Champion's Victory says when it can be played. Since this is not the normal time for playing sorceries, the Golden rule kicks in and makes it playable during opponent's declare attackers step anyway. I imagine that the other restrictions on playing sorceries still apply (like that the stack must be empty)
Champion's Victory says when it can be played. Since this is not the normal time for playing sorceries, the Golden rule kicks in and makes it playable during opponent's declare attackers step anyway.
Actually I have one thing to say to Marek14... Man, that's a great job!!! I mean, that's a lot of copy&pasting, but all things considered, that's hard work man... I salute you!
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There's no instance of the card overriding the rules (just think of Evermind; you don't get to play it any time you could play an instant, just because it says Instant on that type line).
Unlike all the other Portal combat tricks which were changed to instants, Champion's Victory and Heavy Fog have two timing restrictions that normally have no overlap: the type line's "play this only during your main phase and only when the stack is empty" and the rules text's "play this only during the declare attackers step..." To legally play the card you would have to comply with both restrictions, which you can't do outside of cards like Vedalken Orrery. There's a perfectly legal option that you can (and must) take if you have the card in your hand: don't play it. It's similar to Familiar Ground + Goblin War Drums having no overlap, leaving your opponent with no choice except not blocking your creatures at all.
You seem to think the effects allow those two cards to be played at a certain time. They don't. They restrict them from being played at other times. Multiple restrictions are always cumulative. (SadisticMystic is entirely correct.)
I laughed so hard after reading that. For those who don't remember there was a picture release with an article a while ago that had a bunch of cobras with picket signs that said "Cobras are Snakes Too!" protesting outside Wizards main office. I'll link it. I realise this may be off topic but they finally listened!
They should try hard not to fall back on a catch-all like Beast.
Regarding the changes in Visions, I’m cool with changing odd one-offs like Lichenthrope, Necrosavant, and Mindsucker (although I object to the combination of fungus and plant). I’m not cool with Warthog—that’s what creature type Boar was for. And if goats, antelopes, cows, and sheep get their own types, wildebeests should too.
1. I totally agree with your Beast comment and your Wildebeest comment...beasts are according to actual Wizards flavor text policy supposed to be animal-LIKE creatures that do not exist in reality. They have names like Hystrodon and Vorine and Dromad, and do not represent actual real-world animals. I have seen a Wildebeest, ergo Stampeding Wildebeest does not meet the aforementioned definition of "Beast."
2. As far as Lichenthrope being a Plant Fungus, a "lichen" is technically exactly a combination of a plant and a fungus. Therefore, it must be both. It'll probably be the only creature that is both, however...at least until they make a "Greater Lichenthrope." Which of course begs the question of why Greater Mossdog isn't a Fungus Hound.
3. I'm glad they got rid of Necrosavant, though making it a Giant will be hard for multiplayer folks to remember when they're resolving Extinctions and don't want to kill their own Zombies. Of course, multiplayer people tend to be a bit more fast and loose with creature types, and most were already doing things like playing Cobra tokens as Snake tokens anyhow.
4. A warthog and a boar are different animals, just like antelopes and sheep...I think. They should be different creature types.
As to the guys who were arguing about champions victory and heavy fog, it clearly states, in the comprehensive rules, that if a card and the rules differ, the card wins. This is why evermind can't be played: Instants can normally be played, but the rules text that says it cant stops it from being played. This is why Kobolds and Evermind have colors: The rules say that a permanent's color is based on the mana cost of that card, but these cards have specific text that makes them a color. Cards beat out rules. So the champions victory and heavy fog saying "play this card only durring your opponent's declare attacker's step" is the same as saying "you may play this card durring, and only durring, your opponent's attack step, despite its sorcery speed".
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nope rules that stop something overrides rules that allow something.
compare portal Blessed Reversal and 9th/UL. they changed it into an instant. they must do the same for the other sorceries that play like instants.
it clearly states, in the comprehensive rules, that if a card and the rules differ, the card wins.
No, it doesn't. I'm guessing you've never actually read the actual rule.
Quote from CompRules »
103.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 102.3a).
Heavy Fog's "Play Heavy Fog only during the declare attackers step and only if you are the defending player" is not contradicting any rules. I suppose you're also going to suggest that Tidal Influence's "Play Tidal Influence only if no permanents named Tidal Influence are in play" somehow allows you to play it on your opponent's turn.
See those words in italics? That's reminder text. Reminder text and rules text are mutually exclusive.
Quote from Wildfire393 »
This is why Kobolds and Evermind have colors
No, it's not. They have colors because their abilities say they do. This clearly isn't contradicting anything, and Kobolds go right back to being colorless if Humility removes their CSA.
Quote from Wildfire393 »
So the champions victory and heavy fog saying "play this card only durring your opponent's declare attacker's step" is the same as saying "you may play this card durring, and only durring, your opponent's attack step, despite its sorcery speed".
Saw some questionable statements, figured I would give my thought on some of your observations
Quote from Marek14 »
Armor of Thorns (and other Mirage block insta-enchantments): Their text was a bit streamlined, from
You may play Armor of Thorns any time you could play an instant. If it was played any time a sorcery couldn’t have been played, it gains substance until end of turn and gains “When Armor of Thorns doesn’t have substance, sacrifice it.”
to
You may play Armor of Thorns any time you could play an instant. If it was played any time a sorcery couldn’t have been played, it gains substance until end of turn and when it loses substance, sacrifice it.
Basically, the trigger is now no longer state-based, which means that you can Stifle the sacrifice ability and let the enchantment stick for ever.
Actually, the original definatly was not state based, as it gave a triggered ability (Note the "When") and now it is a static ability linked to a triggered ability, which behaves exactly as you describe (Rule 404.5 I believe)
Quote from Marek14 »
Coral Atoll (and other similar Visions lands):
If Coral Atoll would come into play, return an untapped Island you control to its owner’s hand instead. If you do, put Coral Atoll into play tapped. If you don’t, put it into its owner’s graveyard.
to
Coral Atoll comes into play tapped.
When Coral Atoll comes into play, sacrifice it unless you return an untapped Island you control to its owner's hand.
The original clause was to prevent you from drawing mana from Coral Atoll if you don't return a land. This is functional change - now you can put Atoll into play, untap it in response to its CIP trigger and draw mana from it before you return a land (or you can even sacrifice it afterwards without returning).
This is the statement that really got my attention, there is no way under the new ruling to get mana from the land, unless you use an untap effect before the triggered effect goes off, as the line "comes into play tapped" controls the nature of the card as it is put into play, and is not avoidable (This is the wording used on the shock and CIP tapped lands)
Heh heh, sorry for trying to correct someone on my first post, but figured I would clarify these two statements (Couldn't find any other problems that hadn't been brought up before)
BTW, good job on putting together this list :redface:
Actually, the original definatly was not state based, as it gave a triggered ability (Note the "When")
He meant state-triggered abilities, I assume.
Quote from Guvante »
and now it is a static ability linked to a triggered ability, which behaves exactly as you describe (Rule 404.5 I believe)
The instantments don't have triggered abilities (at least in that sense). They create delayed triggered abilities, to which 404.5 doesn't apply. (If they were a 'normal' triggered ability linked to a static ability, it would not behave as described.)
Quote from Guvante »
This is the statement that really got my attention, there is no way under the new ruling to get mana from the land, unless you use an untap effect before the triggered effect goes off
Yeah, that's what he said. Reread what you quoted:
Quote from Marek14 »
now you can put Atoll into play, untap it in response to its CIP trigger and draw mana from it before you return a land (or you can even sacrifice it afterwards without returning).
Bleh, my reading abilities were lax that day, missed 404.4 completly, and read the second "example" in 404.5 and thought I had the right one, and the second one is an example of a normal triggered ability
BTW, my comment on Armor of Thorns was refering to the fact that the effect was granting a triggered ability to the enchantment, therefore, nothing state-based applied
I meant the original wording was a game-state trigger (when Armor of Thorns doesn't have substance...) as opposed to more common triggers based on events.
If they fixed Coral Atoll and the other "bouncelands" so that the Oracle text is the same as the written text, I wonder if they'll do the same for Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins when Weatherlight comes out. You figure they're basically part of the same "cycle" of lands, so it seems possible. I would love to effectively play 8x Black Lotus as a Land.
/quietly heads to Ebay to speculate on Asian Lotus Vales
I meant the original wording was a game-state trigger (when Armor of Thorns doesn't have substance...) as opposed to more common triggers based on events.
Ahh, I see what you mean, I kinda missed the subtlety due to both wordings acting the same basic way in game, under normal conditions, even though they trigger off of different events, but yes, the difference allows Stifle trickery now, which is nice 8^)
And sorry about trying to correct you there, need to learn to read twice as much as I write
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Can you support that assertion?
Unlike all the other Portal combat tricks which were changed to instants, Champion's Victory and Heavy Fog have two timing restrictions that normally have no overlap: the type line's "play this only during your main phase and only when the stack is empty" and the rules text's "play this only during the declare attackers step..." To legally play the card you would have to comply with both restrictions, which you can't do outside of cards like Vedalken Orrery. There's a perfectly legal option that you can (and must) take if you have the card in your hand: don't play it. It's similar to Familiar Ground + Goblin War Drums having no overlap, leaving your opponent with no choice except not blocking your creatures at all.
1. I totally agree with your Beast comment and your Wildebeest comment...beasts are according to actual Wizards flavor text policy supposed to be animal-LIKE creatures that do not exist in reality. They have names like Hystrodon and Vorine and Dromad, and do not represent actual real-world animals. I have seen a Wildebeest, ergo Stampeding Wildebeest does not meet the aforementioned definition of "Beast."
2. As far as Lichenthrope being a Plant Fungus, a "lichen" is technically exactly a combination of a plant and a fungus. Therefore, it must be both. It'll probably be the only creature that is both, however...at least until they make a "Greater Lichenthrope." Which of course begs the question of why Greater Mossdog isn't a Fungus Hound.
3. I'm glad they got rid of Necrosavant, though making it a Giant will be hard for multiplayer folks to remember when they're resolving Extinctions and don't want to kill their own Zombies. Of course, multiplayer people tend to be a bit more fast and loose with creature types, and most were already doing things like playing Cobra tokens as Snake tokens anyhow.
4. A warthog and a boar are different animals, just like antelopes and sheep...I think. They should be different creature types.
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compare portal Blessed Reversal and 9th/UL. they changed it into an instant. they must do the same for the other sorceries that play like instants.
........................
See those words in italics? That's reminder text. Reminder text and rules text are mutually exclusive. No, it's not. They have colors because their abilities say they do. This clearly isn't contradicting anything, and Kobolds go right back to being colorless if Humility removes their CSA. (Wrong)
Careful Vinny bro, Red text removed.
Actually, the original definatly was not state based, as it gave a triggered ability (Note the "When") and now it is a static ability linked to a triggered ability, which behaves exactly as you describe (Rule 404.5 I believe)
This is the statement that really got my attention, there is no way under the new ruling to get mana from the land, unless you use an untap effect before the triggered effect goes off, as the line "comes into play tapped" controls the nature of the card as it is put into play, and is not avoidable (This is the wording used on the shock and CIP tapped lands)
Heh heh, sorry for trying to correct someone on my first post, but figured I would clarify these two statements (Couldn't find any other problems that hadn't been brought up before)
BTW, good job on putting together this list :redface:
Bleh, my reading abilities were lax that day, missed 404.4 completly, and read the second "example" in 404.5 and thought I had the right one, and the second one is an example of a normal triggered ability
BTW, my comment on Armor of Thorns was refering to the fact that the effect was granting a triggered ability to the enchantment, therefore, nothing state-based applied
/quietly heads to Ebay to speculate on Asian Lotus Vales
Ahh, I see what you mean, I kinda missed the subtlety due to both wordings acting the same basic way in game, under normal conditions, even though they trigger off of different events, but yes, the difference allows Stifle trickery now, which is nice 8^)
And sorry about trying to correct you there, need to learn to read twice as much as I write