Would you -ever-, EVER cast him as a creature? Even if he were a 4/4, or a 3/3 flier? No sir, you would not.
Instant Speed
Uncounterable
Earthquake
Sure, it costs two more red. This means that it is a card for mono red control. This means that Mono Red control may just have a shot at returning to viability. This means that the card is board sweeping for a color in the block that has zero board sweeping.
Oh sorry. Yamabushi's Storm.
Right.
The card is still phenomenal. He is far and away better than Latulla, being able to use his ability without warning, and without the requirement to expend additional cards.
Channel is an amazing ability, I just don't understand how you people haven't figured that out yet.
It gives you creatures that can be cast as spells in a time of need. It allows your deck so much more flexibility, allowing cards to serve dual purpose.
Do we not remember cycling? cycling allowed cards to serve a dual purpose as well; both providing the spell's ability, as well as digging you to your answers/threats quickly and efficiently.
Channel allows your creatures to serve the role of both threats and answers, allowing you the opportunity to find what you need without digging as far into your deck.
It allows you to have a ~80 card deck without breaking the 60 rule. It is probably the greatest thing to happen to control decks since the development of the Island.
Would you -ever-, EVER cast him as a creature? Even if he were a 4/4, or a 3/3 flier? No sir, you would not.
Instant Speed
Uncounterable
Earthquake
Sure, it costs two more red. This means that it is a card for mono red control. This means that Mono Red control may just have a shot at returning to viability. This means that the card is board sweeping for a color in the block that has zero board sweeping.
Oh sorry. Yamabushi's Storm.
Right.
The card is still phenomenal. He is far and away better than Latulla, being able to use his ability without warning, and without the requirement to expend additional cards.
Channel is an amazing ability, I just don't understand how you people haven't figured that out yet.
It gives you creatures that can be cast as spells in a time of need. It allows your deck so much more flexibility, allowing cards to serve dual purpose.
Do we not remember cycling? cycling allowed cards to serve a dual purpose as well; both providing the spell's ability, as well as digging you to your answers/threats quickly and efficiently.
Channel allows your creatures to serve the role of both threats and answers, allowing you the opportunity to find what you need without digging as far into your deck.
It allows you to have a ~80 card deck without breaking the 60 rule. It is probably the greatest thing to happen to control decks since the development of the Island.
While not quite as enthusiastic as you are on this one, I agree with most of what you're saying Ester, and it is said very well.
One of the defining cards in any viable control deck is the ability to 'sweep' the board of bothersome critters with a single card, and Jiwari, although expensive, does this with uncounterable ease.
He is completely justified in multiples main deck, infact I can't see how running any less then 4 would be optimal. I can't wait to see if we get B/W/U creatures like these two guys (Jiwari & Arashi). :grin2:
Problem is everyone thought it was better. A 5/5 for 3RR with the ability to heat ray or alternately "cycle" for a starstorm would be absolutely nuts. A discardless Latulla that can't hit players but can cycle for a starstorm is alright. 2 points of power and toughness turn this from an even better and more versatile finisher than Arc slogger to a block board sweeper.
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I have rethought this guy and beleive that he is not just block worthy but type 2 worthy as well. Many people are traped in the COK SUX mindset still and say "thats another block card. Now excuse me while I tooth and nail for a Kiki Jiki+Darksteel Collosus." This block is slower than mirrodin, but nowhere near as bad as it could have been. This block is a bit better than masques block(minus the rebels, because they were almost as broken as affinity). Atleast it's better than The Dark, Fallen Empires, and Homelands...
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"But then are we most in order when we are most out of order."-Jack Cade
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
but should we be in a position to demand Arc Slogger a year after the block featuring such a monster?
should we be in a position to expect arc slogger at all? Have we been so spoiled by the absolutely insane power level of Mirrodin block that we cannot identify strong cards that are not simply redonkulous? Are we as a collective group of player unable to effectively value the power levels of cards whatsoever?
Was mirrodin that bad for the game that we can no longer play it?
A 'block board sweeper'?
I'm sorry but this thing could easily be played in standard, especially under the watching eye of mono blue. starstorm was a very strong card, and in my opinion would be doubly so in a format defined by creatures. We do recall that Onslaught block was a touch controlly, once you got past the whole block theme thing.
Sligh, Stompy, White Weenie, Rats. four decks in four colors that are viable, played, and entirely dependand upon creatures. four decks in four colors that are effectively totalled by the presence (or mere threat) of an ability like "channel earthquake geegee?"
Hydro, yes, I am perhaps overly enthusiastic. Forgive me my sin, but unless I go overboard with this, nobody will believe me taht this ability is both playable and VERY EASILY POTENTIALLY tier one.
"This ability" refers to channel as a whole, and not simply "channel earthquake geegee?"
I'm really sorry that this thread has degenerated into me vs. the world on the subject of channel, but I'm really pissed off that nobody seems capable at all of recognising powerful, playable cards in this block, claiming that the block is terrible and after mirrodin rotates from type two that magic will die.
This is bull. Kamigawa block is perhaps the most innovative, balanced, and fun blocks to create and play in since Invasion. Kamigawa block is both flavourful and functional, as evidenced by the number of cards seen in type two, even over and above cards from the admittedly broken and overpowered Mirrodin block. Magic will not die when MrB rotates from type 2, Magic will thirve as interesting decks will be able to emerge in the format, rewarding innovative creation and playskill over the ability to resolve a single spell for the win.
So far, I have been as happy with Saviors as I have been about any set I've seen in eleven years. Channel is an amazingly creative ability, and will allow players to explore the game in new ways for years to come. We have seen cards that will change the way we play magic, and I feel that this is everything we could hope for from "the worst block ever printed".
I agree, kami block is indeed fun and its only cause mirrodin block is still here in t2 that you all think it sucks.
----------
BTW, for those who keep pointing to sales of MTG declining for WOTC as proof that BoK anc CHK sucked, you're forgetting the real reason why.
Actual competition. Yu-Gi-oH was marketed so Damn well in this country, that it is an easier and more popular game to play among younger kids. When these kids grow up, they either think that ccgs are too kiddish to play or still play Yugioh. Meanwhile WoTC clear competitor to Yugioh, Duel Master, not only sucked but was terribly marketed, and is not doing well at all.
Thus both of these ccgs are doing terribly, because of external pressures, not because of the quality of their sets.....
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
...Kamigawa block is perhaps the most innovative, balanced, and fun blocks to create and play in since Invasion. Kamigawa block is both flavourful and functional, as evidenced by the number of cards seen in type two, even over and above cards from the admittedly broken and overpowered Mirrodin block. Magic will not die when MrB rotates from type 2, Magic will thirve as interesting decks will be able to emerge in the format, rewarding innovative creation and playskill over the ability to resolve a single spell for the win.
So far, I have been as happy with Saviors as I have been about any set I've seen in eleven years. Channel is an amazingly creative ability, and will allow players to explore the game in new ways for years to come. We have seen cards that will change the way we play magic, and I feel that this is everything we could hope for from "the worst block ever printed".
Absolutely Seconded Ester! :grin2:
I too, would hate for this thread to turn into Kamigawa vs anti-kamigawa, I just wanted you to know I support your opinion wholeheartedly.
Now... let's go get some more Saviors spoilers ay?
so jiwari is or isn't a flyer?? i mean.. arashi isn't killing himself.. but jiwari will.. so imho it should be a flyer
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I'm sorry but this thing could easily be played in standard, especially under the watching eye of mono blue. starstorm was a very strong card, and in my opinion would be doubly so in a format defined by creatures. We do recall that Onslaught block was a touch controlly, once you got past the whole block theme thing.
Sligh, Stompy, White Weenie, Rats. four decks in four colors that are viable, played, and entirely dependand upon creatures. four decks in four colors that are effectively totalled by the presence (or mere threat) of an ability like "channel earthquake geegee?"
Sorry, but not even one of the creature decks you mentioned are top tier. Back in Onslaught block, we had Goblin Bidding as top tier in both block and standard.
And I don't think current standard format is defined by small creatures. It's defined by denial (counterspells and LD) and big, nigh-unkillable monsters.
HOW can Jiwari kill himself? When you channel, he's not in play. You can theoretically use it to deal damage to itself, but that's not much of a drawback (save Mindslaver).
Rick: I'm sorry, but you are incorrect in that assessment. Ponza is currently not tier one, while Sligh (Medium Red) most certainly is. Stompy is played more frequently than Tooth and Nail in just about every metagame, and White Weenie has been a played and viable staple for six months.
Mono blue is a strong part of the metagame, but both ponza and tooth are declining in playability.
The thing is, there -are- viable, tier one decks that play small, efficient creatures.
he can target himself.. that's what i was talking about..
i was just pointing out that arashi targets flyers and can't fly.. and being red the color of the fat flyers... originally i thought that arashi would've been a flyer..
not that i'm going to do so.. it's plain dumb.. i was just pointing that out.. but if you're going to get upset just by that.. come on.. it's just a card..
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you can play it as a creature.. the fact that's not the most logical choice has nothing to do with it..
edit: yeah.. a stupid complain.. anyway.. it's just a comment.. not that i'll start flamming about it.. or remove it to avoid replies.. it's there for your throlling pleasure
"It is just that we should be grateful, not only to those with whose views we may agree, but also to those who have expressed more superficial views; for these also contributed something, by developing before us the powers of thought." ~Aristotle
why would you ever play this card as a creature? What could the advantage to you possibly be?
"He can target himself" is the dumbest complaint I have ever heard.
Well, if I get him at Prerelease, I might be inclined to play him as a creature in certain situations. If my opponent has a lot of non-flying creatures, then Earthquake is obviously the way to go - but if it would hurt me more, then I will prefer him in the Heat Ray mode, to beat with him and get rid of any dangerous creatures opponent plays. That could slow him down.
Ah yes, of course play in limited would be very different from play in constructed.
I'm sorry I was not being more specific, as of course there are times when heat ray would be more useful than earthquake. And a 3/3 body for 5 is reasonable in limited.
Yes, he is perhaps doubly useful in Limited, which is not to diss his usefulness in constructed.
Speaking of 'inserts', a little Birdie tells me that product ships out to distributors today, that means we can expect a whole slew of you guys to possibly be opening Saviors packs over the next two FNM's as always happens before the prerelease, Take the opportunity to ask your retailers (Particularly those who are running PR tournaments) if they've received their Saviors products yet, and for god's sake man, post your findings!
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He's a 3/3 for five. ok, so he's not a finisher.
Would you -ever-, EVER cast him as a creature? Even if he were a 4/4, or a 3/3 flier? No sir, you would not.
Instant Speed
Uncounterable
Earthquake
Sure, it costs two more red. This means that it is a card for mono red control. This means that Mono Red control may just have a shot at returning to viability. This means that the card is board sweeping for a color in the block that has zero board sweeping.
Oh sorry. Yamabushi's Storm.
Right.
The card is still phenomenal. He is far and away better than Latulla, being able to use his ability without warning, and without the requirement to expend additional cards.
Channel is an amazing ability, I just don't understand how you people haven't figured that out yet.
It gives you creatures that can be cast as spells in a time of need. It allows your deck so much more flexibility, allowing cards to serve dual purpose.
Do we not remember cycling? cycling allowed cards to serve a dual purpose as well; both providing the spell's ability, as well as digging you to your answers/threats quickly and efficiently.
Channel allows your creatures to serve the role of both threats and answers, allowing you the opportunity to find what you need without digging as far into your deck.
It allows you to have a ~80 card deck without breaking the 60 rule. It is probably the greatest thing to happen to control decks since the development of the Island.
While not quite as enthusiastic as you are on this one, I agree with most of what you're saying Ester, and it is said very well.
One of the defining cards in any viable control deck is the ability to 'sweep' the board of bothersome critters with a single card, and Jiwari, although expensive, does this with uncounterable ease.
He is completely justified in multiples main deck, infact I can't see how running any less then 4 would be optimal. I can't wait to see if we get B/W/U creatures like these two guys (Jiwari & Arashi). :grin2:
Indeed, it's been a great week for Saviors!
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"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
should we be in a position to expect arc slogger at all? Have we been so spoiled by the absolutely insane power level of Mirrodin block that we cannot identify strong cards that are not simply redonkulous? Are we as a collective group of player unable to effectively value the power levels of cards whatsoever?
Was mirrodin that bad for the game that we can no longer play it?
A 'block board sweeper'?
I'm sorry but this thing could easily be played in standard, especially under the watching eye of mono blue. starstorm was a very strong card, and in my opinion would be doubly so in a format defined by creatures. We do recall that Onslaught block was a touch controlly, once you got past the whole block theme thing.
Sligh, Stompy, White Weenie, Rats. four decks in four colors that are viable, played, and entirely dependand upon creatures. four decks in four colors that are effectively totalled by the presence (or mere threat) of an ability like "channel earthquake geegee?"
Hydro, yes, I am perhaps overly enthusiastic. Forgive me my sin, but unless I go overboard with this, nobody will believe me taht this ability is both playable and VERY EASILY POTENTIALLY tier one.
"This ability" refers to channel as a whole, and not simply "channel earthquake geegee?"
I'm really sorry that this thread has degenerated into me vs. the world on the subject of channel, but I'm really pissed off that nobody seems capable at all of recognising powerful, playable cards in this block, claiming that the block is terrible and after mirrodin rotates from type two that magic will die.
This is bull. Kamigawa block is perhaps the most innovative, balanced, and fun blocks to create and play in since Invasion. Kamigawa block is both flavourful and functional, as evidenced by the number of cards seen in type two, even over and above cards from the admittedly broken and overpowered Mirrodin block. Magic will not die when MrB rotates from type 2, Magic will thirve as interesting decks will be able to emerge in the format, rewarding innovative creation and playskill over the ability to resolve a single spell for the win.
So far, I have been as happy with Saviors as I have been about any set I've seen in eleven years. Channel is an amazingly creative ability, and will allow players to explore the game in new ways for years to come. We have seen cards that will change the way we play magic, and I feel that this is everything we could hope for from "the worst block ever printed".
----------
BTW, for those who keep pointing to sales of MTG declining for WOTC as proof that BoK anc CHK sucked, you're forgetting the real reason why.
Actual competition. Yu-Gi-oH was marketed so Damn well in this country, that it is an easier and more popular game to play among younger kids. When these kids grow up, they either think that ccgs are too kiddish to play or still play Yugioh. Meanwhile WoTC clear competitor to Yugioh, Duel Master, not only sucked but was terribly marketed, and is not doing well at all.
Thus both of these ccgs are doing terribly, because of external pressures, not because of the quality of their sets.....
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Absolutely Seconded Ester! :grin2:
I too, would hate for this thread to turn into Kamigawa vs anti-kamigawa, I just wanted you to know I support your opinion wholeheartedly.
Now... let's go get some more Saviors spoilers ay?
I already like this set far more than betrayers, and we've seen not quite a third of it? That says volumes.
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Sorry, but not even one of the creature decks you mentioned are top tier. Back in Onslaught block, we had Goblin Bidding as top tier in both block and standard.
And I don't think current standard format is defined by small creatures. It's defined by denial (counterspells and LD) and big, nigh-unkillable monsters.
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Mono blue is a strong part of the metagame, but both ponza and tooth are declining in playability.
The thing is, there -are- viable, tier one decks that play small, efficient creatures.
i was just pointing out that arashi targets flyers and can't fly.. and being red the color of the fat flyers... originally i thought that arashi would've been a flyer..
not that i'm going to do so.. it's plain dumb.. i was just pointing that out.. but if you're going to get upset just by that.. come on.. it's just a card..
~Aristotle
"He can target himself" is the dumbest complaint I have ever heard.
edit: yeah.. a stupid complain.. anyway.. it's just a comment.. not that i'll start flamming about it.. or remove it to avoid replies.. it's there for your throlling pleasure
~Aristotle
Well, if I get him at Prerelease, I might be inclined to play him as a creature in certain situations. If my opponent has a lot of non-flying creatures, then Earthquake is obviously the way to go - but if it would hurt me more, then I will prefer him in the Heat Ray mode, to beat with him and get rid of any dangerous creatures opponent plays. That could slow him down.
I'm sorry I was not being more specific, as of course there are times when heat ray would be more useful than earthquake. And a 3/3 body for 5 is reasonable in limited.
Yes, he is perhaps doubly useful in Limited, which is not to diss his usefulness in constructed.