(The only arguments I have against poison are the setting, and the lack of interaction with the graveyard.)
True, but then again SHA isn't confirmed to be graveyard-focused. Or is it, and I just missed the memo?
A graveyard set straigt after a creature-/combat-heavy set would make a lot of sense...
Poisonous is the most likely mechanic tipped to return, although personaly I hope it's Threshold.
To the_fish - I'm fairly sre Threshold would rely upon a minimum of seven cards being in your graveyard. Ths is to avoid confusion ("how much is that card's threshold counter again? 3? 7? 12?") ad make the pseudo-keyword easier to remember. See Kinship always asks if you want to look and reveal the top card of your library if it shares a c-type with the creature, and Hellent always checks that you have exactly no cards in hand. It wouldn't be right if new versions of these mechanics relid upon the creature's colour or having exactly one card in hand, would it? The same goes for Threshold.
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So, they will do a different Wizard-cycling dude to fill out that proposed cycle? Why would they do that? That gives Wizards TWO ways to cycle--makes no sense. They would just reprint him like Boldwyr Intimidator, right?
Other cards could have been designed much like the Aethermage.
You're right. If so, they have two likely ways to do it. Cycle of class-cyclers or a cycle of tribe-cyclers. (Wizard-cycling is an example of class-cycling)
Of course, this is complete assumption that they'll do any tribe/class-cycling, or ANY cycling for that matter.
When you look at it, this [Insert Type Here] cycling could be quite good as it could be synergystic to Tribal cards. Hmm.. maybe this is the way Shadowmoor could be connected to Lorwyn's Tribal cards...
To avoid the above problem, they can skip the class-cyclers altogether (Soldier, Wizard, Rogue, Warrior, Shaman) and focus instead on tribe-cyclers for Kithkin, Merfolk, Boggarts, Elementals & Treefolk.
But wait just a sec...here comes that oft' heard refrain. "THERE WILL BE NO TRIBAL IN SHADOWMOOR!!!!!!"
So actually neither cycle is supported. Again.
Now, I actually believe there will be some support of Tribal in Shadowmoor, but it's not a very popular opinion in this part of the site so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they do.
At the end of the day, all of this still doesn't get around the fact that there are no Vedalken in Lorwyn (thus far) and that it makes no sense for them to do a non-Vedalken wizardcycler in its stead.
But Time Spiral, maybe by virtue of being the set it was, really went in a lot of areas with, say, cycling, that could have been expanded and debuted as entire block themes or subthemes. It obviously doesn't preclude them from doing it anymore but it doesn't really lend a lot of weight to the possibility either.
I don't disagree with anything in here. I do think that the "no mana cycling costs" idea is interesting enough that we'd get a lot of even cooler cards out of it than the two in FS, so I don't think it would really be a "been there, done that" kind of feeling if it were to show up....
(By the way, the speculation that it could be poison does line up with a lot of the evidence we have too, if it fits the definition of "mechanic". What do you think about that?)
It would make me cranky because my analysis was wrong (and worry me that if it's in Shadowmoor they'd bring poison back only to half-ass it) but given the current set of information it's definitely a serious possibility.
Now, I actually believe there will be some support of Tribal in Shadowmoor, but it's not a very popular opinion in this part of the site
It's not a very popular opinion because it's in opposition to the information we have about the set, and you haven't really offered up any reason to suggest your speculation is correct and the information we've gathered about Shadowmoor so far is not.
It's not a very popular opinion because it's in opposition to the information we have about the set, and you haven't really offered up any reason to suggest your speculation is correct and the information we've gathered about Shadowmoor so far is not.
Not trying to argue with you but I would say that there will be SOME tribal support. Probably nothing like "All soldiers get +1/+1 and first strike." but maybe something like "Target creature gets +1/+1 for each kithkin creature in your graveyard". My thing is that the obvious way to support Lorwyn is to have the same creature types in the set, which obviously they will be, but just because they have said tribal is NOT the theme of SM doesn't mean there won't be Tribal support cards. Especially with the inter block synergies Wizards has been working in as of late. So even though they say its non tribal it would be jumping the gun to say there will be no tribe specific cards in it... after all in almost every set there are cards that care about creature types.
Furthermore reading these forums I haven't seen any Definitive proof that SM will be a graveyard themed set. The only real argument I have seen is that "It has a horror feel" ... well personally I think that is a very weak argument. It would also be pretty lame if Wizards went with the obvious route and made the Horror Set a Graveyard set. Wizards tends to have ways of surprising us and I wouldn't be surprised if this ended up being something other than a graveyard set. Maybe I have missed something and there is solid evidence, but just from what I have seen I am not convinced yet. Not saying I don't want a graveyard set, i would think it rather cool, but i'm just not 100% on board with it being a graveyard set just because its horror related.
On that note why not go another direction... We know its horror but it seems like a darker horror than anything the game has done before and frankly the most powerful horror films and stories are always psychological. So why not a horror set that focuses on Library manipulation? To me the library has always represented your mind in the game and your hand as well... so why not a psychological horror set that manipulates, mills, re-arranges, and modifies the library and hand. Cycling would certainly fit that set, Madness would as well with whats happening to the Boggarts and Merrow, and you could even argue that delve would fit as well.
All I'm saying is no one is 100% sure yet... and until I am... I won't rule anything out.
Edit: The Psychological Horror feel would ALSO work with how the faeries are on the world of Lorwyn and that would go hand in hand with a Library manipulation concept. They harvest dreams and give them to Oona, that is a terrifying concept because very few things are as private as your dreams, and if Oona is really going to go all out in this as its hinted she might. Than who knows how much worse this practice will get or just what she will do.
IN magic, psycological effects usually manifest themselves in creature kill like Terror or discard effects like Thought Seize. Milling isn't usually associated with scaryness. Milling is more associated with graveyard craziness, though.
I think that Shadowmoor will have a graveyard theme just because of all the cards in lorwn that have to do with the number of race/class types in the graveyard. Many of these are just enters graveyard triggers, but others like Countryside Crusher or elvish eulogist or even kithink mourncaller, these cards count the number of certain type of card in your grave yard or trigger on other cards going into your graveyard. This leads me to belive that self mill will be big in Shadowmoor and that creature sacrificing will be huge, too.
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It seems we might be past guessing what the pics on the pac are. But for some reason I cant get it out of my head that the green bloby looking creature looks like a Lhurgoyf.
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Not trying to argue with you but I would say that there will be SOME tribal support. Probably nothing like "All soldiers get +1/+1 and first strike." but maybe something like "Target creature gets +1/+1 for each kithkin creature in your graveyard".
Nope. There will be zero cards like that. Shadowmoor is not a tribal set.
In general, outside of the two tribal blocks (and the blocks like Kamigawa with a significant tribal subtheme) the tribal effects we see are limited to Lords, something that we're quite certain not to see in Shadowmoor. Cards like this would be wasted and pointless in Shadowmoor -- they wouldn't play well in draft (its creatures won't be strictly limited to the Lorwyn types, so it'd be harder to assemble a "tribe" deck), they'd take away valuable slots from Shadowmoor's theme (Lorwyn shows us how tight the space is in a two-set block), and they'd stick out like a sore thumb (the same way randomly printing a card like Entomb or Annul in Lorwyn would have.)
Any speculation that requires more Lorwyn cards appearing in Shadowmoor block should really be tossed aside the same way that (say) speculation about Suspend cards in Lorwyn would have been.
It would also be pretty lame if Wizards went with the obvious route and made the Horror Set a Graveyard set.
No, it would be fitting. Block themes and block settings should line up, rather than creating cognitive dissonance by pulling in two different directions. What does a "tribal" theme fit with? A faerie tale fantasy world where different races of magical beings interact with one another. Similarly, what does a "graveyard" theme fit with? A world of horror where darkness and dead things are part of the everyday experience of being there.
So why not a horror set that focuses on Library manipulation?
Library manipulation isn't a good theme for a block, as constant searching/card rearrangement slows the game down immensely, and mechanics like self-mill are incredibly hated by the playerbase.
I kinda noticed that the kithkin seem to have that same air that the elves had in lorwyn. Also, that lone elf shown in one box looks kinda pathetic and meek . Role reversal perhaps? Scheeming, planing, malevolent boggarts? Ferral merrow? Horrors instead of elementals? Fun fun fun.
As far as mechanics are concerned, the only tie to Lorwyn I'm expecting is for the creatures to have the same creature types, but there won't be any tribal mechanics in the set. I wouldn't even be surprised if they changed the colors of each race.
Not really the same. It's a creature (i.e. something that's always useful) in a tribe that has call for a lot of little random spell-like effects.
The possibility that a creature in Shadowmoor will have some minor tribal effect (or which hose tribal effects, the way Offalsnout hoses graveyard strategies) is higher than random tribal instants simply because a creature always has a use. (A little bit of tribal sneaks into actively tribe-unfriendly blocks like Ravnica this way -- see Ratcatcher.)
It's still a pretty low chance, though, since tribal is so linear. Anything that works on a tribal basis won't have any support from other Shadowmoor cards, which means it'd be useless in limited formats or Shadowmoor-only constructed -- where would be the benefit in printing it?
I think that graveyard theme is supported by several Lorwyn mechanics. Evoke, for example, and Reinforce - both ways to get an effect from a card, and then put it into graveyard (all Evokers, and most of Reinforce cards are permanents). Those two mechanics might work nice in a graveyard block.
Not really the same. It's a creature (i.e. something that's always useful) in a tribe that has call for a lot of little random spell-like effects.
The possibility that a creature in Shadowmoor will have some minor tribal effect (or which hose tribal effects, the way Offalsnout hoses graveyard strategies) is higher than random tribal instants simply because a creature always has a use. (A little bit of tribal sneaks into actively tribe-unfriendly blocks like Ravnica this way -- see Ratcatcher.)
It's still a pretty low chance, though, since tribal is so linear. Anything that works on a tribal basis won't have any support from other Shadowmoor cards, which means it'd be useless in limited formats or Shadowmoor-only constructed -- where would be the benefit in printing it?
Lords wont be that useless in limited, mainly because I do belive that stuff about mostly creature types from Lorwyn (In a non tribal block the creature types aint that important so they might as well give some inter block stuff with it).
AFAIK there will be no Shadowmoor-only constructed formats supported directly by Wizards and they would therefor properly prefer that you got stuff from both mini blocks in your block decks (like they would properly prefer "to throw a bone" with some good elves, kitkins etc. and since they prefer to make a lot of tier 2 cards (over a few tier 1) they will properly want ppl to have some choice in it - which meanes pretty many).
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The strongest possibility is Threshold and Cycling since it's involving graveyard. But I really hope it'll be buyback... and hope WotC to reprint CAPSIZE and CORPSE DANCE...
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You know, I love how everyone is so damn dead set on the idea that shadowmoor is graveyard themed just because its a dark set. For all we know, its not, and MaRo is reading all of the posts by you guys tearing up everybody who doesn't buy into your shared conviction that its "Obviously a graveyard theme." Murphy help us that WoTC does something origional and unpredictable.
Posters: "Dee dee dee!! Its a dark set! The theme must be graveyard! What else is darker than that?! Cause depending on the graveyard for gameplay is hardcore and evil!"
Seriously guys, we have no idea. It could be anything.
I would expect to see Tarmogoyf reprinted in Shadowmoor. It is timeshifted form the future, and I have heard hints from a friend at wizards...
And also rumors of a new planeswalker:
Planeswalker [2BB]
4 loyalty counters
+1- each player sacrifices a permanent
-2- put a 4/4 [some creature type] token into play
-X- Target player loses X life
I would expect to see Tarmogoyf reprinted in Shadowmoor. It is timeshifted form the future, and I have heard hints from a friend at wizards...
And also rumors of a new planeswalker:
Planeswalker [2BB]
4 loyalty counters
+1- each player sacrifices a permanent
-2- put a 4/4 [some creature type] token into play
-X- Target player loses X life
You just made me mess my pants with a single word: Planeswalker. Although, I'm not so sure that I like the one you just said. Seems pretty cool, but i don't really care how good he is, as long as they have more planewalkers
I love the color palate for this set, the dreary green is just great.
Agreed! The art so far is amazing. That green elemental thing looks like it has a skeletonish face, which means it's probably something pretty evil.
And yes, pretty high chance that the awesome picture of that woman among the flowers is indeed Oona. If so, she has some awesome art... *sigh.
This art is giving me orgasms.
Originally Posted by mysterygoo I would expect to see Tarmogoyf reprinted in Shadowmoor. It is timeshifted form the future, and I have heard hints from a friend at wizards...
And also rumors of a new planeswalker:
Planeswalker [2BB]
4 loyalty counters
+1- each player sacrifices a permanent
-2- put a 4/4 [some creature type] token into play
-X- Target player loses X life
Huh? Unless you actually heard this somewhere, then make a new thread for it. Even though it sounds completely bogus. +1: Each player sacrifices a permanant is just broken. O_o
And even though I don't take Maro's "We won't be printing any more planeswalkers soon" too seriously, I don't think he meant in Shadowmoor. It would be nice to get a cycle of Walkers every big set though.
Anyways, I dont call fake ever, but this honestly seems way too early, and a little too vague, to be anything but hogwash.
I really really hope that Goyf is never reprinted...or if it is, that the same set reprints stp, mana drain, and necro.
Oh cmon, it's not that broken (and I don't think Swords is hideously broken either, not like the drain, or necro). It's just REALLY good. It hasn't warped the format at all imho, in fact, Warrior Elves don't bother with Goyf (it's usually mono green to boot), as it's just not as good as Vanquisher, Collossus, etc. If anything, Goyf does what green should do, which is make big creatures. GG would have been a better cost though.
And personally, I was saying that they should reprint Goyf now, and get it over with. Reprinting it now in a graveyard themed set would not only give it perfect flavor (not to mention the dreary look of Goyf's picture matches the art in this set), but since it's still a tribal block, it makes Goyf less powerful, like in the previous statement about Elves.
It's not like reprinting it would make it more or less legal in all the formats it's currently legal in. Sheesh, people don't understand that even if cards are rediculously good, there is still a scale, and a fine line before venturing into broken territory.
True, but then again SHA isn't confirmed to be graveyard-focused. Or is it, and I just missed the memo?
A graveyard set straigt after a creature-/combat-heavy set would make a lot of sense...
Poisonous is the most likely mechanic tipped to return, although personaly I hope it's Threshold.
To the_fish - I'm fairly sre Threshold would rely upon a minimum of seven cards being in your graveyard. Ths is to avoid confusion ("how much is that card's threshold counter again? 3? 7? 12?") ad make the pseudo-keyword easier to remember. See Kinship always asks if you want to look and reveal the top card of your library if it shares a c-type with the creature, and Hellent always checks that you have exactly no cards in hand. It wouldn't be right if new versions of these mechanics relid upon the creature's colour or having exactly one card in hand, would it? The same goes for Threshold.
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When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
So, they will do a different Wizard-cycling dude to fill out that proposed cycle? Why would they do that? That gives Wizards TWO ways to cycle--makes no sense. They would just reprint him like Boldwyr Intimidator, right?
You're right. If so, they have two likely ways to do it. Cycle of class-cyclers or a cycle of tribe-cyclers. (Wizard-cycling is an example of class-cycling)
Of course, this is complete assumption that they'll do any tribe/class-cycling, or ANY cycling for that matter.
To avoid the above problem, they can skip the class-cyclers altogether (Soldier, Wizard, Rogue, Warrior, Shaman) and focus instead on tribe-cyclers for Kithkin, Merfolk, Boggarts, Elementals & Treefolk.
But wait just a sec...here comes that oft' heard refrain. "THERE WILL BE NO TRIBAL IN SHADOWMOOR!!!!!!"
So actually neither cycle is supported. Again.
Now, I actually believe there will be some support of Tribal in Shadowmoor, but it's not a very popular opinion in this part of the site so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they do.
At the end of the day, all of this still doesn't get around the fact that there are no Vedalken in Lorwyn (thus far) and that it makes no sense for them to do a non-Vedalken wizardcycler in its stead.
Tough nut to crack. I love this time of year. .
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I don't disagree with anything in here. I do think that the "no mana cycling costs" idea is interesting enough that we'd get a lot of even cooler cards out of it than the two in FS, so I don't think it would really be a "been there, done that" kind of feeling if it were to show up....
It would make me cranky because my analysis was wrong (and worry me that if it's in Shadowmoor they'd bring poison back only to half-ass it) but given the current set of information it's definitely a serious possibility.
It's not a very popular opinion because it's in opposition to the information we have about the set, and you haven't really offered up any reason to suggest your speculation is correct and the information we've gathered about Shadowmoor so far is not.
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What about tribal threshold. Like have 7 of a named tribe spell to get a bonus.
Also I be for some cool cards making you return from the grave like the mechanic from Coldsnap I think was called Recover.
Last it be nice we get better buybacks or even flashback spells.
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Not trying to argue with you but I would say that there will be SOME tribal support. Probably nothing like "All soldiers get +1/+1 and first strike." but maybe something like "Target creature gets +1/+1 for each kithkin creature in your graveyard". My thing is that the obvious way to support Lorwyn is to have the same creature types in the set, which obviously they will be, but just because they have said tribal is NOT the theme of SM doesn't mean there won't be Tribal support cards. Especially with the inter block synergies Wizards has been working in as of late. So even though they say its non tribal it would be jumping the gun to say there will be no tribe specific cards in it... after all in almost every set there are cards that care about creature types.
Furthermore reading these forums I haven't seen any Definitive proof that SM will be a graveyard themed set. The only real argument I have seen is that "It has a horror feel" ... well personally I think that is a very weak argument. It would also be pretty lame if Wizards went with the obvious route and made the Horror Set a Graveyard set. Wizards tends to have ways of surprising us and I wouldn't be surprised if this ended up being something other than a graveyard set. Maybe I have missed something and there is solid evidence, but just from what I have seen I am not convinced yet. Not saying I don't want a graveyard set, i would think it rather cool, but i'm just not 100% on board with it being a graveyard set just because its horror related.
On that note why not go another direction... We know its horror but it seems like a darker horror than anything the game has done before and frankly the most powerful horror films and stories are always psychological. So why not a horror set that focuses on Library manipulation? To me the library has always represented your mind in the game and your hand as well... so why not a psychological horror set that manipulates, mills, re-arranges, and modifies the library and hand. Cycling would certainly fit that set, Madness would as well with whats happening to the Boggarts and Merrow, and you could even argue that delve would fit as well.
All I'm saying is no one is 100% sure yet... and until I am... I won't rule anything out.
Edit: The Psychological Horror feel would ALSO work with how the faeries are on the world of Lorwyn and that would go hand in hand with a Library manipulation concept. They harvest dreams and give them to Oona, that is a terrifying concept because very few things are as private as your dreams, and if Oona is really going to go all out in this as its hinted she might. Than who knows how much worse this practice will get or just what she will do.
RB Olivia Voldaren RB
GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons GB
BWR Queen Marchesa BWR
RW Anya, Merciless Angel RW
UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster UW
UB Wydwen, The Biting Gale UB
GU Momir Vig, simic visionary GU
WG Karametra, God of Harvests WG
WUBSydri, Galvanic GeniusWUB
I think that Shadowmoor will have a graveyard theme just because of all the cards in lorwn that have to do with the number of race/class types in the graveyard. Many of these are just enters graveyard triggers, but others like Countryside Crusher or elvish eulogist or even kithink mourncaller, these cards count the number of certain type of card in your grave yard or trigger on other cards going into your graveyard. This leads me to belive that self mill will be big in Shadowmoor and that creature sacrificing will be huge, too.
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Nope. There will be zero cards like that. Shadowmoor is not a tribal set.
In general, outside of the two tribal blocks (and the blocks like Kamigawa with a significant tribal subtheme) the tribal effects we see are limited to Lords, something that we're quite certain not to see in Shadowmoor. Cards like this would be wasted and pointless in Shadowmoor -- they wouldn't play well in draft (its creatures won't be strictly limited to the Lorwyn types, so it'd be harder to assemble a "tribe" deck), they'd take away valuable slots from Shadowmoor's theme (Lorwyn shows us how tight the space is in a two-set block), and they'd stick out like a sore thumb (the same way randomly printing a card like Entomb or Annul in Lorwyn would have.)
Any speculation that requires more Lorwyn cards appearing in Shadowmoor block should really be tossed aside the same way that (say) speculation about Suspend cards in Lorwyn would have been.
No, it would be fitting. Block themes and block settings should line up, rather than creating cognitive dissonance by pulling in two different directions. What does a "tribal" theme fit with? A faerie tale fantasy world where different races of magical beings interact with one another. Similarly, what does a "graveyard" theme fit with? A world of horror where darkness and dead things are part of the everyday experience of being there.
Library manipulation isn't a good theme for a block, as constant searching/card rearrangement slows the game down immensely, and mechanics like self-mill are incredibly hated by the playerbase.
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As far as mechanics are concerned, the only tie to Lorwyn I'm expecting is for the creatures to have the same creature types, but there won't be any tribal mechanics in the set. I wouldn't even be surprised if they changed the colors of each race.
Not really the same. It's a creature (i.e. something that's always useful) in a tribe that has call for a lot of little random spell-like effects.
The possibility that a creature in Shadowmoor will have some minor tribal effect (or which hose tribal effects, the way Offalsnout hoses graveyard strategies) is higher than random tribal instants simply because a creature always has a use. (A little bit of tribal sneaks into actively tribe-unfriendly blocks like Ravnica this way -- see Ratcatcher.)
It's still a pretty low chance, though, since tribal is so linear. Anything that works on a tribal basis won't have any support from other Shadowmoor cards, which means it'd be useless in limited formats or Shadowmoor-only constructed -- where would be the benefit in printing it?
Modern: Storm
Lords wont be that useless in limited, mainly because I do belive that stuff about mostly creature types from Lorwyn (In a non tribal block the creature types aint that important so they might as well give some inter block stuff with it).
AFAIK there will be no Shadowmoor-only constructed formats supported directly by Wizards and they would therefor properly prefer that you got stuff from both mini blocks in your block decks (like they would properly prefer "to throw a bone" with some good elves, kitkins etc. and since they prefer to make a lot of tier 2 cards (over a few tier 1) they will properly want ppl to have some choice in it - which meanes pretty many).
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I never even considered that. Jesus, you're right.
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Posters: "Dee dee dee!! Its a dark set! The theme must be graveyard! What else is darker than that?! Cause depending on the graveyard for gameplay is hardcore and evil!"
Seriously guys, we have no idea. It could be anything.
And also rumors of a new planeswalker:
Planeswalker [2BB]
4 loyalty counters
+1- each player sacrifices a permanent
-2- put a 4/4 [some creature type] token into play
-X- Target player loses X life
You just made me mess my pants with a single word: Planeswalker. Although, I'm not so sure that I like the one you just said. Seems pretty cool, but i don't really care how good he is, as long as they have more planewalkers
Agreed! The art so far is amazing. That green elemental thing looks like it has a skeletonish face, which means it's probably something pretty evil.
And yes, pretty high chance that the awesome picture of that woman among the flowers is indeed Oona. If so, she has some awesome art... *sigh.
This art is giving me orgasms.
Huh? Unless you actually heard this somewhere, then make a new thread for it. Even though it sounds completely bogus. +1: Each player sacrifices a permanant is just broken. O_o
And even though I don't take Maro's "We won't be printing any more planeswalkers soon" too seriously, I don't think he meant in Shadowmoor. It would be nice to get a cycle of Walkers every big set though.
Anyways, I dont call fake ever, but this honestly seems way too early, and a little too vague, to be anything but hogwash.
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Oh cmon, it's not that broken (and I don't think Swords is hideously broken either, not like the drain, or necro). It's just REALLY good. It hasn't warped the format at all imho, in fact, Warrior Elves don't bother with Goyf (it's usually mono green to boot), as it's just not as good as Vanquisher, Collossus, etc. If anything, Goyf does what green should do, which is make big creatures. GG would have been a better cost though.
And personally, I was saying that they should reprint Goyf now, and get it over with. Reprinting it now in a graveyard themed set would not only give it perfect flavor (not to mention the dreary look of Goyf's picture matches the art in this set), but since it's still a tribal block, it makes Goyf less powerful, like in the previous statement about Elves.
It's not like reprinting it would make it more or less legal in all the formats it's currently legal in. Sheesh, people don't understand that even if cards are rediculously good, there is still a scale, and a fine line before venturing into broken territory.
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