Ok heres the most basic way to explain how player planeswalker are different powerwise from planeswalker cards.
Planeswalker cards are the new school planeswalkers.They are like mortals,but can traverse the blind eternities and explore new worlds.
Us as Planeswalkers are the oldschool type of planeswalker.(even if you haven't played the game that long)We have vast amounts of raw power,you know haveing like a jillion lands in our collections.We summon many creatures from the vast variety of worlds we've visited,again our collection.We alter the fabric of reality on a whim.Not even going to point out all the cards that do stuff in game.
Ok so the old school PW took more then a simple explanation,but i hope you get my point.
We can't be vindicated,boomeranged and such,because we're basicly the demi-gods of the multiverse.It takes the whole power of one world or the combined power of multipe worlds to take us down. I.E.-a players deck
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Timmies drive me nuts. Seriously...why are we even hashing this out from a flavour perspective? Flavour is only something they lay over the math to make it a game and not a pop quiz. Flavour is by far the secondary concern when they assemble these sets, when they made this game. After all, if you're writing the story, you can make ANYTHING happen. What drives the game and creates the cards is the math and mechanics behind it. And game balance dictates that there must be answers to any given threat...and more...those answers must be more abundant and easier to come across than any given threat. This is what balances the game...any given card/mechanic/bit of math must be neutralizable by others. It creates PARITY...which is what a good game designer wants. They want there to be MANY different decks played competitively, all with a different purpose and goal, but none so much more powerful than any few others that it imbalances the environment. Applying this to "PW.dec", we can't let the flavour of what we expect a PW to be cloud our good judgement when deciding what a PW will actually be. They can't imbalance the game..plain and simple...or the game ends. And having them be cheap, powerful, and nigh-indestructible (BROKEN) will do just that.
So let's be realistic, shall we? Think mechanics first and flavour second.
To me, he entire complaint that 'walker cards will be able to be Vindicated, but 'walker players can't boils down to this: Grizzly Bears die by getting Shocked, but River Bears don't. I mean, they're both green Bear creatures! It makes no sense! It's not like one is possibly more powerful than the other!
If the grizzly bear lives on Endor, you must acquit!
I think the 'you're more powerful' is a likely explanation.
Basically, we know that the old 'walkers were still very powerful (see Nicol Bolas at the end of FS novel, who I don't believe has been brought up) while the new ones have all the not-so-itty bitty living space but none of the phenomenal cosmic powers.
Timmies drive me nuts. Seriously...why are we even hashing this out from a flavour perspective? Flavour is only something they lay over the math to make it a game and not a pop quiz. Flavour is by far the secondary concern when they assemble these sets, when they made this game. After all, if you're writing the story, you can make ANYTHING happen. What drives the game and creates the cards is the math and mechanics behind it. And game balance dictates that there must be answers to any given threat...and more...those answers must be more abundant and easier to come across than any given threat. This is what balances the game...any given card/mechanic/bit of math must be neutralizable by others. It creates PARITY...which is what a good game designer wants. They want there to be MANY different decks played competitively, all with a different purpose and goal, but none so much more powerful than any few others that it imbalances the environment. Applying this to "PW.dec", we can't let the flavour of what we expect a PW to be cloud our good judgement when deciding what a PW will actually be. They can't imbalance the game..plain and simple...or the game ends. And having them be cheap, powerful, and nigh-indestructible (BROKEN) will do just that.
So let's be realistic, shall we? Think mechanics first and flavour second.
Cheers,
Austin
You give R&D entirely too much credit if you honestly think 'walkers didn't come into existance because of MaRo sitting down at a table with the rest of R&D and saying, "How can we make a cardtype to represent planeswalkers?"
MaRo breaks rules. Its what he does. This is simply the latest rule he has decided to break. And like every other rule he's broken, he decided to break it first before he figured out how he was going to break it. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work the guy does, but this is how he works, or at least how he claims to work.
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"One skilled at battle takes a stand in the ground of no defeat
And so does not lose the enemy's defeat.
Therefore, the victorious military is first victorious and after that does battle.
The defeated military first does battle and after that seeks victory."
@ OldschoolMTG: Ever heard of top-down design? lol
Yeah, it was either a permanent or some other wacky zone that would cause rules problems. Meh. Not too much of a surprise. Of course when they tell us they will print MPR versions of the power nine... Wait did I just type that? :shifty eyes:
To me, he entire complaint that 'walker cards will be able to be Vindicated, but 'walker players can't boils down to this: Grizzly Bears die by getting Shocked, but River Bears don't. I mean, they're both green Bear creatures! It makes no sense! It's not like one is possibly more powerful than the other!
Entirely different matter. One card is more powerful p/t-wise than the other, sure, but they still function as the same card type, and are affected by the same effects that affect that card type. You can't possibly think that, if planeswalker cards are indeed permanents, they will hold nearly as much similarities with the other planeswalkers (the players).
Sorry if this is a bad place to post this, but my friend said me something about planeswalkers or legendary creatures in Lorwyn (he said "special" creature):
Planeswalker or Legendary creature will put creature token (2/2 or 3/3) into play for cheap cost (maybe for tap or one mana and tap), I think this can be fake (too powerful) , but he is usually serious. I ask him for something else but he don't answer yet. He is from French developer.
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By John Avon
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
Seems like a fairly easy solution to the vindicate/boomerang problem (which doesn't really seem like a problem anyway).
There are multiple simple design solutions that still allow for parity; it really depends on the power level, design and function of the planeswalkers.
To Malley: lol, we both posted about shroud at the same time
I think planeswalkers are not really permanents.
MaRo said "permanent" perhaps because they are like permanents (they have a controller, their abilities work,...) except they are in a special zone instead of in play.
I think people are reading a little too much into MaRo's comments, but Boomerang on a planeswalker doesn't really bother me.
One reason you (the player) can't be Boomeranged is that a game of MtG is supposed to represent a duel. The permanents you put in play (including, presumably, planeswalkers) have been summoned, tapped into, etc. through some type of magical effect. Boomerang undoes whatever effect brought them into play (the duel).
You, as a player, have not been summoned or otherwise brought into existence by magic, so there is no such effect for Boomerang and similar spells to undo. Something which dismissed the player would basically end the duel.
I think people are reading a little too much into MaRo's comments, but Boomerang on a planeswalker doesn't really bother me.
One reason you (the player) can't be Boomeranged is that a game of MtG is supposed to represent a duel. The permanents you put in play (including, presumably, planeswalkers) have been summoned, tapped into, etc. through some type of magical effect. Boomerang undoes whatever effect brought them into play (the duel).
You, as a player, have not been summoned or otherwise brought into existence by magic, so there is no such effect for Boomerang and similar spells to undo. Something which dismissed the player would basically end the duel.
Dismissing a player from play could be flavored on to a Orim's Chant or Time Stop effect, I guess.
Seems like a fairly easy solution to the vindicate/boomerang problem
No. This will not happen either.
Because it limits design in a pointless way; because it is not easily grokable; because vindicate/boomerang aren't problems - they are solutions to the design problem of planeswalkers needing answers that are already available to older blocks; because shorud is an expensive ability that makes PWers harder to design at playable costs with good abilities; and because it makes PWers inherently uninteractive, which is fine for individual cards, not for an entire type.
Another thing, spells that target players but not permanents will not be able to target planeswalkers. To do so would be the most insane power-level errata in the history of magic; it would be confusing to new players (who are not hung-up on this 'planeswalker=player' nonsense); and there is no concievable design benefit that can't be achieved a better way.
I would also like to believe that each player would be restricted to a single planswalker at a time
Why?
I've been ranting about many of the crazier suggestions, but this one just has me baffled.
I can understand why Planeswalkers might often have the supertype 'legendary'. Why would you want Planeswalkers to have any additional limitations of this sort? And why would you believe it necessary?
I think the problem is being hung up on the idea that PWer cards are as powerful as players.
they can't possibly be.
Imagine the spell...
Help!
Sorcery
Target MtG player joins the game as your ally.
...now, the rules could support this fairly easily, but try and cost it.
It might as well say 'you win the game', so I'd guess it would be something like 10UUU.
Planeswalkers won't all cost 10UUU for obvious reasons, so the trick here is to let go of the idea that their power is comparable with yours.
Planeswalkers are not all equal.
I personally would not get out of bed in the morning for 3BB. But it's enough to make Ms Vess my devoted slave. Does this not demonstate that PWers on cards are not nearly as powerful as you?
That implies that there is no additional cost that we don't know about yet.
You're right, it does imply that, and for good reason: we're assuming these cards are designed to be playable in actual Magic games (with play costs that are reasonable) rather than janky garbage.
People need to get past this desire for planeswalkers to be "special" in all of these narrow, story-derived ways. They won't all have shroud; they won't have crazy additional play costs; they won't live in a special zone or be played from your sideboard or have their own hands.
Charlequin!! Finally..someone who sees the light!! "The game" (MTG..its past, present, and future) has to come first. The mechanics, the math...they're all far more important than the flavour. As I said..when you're writing the story, you can make anything happen, so flavour is always the secondary concern to design. So then..the card can't break "the game" AND if you want to please your customer base, the card MUST be playable (at least some of them...), and preferably, playable in constructed formats. (including the eternal formats...) Especially in the beginning, you want these to be the cards that appear in T8 decklists...(since the Timmies are already excited merely by the "coolness" of PW's...you now have to involve the Johnnies and the Spikes..and nothing gets them going like T8 decklists...;) ) everywhere. However, basic game design dictates that they can't be "too good" or you ruin everything. It's a fine line to walk, which is why I think these guys have been sitting on the shelf for a good LONG time..just waiting for the moment when they could work and NOT ruin the game.
Honestly, how much more "Game-warping" can a card get for 2UUU than Teferi, who pretty much completely changes the game when he drops? And he's not even a "Planeswalker" in the current sense.
Also the whole thing with PW's will have auto-shroud is the silliest thing I've ever heard of. You're attempting to justify a top-down design by stating that PW's should be second players, but you want to give them auto-shroud. What player in the history of Magic do you know of that has auto-shroud?
But more I think about it, more I find hard to think about a way which will make Planeswalke play differently than any other permanent type.
That can be as simple as being the only permanent that does not have a direct removal spell for it. There is no Stone Rain, Dark Benashing, Naturalize or Disenchant for plainswalkers. This automatically makes them play different than any other permanent. Even making them have the world enchantment rule of 1 planswalker on the field at a time, would make them play different. The simplest answer is usually the correct one.
It's a new card type so I'm under the impression it's a new supertype but even that runs into problems.
Jace Beleren Planeswalker - Human Wizard
Worded like this, you can have multiple copies in play unless the text box said something. They also would avoid any and all removal except things that say "target permanent".
Jace Beleren Legendary Planeswalker - Human Wizard
Now you've solved the multiple copies problem but still can't get rid of the guy that easily..which may be what Wizards wants. This I think is the most reasonable version.
Jace Beleren Legendary Planeswalker Creature - Human Wizard
This is just too much...plain and simple.
Look, it's the first card type they've added since Alpha. Wizards has a valued interest in the success of planeswalker cards or they're going to look pretty foolish wouldn't you think? The cards are going to be great, they basically have to be because it's one of the selling points of the set. That being said, I think they're going to be stupid good and obviously the chase rares of the block. I'm looking forward to reading more about them.
Amusing that I got misquoted a little earlier, when I said "how about all planeswalkers have shroud" and then commented on the vindicate/boomerang issue (which is not an issue as I see it ... as I also stated).
Perhaps planeswalkers can be affected by targeting, perhaps not ... The point is that there is easy design space in MTG to allow for either way--even from a creative perspective.
If a player is a planeswalker and is affected by a one mana spell like shock, what's the big deal of making a planeswalker card affected by a small number of permanent-affecting spells (like a 2-mana boomerang)?
It certainly seems to fit with the current in-game treatment of planeswalkers.
maybe this planeswalkers are kinda like avatars like in magic online that do something game changing or have tons of activated abilities or triggered ones.
and there will be a new place for it
Because they are trying to sell a product. I am 100% sure that the effect of plainswalkers can be recreated on a different card type, such as enchantment. The reason why they need a new type is the same reason for the hype, to sell product.
Because they are trying to sell a product. I am 100% sure that the effect of plainswalkers can be recreated on a different card type, such as enchantment. The reason why they need a new type is the same reason for the hype, to sell product.
Yeah, i believe planeswalker will be something like that
Planeswalker cards are the new school planeswalkers.They are like mortals,but can traverse the blind eternities and explore new worlds.
Us as Planeswalkers are the oldschool type of planeswalker.(even if you haven't played the game that long)We have vast amounts of raw power,you know haveing like a jillion lands in our collections.We summon many creatures from the vast variety of worlds we've visited,again our collection.We alter the fabric of reality on a whim.Not even going to point out all the cards that do stuff in game.
Ok so the old school PW took more then a simple explanation,but i hope you get my point.
We can't be vindicated,boomeranged and such,because we're basicly the demi-gods of the multiverse.It takes the whole power of one world or the combined power of multipe worlds to take us down. I.E.-a players deck
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
So let's be realistic, shall we? Think mechanics first and flavour second.
Cheers,
Austin
If the grizzly bear lives on Endor, you must acquit!
I think the 'you're more powerful' is a likely explanation.
Basically, we know that the old 'walkers were still very powerful (see Nicol Bolas at the end of FS novel, who I don't believe has been brought up) while the new ones have all the not-so-itty bitty living space but none of the phenomenal cosmic powers.
MaRo breaks rules. Its what he does. This is simply the latest rule he has decided to break. And like every other rule he's broken, he decided to break it first before he figured out how he was going to break it. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work the guy does, but this is how he works, or at least how he claims to work.
And so does not lose the enemy's defeat.
Therefore, the victorious military is first victorious and after that does battle.
The defeated military first does battle and after that seeks victory."
Yeah, it was either a permanent or some other wacky zone that would cause rules problems. Meh. Not too much of a surprise. Of course when they tell us they will print MPR versions of the power nine... Wait did I just type that? :shifty eyes:
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Planeswalker or Legendary creature will put creature token (2/2 or 3/3) into play for cheap cost (maybe for tap or one mana and tap), I think this can be fake (too powerful) , but he is usually serious. I ask him for something else but he don't answer yet. He is from French developer.
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
GONZO
Genius, fast, and long eared.
Seems like a fairly easy solution to the vindicate/boomerang problem (which doesn't really seem like a problem anyway).
There are multiple simple design solutions that still allow for parity; it really depends on the power level, design and function of the planeswalkers.
To Malley: lol, we both posted about shroud at the same time
I think people are reading a little too much into MaRo's comments, but Boomerang on a planeswalker doesn't really bother me.
One reason you (the player) can't be Boomeranged is that a game of MtG is supposed to represent a duel. The permanents you put in play (including, presumably, planeswalkers) have been summoned, tapped into, etc. through some type of magical effect. Boomerang undoes whatever effect brought them into play (the duel).
You, as a player, have not been summoned or otherwise brought into existence by magic, so there is no such effect for Boomerang and similar spells to undo. Something which dismissed the player would basically end the duel.
Dismissing a player from play could be flavored on to a Orim's Chant or Time Stop effect, I guess.
No. This will not happen either.
Because it limits design in a pointless way; because it is not easily grokable; because vindicate/boomerang aren't problems - they are solutions to the design problem of planeswalkers needing answers that are already available to older blocks; because shorud is an expensive ability that makes PWers harder to design at playable costs with good abilities; and because it makes PWers inherently uninteractive, which is fine for individual cards, not for an entire type.
Another thing, spells that target players but not permanents will not be able to target planeswalkers. To do so would be the most insane power-level errata in the history of magic; it would be confusing to new players (who are not hung-up on this 'planeswalker=player' nonsense); and there is no concievable design benefit that can't be achieved a better way.
Why?
I've been ranting about many of the crazier suggestions, but this one just has me baffled.
I can understand why Planeswalkers might often have the supertype 'legendary'. Why would you want Planeswalkers to have any additional limitations of this sort? And why would you believe it necessary?
they can't possibly be.
Imagine the spell...
Help!
Sorcery
Target MtG player joins the game as your ally.
...now, the rules could support this fairly easily, but try and cost it.
It might as well say 'you win the game', so I'd guess it would be something like 10UUU.
Planeswalkers won't all cost 10UUU for obvious reasons, so the trick here is to let go of the idea that their power is comparable with yours.
Planeswalkers are not all equal.
I personally would not get out of bed in the morning for 3BB. But it's enough to make Ms Vess my devoted slave. Does this not demonstate that PWers on cards are not nearly as powerful as you?
You're right, it does imply that, and for good reason: we're assuming these cards are designed to be playable in actual Magic games (with play costs that are reasonable) rather than janky garbage.
People need to get past this desire for planeswalkers to be "special" in all of these narrow, story-derived ways. They won't all have shroud; they won't have crazy additional play costs; they won't live in a special zone or be played from your sideboard or have their own hands.
Cheers,
Austin
Also the whole thing with PW's will have auto-shroud is the silliest thing I've ever heard of. You're attempting to justify a top-down design by stating that PW's should be second players, but you want to give them auto-shroud. What player in the history of Magic do you know of that has auto-shroud?
Right.
Duh.
-E
That can be as simple as being the only permanent that does not have a direct removal spell for it. There is no Stone Rain, Dark Benashing, Naturalize or Disenchant for plainswalkers. This automatically makes them play different than any other permanent. Even making them have the world enchantment rule of 1 planswalker on the field at a time, would make them play different. The simplest answer is usually the correct one.
Jace Beleren
Planeswalker - Human Wizard
Worded like this, you can have multiple copies in play unless the text box said something. They also would avoid any and all removal except things that say "target permanent".
Jace Beleren
Legendary Planeswalker - Human Wizard
Now you've solved the multiple copies problem but still can't get rid of the guy that easily..which may be what Wizards wants. This I think is the most reasonable version.
Jace Beleren
Legendary Planeswalker Creature - Human Wizard
This is just too much...plain and simple.
Look, it's the first card type they've added since Alpha. Wizards has a valued interest in the success of planeswalker cards or they're going to look pretty foolish wouldn't you think? The cards are going to be great, they basically have to be because it's one of the selling points of the set. That being said, I think they're going to be stupid good and obviously the chase rares of the block. I'm looking forward to reading more about them.
EDH:
Karn v3.0
Perhaps planeswalkers can be affected by targeting, perhaps not ... The point is that there is easy design space in MTG to allow for either way--even from a creative perspective.
If a player is a planeswalker and is affected by a one mana spell like shock, what's the big deal of making a planeswalker card affected by a small number of permanent-affecting spells (like a 2-mana boomerang)?
It certainly seems to fit with the current in-game treatment of planeswalkers.
If so, apologies, yours was just the most consise version of that suggestion I saw.
Not a problem.
and there will be a new place for it
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
B"I have seen the future. It does not include you"B
Because they are trying to sell a product. I am 100% sure that the effect of plainswalkers can be recreated on a different card type, such as enchantment. The reason why they need a new type is the same reason for the hype, to sell product.
Yeah, i believe planeswalker will be something like that
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
B"I have seen the future. It does not include you"B