I see this in MAJOR draft and limited... (as you still have to pay for the instant in the grave yard.)
player attacks with a Ninja, the 'bear' Monk and a forcy to blocky snake thing -the name looses me right now-, you are forced to block the snake, play rend flash on the Ninja, combat damage resolves, snake dies, 'flash back' the rend and kill his Monk... you killed 3 creatures with one spell and one creature...
but meh... I enjoy him.
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
You do realize that toshi does not return cards to your hand right? He just lets you use instants twice, once from hand, once from graveyard, sorry to burst your buble though.
Hm... You're right. Perhaps he's not so great, as you can't have something going on for ever with the red shrine, or a frostwielder, etc.
Kekko omoshiroi...I don't see him being used too much in block, maybe I'm wrong but there just doesn't seem that good of an engine for instants in block...
I like the ability, but...the whole must destroy to flashback deal makes it nowhere near as good as it could have been. A 2/2 bushido 1for by itself is nothing to be sad about though. I could see this making it into a b control deck maybe by helping get more mileage out of their kill spells, but then again it may be a little too slow for that..... I don't see the ability as being too effective though as there aren't many cheap instants that make it worth it. I could see it as a bit of anti-affinity tech for like a b/g deck though...
Say toshi is in play and you have 1 oxidize in your graveyard, one in your hand, and 3g mana open. They have a ravager, frogmite, and enforcer on the board. You can now procede to play the first oxidize on thr frogmite, flashback the oxidize in the graveyard to kill the second, and use that to trigger the first oxidize you played and flash that back. Also in this scenario there really isn't a lot they could do about it either since if they sac to ravager, you still are able to flashback.
Granted this situation probably is bad for the ravager player to begin with if they don't have out a disciple, but it was mainly just to illustrate the "extra mileage" that toshi could give you. Even without the ability he is still playable, but personally I think there were 2 things that could have been different to make toshi an extremely powerful(but not necissarily broken) card. 1) remove the "if a creature your opponent controls go into a graveyard" clause just make it instants in your graveyard can flashback for their mana cost, or 2)make the spells free for the graveyard activation. I would lean toward the first one though, as the second one would probably be very broken. Overall, I was hoping for something stronger, but oh well, it isn't useless....yet...
i played in a tournament on fridcay. i played affintiy to a sedond place finish. vial lis broken i wonws many games son th3e poever oif it.
Unless i am mistaken Oxidize, V Shaman and E Witness are showing up in just as many decks and warping the metagame as much as Affinity. They should just ban all of Mirrodin block. Onslaught was always the best block ever. I had a U/W Cleric wizard deck that couldnt be beat.
I don't get all the haters. This is my favorite "Main legend" in quite possibly my history of playing Magic. He's cheap, so he's playable. He's a 2/2, or 3/3 in combat, so he's fragile, but able to survive much. His ability made me wet myself when I saw it. I'm already proxying up my playset, and I will try to abuse this guy to the fullest extent of the law. Also, as to theme: Normally, I'm a flavor nut, but I let Toshi's lack of a "spiritcraft" ability slide. I mean, this way Toshi gets the best of both worlds- if it kills, he's there. That strikes me as Toshi-ish, and he uses people and spells that arn't linked to Kami once in a while, too. So, I say: LONG LIVE TOSHI! TOSHI FOREVER! And Toshi is a samurai: He has the two blades, refers to himself, and is refered to as "Ochimusa," or Samurai who lost their honor, and is just all around a samurai who said, "Hey, Bushido codes are for sucks! I'm gonna go kidnap princesses." Three cheers for reawakening my inner johnny, Wizards!
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Quote from releasethedogs »
also listen to yodafan he knows whats hes talking about
Quote from Penumbra Leprechaun »
Yeah, Yodafan's pretty much a EDH pro.
Yodafan: Official pro of one of Magic’s most casual formats.
he works well with shoals, since u can discard an instant to the shoal, and then recur it later. yah, it would be a 1-3 casting cost spell, but definatley useful ealry on, when u dont want to discard, say a myojin to kill a disciple or samurai. instead you can dicard a terror, or glacial ray, and then use it next turn. it at least makes up a bit for the discard of the shoals.
Mr Blonde was right about it not working with the cards rfg by the shoals, but it is pretty beastly with with the red shoal none the less. Imagine this: you have an unblocked attacker and Toshi down. Use the ACC on Blazing Shoal to give the critter say +9 (so we DO get some use out of that searing wind ;)), the shoal goes to the yard. Kill one of your opponent's critters somehow. Use the ACC on the Blazing Shoal in the yard to give the critter another +9 (wow, those searing winds really sit in your hand...maybe they ARE too expensive :-)); the shoal is rfg as well. Now, if it was Toshi attacking, you've performed lethal damage as early as turn 4.
the whole champions block seems to be filled with legends with neutered abilities of previously broken cards in the whole history of m:tg
Quote from Jedit »
If the original card was broken, the appropriate word to describe the ability is "fixed".
I don't know if you have this euphemism over in Scotland, Jedit, but in the States, when talking about getting their pets neutered, a lot of people say they are getting their pets "fixed," so I'm not necessarily sure you're disagreeing with Veilstyle
(Not that I'm admitting I understand this euphemism... It seems to me that they are not "fixing" anything as much as they are really breaking something that was working before....)
As for BoK reprinting "fixed" versions of previously broken abilities, I'm torn. I like getting the abilities back, but at the same time, when I use them, I can't help but feel cheated when I remember how good the original was...
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All warfare is based on deception.
--Sun Tzu, The Art of War
meh, too much reanimation/graveyard stuff make this set seem like torment, and too much tribal stuff make it seem like leigons. i'm not sure what to think about BoK.
BoK gives us the power and the speed that were missing from ChK... both are some of the best sets I've seen in a LONG time and I only with we could stay on this plaine for a few more blocks...
BoK (this is were power and speed came in ChK gave us the backbone to a tasty story and great cards, now here is the speed and agrression.) ChK (nice set, gave us some gret cards and strats, verry innovative) SoK (This is were ends meet and greatness is here, this is when the glory finishes in a climatic ending only heard of in MTG stories, both joy and sadness will be emotions felt upon it's release. Great cards and play but unfortunatly we would have to go away from this marvilous land...)
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
I love how people are dissing Toshiro in the dumb formats like t2. Think how this will hit the hard formats like multi, seattle 150, prismatic, Tribal wars, Emperor, 2hg... all the formats where ravenger is nigh-unheard of (laughed at even), and all your archtypes are either slow or boring. Toshiro and leathal vapors is a lockdown situation, esp with counters, burn or any other instants in the graveyard. Think outside the t2 box, mates...
Toshiro is to0 good not to get played in block. His late game power in some sort of black red (blue?) control deck is just going to out class the white weenie and whatever R/G decks emerge. Type 2 is another matter all together though. I just can't see him making a big enough impact in a type two game for a deck to be built around him. Only time will tell if there are enough good instants for Toshiro to get played in type 2.
It really makes no sense to say something like. "This is just a watered down Yawg will, meh..." (false quote but you get the idea)
We don't want Wizards to make a card NEARLY as powerful as Yawg will again. Homelands was better for magic than Urza block... Hopefully we won't have another Homelands nor Urza block.
Toshi ha kiyoumi no aru to omou.
You don't have to break a card for it to be playable in standard. Toshi's ability has the potential for card advantage often enough that he could make it into a deck without him having to be the focus or the combo that wins the game. There might actually be a combo that indeed does make him really busted, but that is for us to find out once we know all the cards and the meta gets solidified.
Right now it's way too early to say that he is so-so. He is clearly one of the coolest cards from what we have seen and that goes a long way with me and most Magic players.
As far as him being a rogue, there are rogue samurai. I have not read the magic novels to know how Toshi behaves, but it is not out of the ordinary for some samurai to become rogueish. Ronin or perhaps just due to circumstances were rogues that became samurai.
Wow you can kill two creatures with your rend flesh, terror, and other stuff...
nice work!!! an eternal witness for black
G/B here we go!!!!
to be completely honest, i'd take witness over toshi all day, every day.
that isn't to say i think toshi is bad or unplayable.
he's a decent 3-drop (though i would have liked to see first strike) who could very well be the difference in winning or losing a game (an extra rend flesh, oxidize, etc. would have won me plenty of games in the past...).
but to call toshi a black eternal witness is a stretch imho.
Wow, I disappear for a couple days and I miss everything!:D
Well, we all know that this card has an ability with a requirement in order to use it, and we know it's limited to instants only. A watered down version of Yawgmoth's Will, yes, but the requirement of a creature having to die limits this card from ever being abused outside of a deck that can meet its requirements. This card will see some play in tournament black (black/red, black/blue) control/aggro decks however, as he's a 2/2-3/3, and he can recur those kill/control spells you find in both aggro and control decks, as everyone else has stated before me. However, I think his main power would be in an extended/vintage deck. Is anyone else expecting to see him somewhere in the top 10 deck lists of the extended/vintage format?
I love how people are dissing Toshiro in the dumb formats like t2. Think how this will hit the hard formats like multi, seattle 150, prismatic, Tribal wars, Emperor, 2hg... all the formats where ravenger is nigh-unheard of (laughed at even), and all your archtypes are either slow or boring. Toshiro and leathal vapors is a lockdown situation, esp with counters, burn or any other instants in the graveyard. Think outside the t2 box, mates...
your one of the first chaps here besides me to realize that Toshi has potential... casual potential... I love cards that do odd things, and this is among my top list of cards to get at the pre. I will have to find a deck for his home, but non-the less he will find a home in one of my casual decks... probobly my B/U control deck (nothing's funner than being able to 'flash-back' Counter spells...) :devil:
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but does anyone know if you can use Toshi's ability to do stuff like return a Pulse of the Forge to your hand (if the conditions are met), as a choice between putting it in hand and removing it from the game?
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"My parents were always on me to groom myself and wear underpants. What am I, the Pope?"
Ability--Usable, but far from the "I'll just win right now, thanks" craziness of Yawgmoth's Will.
Jesus are you some kind of idiot?
Just kidding, I said the same thing on page 3
Anyways, it would be awesome if it did work.
player attacks with a Ninja, the 'bear' Monk and a forcy to blocky snake thing -the name looses me right now-, you are forced to block the snake, play rend flash on the Ninja, combat damage resolves, snake dies, 'flash back' the rend and kill his Monk... you killed 3 creatures with one spell and one creature...
but meh... I enjoy him.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
Hm... You're right. Perhaps he's not so great, as you can't have something going on for ever with the red shrine, or a frostwielder, etc.
森内葵
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、
諸行無常の響あり。
娑羅雙樹の花の色、
盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。
おごれる人も久しからず、
唯春の夜の夢のごとし。
たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、
偏に風の前の塵に同じ。
Granted this situation probably is bad for the ravager player to begin with if they don't have out a disciple, but it was mainly just to illustrate the "extra mileage" that toshi could give you. Even without the ability he is still playable, but personally I think there were 2 things that could have been different to make toshi an extremely powerful(but not necissarily broken) card. 1) remove the "if a creature your opponent controls go into a graveyard" clause just make it instants in your graveyard can flashback for their mana cost, or 2)make the spells free for the graveyard activation. I would lean toward the first one though, as the second one would probably be very broken. Overall, I was hoping for something stronger, but oh well, it isn't useless....yet...
behold the wisdom of slidegob
Yodafan: Official pro of one of Magic’s most casual formats.
Mr Blonde was right about it not working with the cards rfg by the shoals, but it is pretty beastly with with the red shoal none the less. Imagine this: you have an unblocked attacker and Toshi down. Use the ACC on Blazing Shoal to give the critter say +9 (so we DO get some use out of that searing wind ;)), the shoal goes to the yard. Kill one of your opponent's critters somehow. Use the ACC on the Blazing Shoal in the yard to give the critter another +9 (wow, those searing winds really sit in your hand...maybe they ARE too expensive :-)); the shoal is rfg as well. Now, if it was Toshi attacking, you've performed lethal damage as early as turn 4.
I don't know if you have this euphemism over in Scotland, Jedit, but in the States, when talking about getting their pets neutered, a lot of people say they are getting their pets "fixed," so I'm not necessarily sure you're disagreeing with Veilstyle
(Not that I'm admitting I understand this euphemism... It seems to me that they are not "fixing" anything as much as they are really breaking something that was working before....)
As for BoK reprinting "fixed" versions of previously broken abilities, I'm torn. I like getting the abilities back, but at the same time, when I use them, I can't help but feel cheated when I remember how good the original was...
--Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Level 2 DCI Judge
BoK (this is were power and speed came in ChK gave us the backbone to a tasty story and great cards, now here is the speed and agrression.)
ChK (nice set, gave us some gret cards and strats, verry innovative)
SoK (This is were ends meet and greatness is here, this is when the glory finishes in a climatic ending only heard of in MTG stories, both joy and sadness will be emotions felt upon it's release. Great cards and play but unfortunatly we would have to go away from this marvilous land...)
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
We don't want Wizards to make a card NEARLY as powerful as Yawg will again. Homelands was better for magic than Urza block... Hopefully we won't have another Homelands nor Urza block.
Toshi ha kiyoumi no aru to omou.
You don't have to break a card for it to be playable in standard. Toshi's ability has the potential for card advantage often enough that he could make it into a deck without him having to be the focus or the combo that wins the game. There might actually be a combo that indeed does make him really busted, but that is for us to find out once we know all the cards and the meta gets solidified.
Right now it's way too early to say that he is so-so. He is clearly one of the coolest cards from what we have seen and that goes a long way with me and most Magic players.
As far as him being a rogue, there are rogue samurai. I have not read the magic novels to know how Toshi behaves, but it is not out of the ordinary for some samurai to become rogueish. Ronin or perhaps just due to circumstances were rogues that became samurai.
Like the Shinsengumi (more or less)
nice work!!! an eternal witness for black
G/B here we go!!!!
- Lack of common sense is like the common flu.
Helping unknown people and getting flame by them.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/guasus_lot/m.html?category=19115&cmd=ViewItem&ih=002&item=120914914666&rd=1&sspagename=WDVW&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562
My eBay Listings finishing in 15 minutes.
to be completely honest, i'd take witness over toshi all day, every day.
that isn't to say i think toshi is bad or unplayable.
he's a decent 3-drop (though i would have liked to see first strike) who could very well be the difference in winning or losing a game (an extra rend flesh, oxidize, etc. would have won me plenty of games in the past...).
but to call toshi a black eternal witness is a stretch imho.
-aNia_
-sig by alex, avatar by aNia_
Well, we all know that this card has an ability with a requirement in order to use it, and we know it's limited to instants only. A watered down version of Yawgmoth's Will, yes, but the requirement of a creature having to die limits this card from ever being abused outside of a deck that can meet its requirements. This card will see some play in tournament black (black/red, black/blue) control/aggro decks however, as he's a 2/2-3/3, and he can recur those kill/control spells you find in both aggro and control decks, as everyone else has stated before me. However, I think his main power would be in an extended/vintage deck. Is anyone else expecting to see him somewhere in the top 10 deck lists of the extended/vintage format?
#2. Dungeon Keeper Ami; Proving that sometimes the best Villians are the ones who used to be Heros.
#3. Ow, My Sanity: There are things man was not meant to love.
your one of the first chaps here besides me to realize that Toshi has potential... casual potential... I love cards that do odd things, and this is among my top list of cards to get at the pre. I will have to find a deck for his home, but non-the less he will find a home in one of my casual decks... probobly my B/U control deck (nothing's funner than being able to 'flash-back' Counter spells...) :devil:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
It hits the RFG, Toshiro is a replacement effect. Pulse is an effect effect. Toshiro > Pulse