity too?!?
Brackwater Elemental seames decent. Flying wouldnt really help that much with all those fea (BB I am looking at you) flying around. It is kind of a punisher card. Target oppeont sacrifices a creature or takes 4 damage.
I think Thornling looks strong though I doubt it will make an appearance in T2 due to it costing 5 instead of 4.
=D
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thornling also has this effect. if you cant deal with him, he will solo you. the fact he needs gross amounts of mana is almost irrelevant, since theres no reason to play spells once you lay him out
Parasitic Strix is, as somebody mentioned, a 3-card combo with Alluren and Cavern Harpy. Very potent indeed!
Dark Temper is a red Dark Banishing, provided you have a black creature in play. Nice card!
Darklit Gargoyle is basically a 3/1 flyer on turn 3, I'ld pick that if I was in Esper colors. For casual this is pretty funny too with toughness boosters like Veteran Armorer.
Sludge Strider seems playable with Esperzoa, that's nice synergy.
Brackwater Elemental is decent fat in blue, unearth is very nice, since you basically force your opponent to leave a sizable blocker back, lest he gets smacked about for 1/5 of his life total out of nowhere (well, out of the graveyard actually).
Suicidal Charge is cute. Nausea + must attack means you will have some juicy blocks to make. It is pretty expensive though at 5 mana.
All in all nice cards!
Next, Thornling has been made into a mythic rare. I can't see a good reason why. It has all of zero effect on the card for constructed formats, except for making it harder to get for lower-budgeted players (like myself; oh no, I have a personal connection.), so it really only makes it have less effect in Limited. In draft, this shouldn't matter too much. Conflux is a small set; you wouldn't see too many Thornlings at rare in your average draft. In Sealed, it still doesn't have a giant effect (as far as I know; anyone know better about this than myself?). So this is either an error (oh how I'm hoping...), or it's a move by WotC intending to make it seem really cool and awesome, which they could have done more effectively by simply making a well-designed card.
Much as I really like Thornling, and the Morphling cycle in general, I think Wizards made some noticeable mistakes, if the card is as it's been revealed to be.
Also apparently a Fan of BtVS Season 8 (These things have no relation to one another; I just thought I’d say them.)
All complete garbage.
It's okay for this to be mythic, because it's definitely not a 4-of in every green deck. But I do like it, and think it will see constructed play (if the above is accurate). A 4/4 for 5 had better have some kickass abilities, especially if it's mythic. The haste (and no, haste is NOT green whatsoever) is pretty pointless on a 4/4 vanilla, unless you're already at 10 or more mana, in which case you should be able to win without this. Who wants a 4/4 haste for 6? Eww. The trample is nice (especially with the pump) but it sucks to have to pay for it. Definitely not as good as the untap of previous 'lings, or shroud. Indestructible is pretty amazing. The pumps are useful but don't feel green to me at all. The card could just say:
3GG
Creature - Shapeshifter
At the beginning of your upkeep, pay or sacrifice this.
Kickass (This creature beats up other creatures, deals damage to your opponent, and is tough to get rid of.)
4/4
In short, it's playable, but doesn't seem very well designed, and doesn't need to be mythic.
.
Morphling is a well remembered card and while Torchling was not played (because it wasn't very good in the environment), it was well received by casual players. This is why Thornling was made to capture that nostalgia of Morphling again.
The design for Thornling was restricted by the fact that they wanted a throback to Morphling. This requires it to have five abilities and while I'm surprised it doesn't have the untap ability along with the +1/-1 and -1/+1 abilities (the three abilities common between Morphling and Torchling), it is definitely familiar for anyone that knows of those two cards and that was part of the point.
As for it having a pretty lame ability (Haste), Torchling not only had a pretty lame ability too, it didn't even see competitive play. If this sees competitive play, it will already be much better than that card.
Thou shalt not frame images with the modern card face
Thou shalt not change rules in vain
Remember the Reserved List to keep it holy
Honor thy Slivers and the symmetry of their abilities
Thou shalt not kill mana burn
Thou shalt not sacrifice depth for accessibility
Thou shalt not steal combat damage from the stack
Thou shalt tell a story through thy cards
All must be one
Dabbling haste into R's allied colors is fine with me.
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Actually haste has tertiary status in green now, as per Rosewater's last color pie revision article, so it's acceptable for green to get haste every so often.
This card would have been awesome if the indestructability ability was shroud instead. As is, it still dies to much of the formats removal (white), and needs 7 mana to be hasty and unsolvable when it arrives. Not so great...
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