Having not read the books, the only impression I have of Ral is the mothership short stories. So, I actually like douchebag Ral, though intellectually I know he was the antagonist of the novels and essentially an unhinged, self-absobed asshat.
I'd be fine if he was too, but I kind of doubt he will get much of a focus in the story so it would be somewhat of a shame if he was the flagship for pushing gay characters in the story. Not saying he would be the only one though, and he could definitely become "nicer" for lack of a better word too, which wouldn't be too out there.
I'm of two minds about the possibility of Chandra/Nissa.
On the one hand I'd kinda feel like it was a cop out. Lets face it, two hot girls hooking up in an IP targeted at teen boys is hardly groundbreaking, and if done poorly can be more harm than good. Does the world really need more fetishization of lesbians by heterosexual men?
I think it would be more impactful if the LGBT representation were male/male or another less accepted pairing.
On the other hand, representation of realistic (and non-evil) lesbians in media is still lacking as well. And I could simply be biased as I am a gay man, thus inherently would prefer "me" being represented.
ETA: The cynic in me also finds it doubtful that if/when the LGBT community gets Planeswalker representation that it would be (not) one (but two) of their flagship characters. Far more likely a secondary character so that they can introduce them and then have an excuse not never see them again or only rarely utilize them afterwards. Particularly since there will be criea of "shoving it down [people's] throats."
Agreed on all counts. And I don't sense any bias. What you said was all justified, not only a desire to be represented, but that male/male is the most controversial pairing, and as of Hal and Alena, it's the only LGBT pairing that isn't represented yet either. I'd argue it's the most critical representation of all, too and don't fear any bias suggesting that either. It's disappointing. When it happens, I hope he's a planes walker.
Ral probably is gay from the impressions I got, but I don't think it should be revealed until after we've been introduced to a gay male planeswalker that's a new character. And the gay male should be human. No cutting corners with fantasy races or whatever.
So it's established then. All the boys like Gideon. Wonder if he'll be charmingly oblivious about it all while everyone else stares at him in utter disbelief at "how could he NOT know?"
Or maybe I just read too much fan fiction.
Well, how could someone not like Gideon? My ideal is for Gideon, Liliana, and Jace to form a stable triad, where they are all three lovers together.
Ok, so we know have three gay men who are somewhat iffy on the idea of Chandra/Nissa MTG's first LBGTQ representation. I'd really love to know what opinion a lesbian player would have on the matter. Any takers?
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Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
Ok, so we know have three gay men who are somewhat iffy on the idea of Chandra/Nissa MTG's first LBGTQ representation. I'd really love to know what opinion a lesbian player would have on the matter. Any takers?
Quite curious about that myself.
Also, any thoughts on Hal and Alena's appearances.
Ok, so we know have three gay men who are somewhat iffy on the idea of Chandra/Nissa MTG's first LBGTQ representation. I'd really love to know what opinion a lesbian player would have on the matter. Any takers?
Quite curious about that myself.
Also, any thoughts on Hal and Alena's appearances.
While I'm a secondary source for this, the majority of people I saw on Tumblr were only angry about Hal and Alena not getting a card, and had nothing but praise for the rest of their presentation. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much talk about Chandra/Nissa specifically, but that is likely due to the people I follow having different (but equally lesbian) ships for both. So I think they'd be fairly supportive of Chandra/Nissa, given that I rarely see the "it's only exploitative representation" argument used by actual lesbian and bi women, who would just like some sort of major representation at all before we start quibbling over how exploitative it is (Which I personally feel is more a function of how it's presented, not inherent to it being a lesbian or gay relationship).
Personally, I think it would be best if both Gideon/Jace and Chandra/Nissa got together in a short amount of time, thus proving that practically no one in the Gatewatch is straight.
I think it would be interesting if, during the infancy of the Gatewatch saga we explore the implications of the past on Jace and Lilliana's future for a while. They have their past lovers bickering and bittersweet charm. Their back and forth, all the while on various quests, including killing Lillana's demons, dealing with the Chain Veil, and other threats. Over time, they realize their fate was always meant to be teammates but that they're not meant for one another. Then, over time and as the Gatewatch era progresses, Jace is rather hurt but also relieved about this steady revelation, all while noticing on the field of battle, or in isolated moments of personal conversation here and there that he's taking a confusing shine to Gideon. Neither is aware of this, but they're both experiencing it. Then one day, bam. Mutual epiphany.
I think it would be interesting if, during the infancy of the Gatewatch saga we explore the implications of the past on Jace and Lilliana's future for a while. They have their past lovers bickering and bittersweet charm. Their back and forth, all the while on various quests, including killing Lillana's demons, dealing with the Chain Veil, and other threats. Over time, they realize their fate was always meant to be teammates but that they're not meant for one another. Then, over time and as the Gatewatch era progresses, Jace is rather hurt but also relieved about this steady revelation, all while noticing on the field of battle, or in isolated moments of personal conversation here and there that he's taking a confusing shine to Gideon. Neither is aware of this, but they're both experiencing it. Then one day, bam. Mutual epiphany.
All right, you sold me. I'm super down for some Gideon/Jace.
All in all, I agree with basically everything that's been said here. It would be much better if the representation is non-exploitative, but any representation at all is a good start. And we haven't seen it yet; maybe it actually will be presented well. Or, again, maybe I'm reading too much into things and it won't happen at all. Only time will tell.
I expect to see Nissa in Aether Revolt, to showcase all the gatewatchers in WUBRG order (so far it fits - Gideon on Zendikar, Jace and Lili on Innistrad, Chandra most probably on Kaladesh), so if this is right there will definitely be an opportunity to explore her relationship witch Chandra. After all, they both represent natural forces, as opposed to the technology-based government on Kaladesh.
Having at the same time the Jace/Gideon romance would imo be too much, though. I mean, what are the odds? The multiverse doesn't seem to have the distribution of romantic preferences dramatically different from our world. Also, imagine the flood of "Gaywatch" jokes...
I doubt we will get Chandra/Nissa and Gideon/Jace, it seems somewhat unlikely. Though I don't really see why statistical odds matter, they're just averages after all. If they really wanted to do both they'd need to spread it out and get others to join the Gatewatch, though how long we have until more join is up in the air. Part of me hopes it's something like one per block, but that seems like it would get bloated really fast.
As far as showing all of the gatewatchers in WUBRG order, I don't really think that follows. Gideon is the face of Battle, Nissa the face of Oath, Jace the face of Shadows, Liliana the face of Moon, Chandra logically being the face of Kaladesh just completes the cycle. Of course Nissa/Gideon being where they are is rather odd for a couple reasons, but I don't really see why they'd cycle back to Nissa and have her be there twice.
I doubt we will get Chandra/Nissa and Gideon/Jace, it seems somewhat unlikely. Though I don't really see why statistical odds matter, they're just averages after all. If they really wanted to do both they'd need to spread it out and get others to join the Gatewatch, though how long we have until more join is up in the air. Part of me hopes it's something like one per block, but that seems like it would get bloated really fast.
Statistical odds matter from the storytelling point of view, highly improbable events should not be used just for the sake of being there. That said, if the story demands it (although I currently can't imagine how), statistical odds are the last thing to care about...
As far as showing all of the gatewatchers in WUBRG order, I don't really think that follows. Gideon is the face of Battle, Nissa the face of Oath, Jace the face of Shadows, Liliana the face of Moon, Chandra logically being the face of Kaladesh just completes the cycle. Of course Nissa/Gideon being where they are is rather odd for a couple reasons, but I don't really see why they'd cycle back to Nissa and have her be there twice.
Oops, my bad. I read the theory about showcasing gatewatchers somewhere months ago and I guess I somehow clung to it despite evidence...
Isn't Saheeli Rai the face of Kaladesh (the set)? I guess Chandra could be Aether Revolt.
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Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
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Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
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Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
I doubt we will get Chandra/Nissa and Gideon/Jace, it seems somewhat unlikely. Though I don't really see why statistical odds matter, they're just averages after all. If they really wanted to do both they'd need to spread it out and get others to join the Gatewatch, though how long we have until more join is up in the air. Part of me hopes it's something like one per block, but that seems like it would get bloated really fast.
Statistical odds matter from the storytelling point of view, highly improbable events should not be used just for the sake of being there. That said, if the story demands it (although I currently can't imagine how), statistical odds are the last thing to care about...
As far as showing all of the gatewatchers in WUBRG order, I don't really think that follows. Gideon is the face of Battle, Nissa the face of Oath, Jace the face of Shadows, Liliana the face of Moon, Chandra logically being the face of Kaladesh just completes the cycle. Of course Nissa/Gideon being where they are is rather odd for a couple reasons, but I don't really see why they'd cycle back to Nissa and have her be there twice.
Oops, my bad. I read the theory about showcasing gatewatchers somewhere months ago and I guess I somehow clung to it despite evidence...
I'm sure they do, but statistical odds, as you said, take back seat to the story. If Creative feels like it they could have Jace and Gideon, Nissa and Chandra as couples. That's more what I meant. It might not be that likely, but I think we've had more unlikely events than that happen in the past, and likely will have them happen again in the future. Not a good thing mind you, but it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would slow Creative down.
Ok, so we know have three gay men who are somewhat iffy on the idea of Chandra/Nissa MTG's first LBGTQ representation. I'd really love to know what opinion a lesbian player would have on the matter. Any takers?
Quite curious about that myself.
Also, any thoughts on Hal and Alena's appearances.
While I'm a secondary source for this, the majority of people I saw on Tumblr were only angry about Hal and Alena not getting a card, and had nothing but praise for the rest of their presentation. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much talk about Chandra/Nissa specifically, but that is likely due to the people I follow having different (but equally lesbian) ships for both. So I think they'd be fairly supportive of Chandra/Nissa, given that I rarely see the "it's only exploitative representation" argument used by actual lesbian and bi women, who would just like some sort of major representation at all before we start quibbling over how exploitative it is (Which I personally feel is more a function of how it's presented, not inherent to it being a lesbian or gay relationship).
Personally, I think it would be best if both Gideon/Jace and Chandra/Nissa got together in a short amount of time, thus proving that practically no one in the Gatewatch is straight.
Serious real-deal honest question - What would be interpreted as 'exploitative representation' and why?
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RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Ok, so we know have three gay men who are somewhat iffy on the idea of Chandra/Nissa MTG's first LBGTQ representation. I'd really love to know what opinion a lesbian player would have on the matter. Any takers?
Quite curious about that myself.
Also, any thoughts on Hal and Alena's appearances.
While I'm a secondary source for this, the majority of people I saw on Tumblr were only angry about Hal and Alena not getting a card, and had nothing but praise for the rest of their presentation. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much talk about Chandra/Nissa specifically, but that is likely due to the people I follow having different (but equally lesbian) ships for both. So I think they'd be fairly supportive of Chandra/Nissa, given that I rarely see the "it's only exploitative representation" argument used by actual lesbian and bi women, who would just like some sort of major representation at all before we start quibbling over how exploitative it is (Which I personally feel is more a function of how it's presented, not inherent to it being a lesbian or gay relationship).
Personally, I think it would be best if both Gideon/Jace and Chandra/Nissa got together in a short amount of time, thus proving that practically no one in the Gatewatch is straight.
Serious real-deal honest question - What would be interpreted as 'exploitative representation' and why?
I would interpret it as utilizing a character(particularly of a minority group) in a way that's solely motivated by marketing appeal to (or social beliefs of) their primary demographic while potentially reinforcing negative stereotypes, or otherwise outright misrepresenting the depicted group(s).
The example mentioned previously in thos thread for inatance: overt sexualization of lesbian characters, as a means of appealing to an IP's heterosexual male demographic, rather than a more reasonable/realistic depiction of a lesbian couple, meant to appeal to, or simply accurately reflect, the lgbt segment of the consumer base.
Ok, so we know have three gay men who are somewhat iffy on the idea of Chandra/Nissa MTG's first LBGTQ representation. I'd really love to know what opinion a lesbian player would have on the matter. Any takers?
Quite curious about that myself.
Also, any thoughts on Hal and Alena's appearances.
While I'm a secondary source for this, the majority of people I saw on Tumblr were only angry about Hal and Alena not getting a card, and had nothing but praise for the rest of their presentation. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much talk about Chandra/Nissa specifically, but that is likely due to the people I follow having different (but equally lesbian) ships for both. So I think they'd be fairly supportive of Chandra/Nissa, given that I rarely see the "it's only exploitative representation" argument used by actual lesbian and bi women, who would just like some sort of major representation at all before we start quibbling over how exploitative it is (Which I personally feel is more a function of how it's presented, not inherent to it being a lesbian or gay relationship).
Personally, I think it would be best if both Gideon/Jace and Chandra/Nissa got together in a short amount of time, thus proving that practically no one in the Gatewatch is straight.
Serious real-deal honest question - What would be interpreted as 'exploitative representation' and why?
I honestly don't know. Like, people say "oh if it's overtly sexual it must be directed at hetero guys", but... I know quite a few lesbians who enjoy watching/reading about sexy ladies getting together, so... In the end, it seems to be a personal taste thing, and the people I most commonly see complaining about it are the ones whose representation isn't at stake. Whether that's confirmation bias or not, idk.
Ok, so we know have three gay men who are somewhat iffy on the idea of Chandra/Nissa MTG's first LBGTQ representation. I'd really love to know what opinion a lesbian player would have on the matter. Any takers?
Also, any thoughts on Hal and Alena's appearances.
I'm iffy about Chandra/Nissa just because there doesn't seem to be any real evidence for it, Kiora and Jori En had more chemistry than they do. If they got together now, it would be completely out of left field and feel forced as a result. Like I said before, the only Gatewatch pairing with any real chemistry is Jace/Liliana, at least at the moment. I also feel like Nissa is the team's odd one out, since Jace and Gideon and Chandra and Liliana all have existing ties to at least one or two of their teammates, but Nissa doesn't really know or have particularly strong feelings about any of them. But if they took the time to actually develop more of a dynamic between Chandra and Nissa, I think it could potentially work in the long run.
As for Hal and Alena, I'm glad we finally had a lesbian couple shown in a story. My only problem was that, because of some confusing writing and the fact that Hal is usually a male name, I didn't even realize they were a lesbian couple until halfway through their scene. And while I'm glad the writers didn't kill off Magic's first on-screen homosexual couple immediately after introducing them, I felt like having them resist eldritch madness through The Power of Love was kinda lame too.
Technically, Magic's first on-screen homosexual couple was killed off in the same story they were introduced: Emonberry Red
Hadn't read that one, I didn't start reading Uncharted Realms regularly until Khans of Tarkir. Still, it's well-written and fitting for a Greek tragedy, so I don't really consider it an example of Bury Your Gays.
I hope Pavios and Thanasis are represented on a card too. Their story, at least. Like as a wall fresco of them in card art, or a card like Fated Retribution for example, depicting them in a scene from their story. Pavios falling onto the sword, or their blood seeping into the roots of the Emonberry Tree, for example, are poetic and beautifully tragic scenes to depict on a card art in Return to Theros. I don't feel they need to be individual Legendaries like other Theros characters should, like Arixmethes. Because they did in fact die and all - but their story is worthy of its own "myth card" so to speak.
Technically, Magic's first on-screen homosexual couple was killed off in the same story they were introduced: Emonberry Red
Hadn't read that one, I didn't start reading Uncharted Realms regularly until Khans of Tarkir. Still, it's well-written and fitting for a Greek tragedy, so I don't really consider it an example of Bury Your Gays.
I didn't mean to say it was a bad story. It ranks pretty high in my MtG favourites, personally.
Thus I would be perfectly fine if Ral was gay.
Ral probably is gay from the impressions I got, but I don't think it should be revealed until after we've been introduced to a gay male planeswalker that's a new character. And the gay male should be human. No cutting corners with fantasy races or whatever.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Well, how could someone not like Gideon? My ideal is for Gideon, Liliana, and Jace to form a stable triad, where they are all three lovers together.
Of course, I edit romance novels for a living.
But still...
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Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
Quite curious about that myself.
Also, any thoughts on Hal and Alena's appearances.
Personally, I think it would be best if both Gideon/Jace and Chandra/Nissa got together in a short amount of time, thus proving that practically no one in the Gatewatch is straight.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
All right, you sold me. I'm super down for some Gideon/Jace.
All in all, I agree with basically everything that's been said here. It would be much better if the representation is non-exploitative, but any representation at all is a good start. And we haven't seen it yet; maybe it actually will be presented well. Or, again, maybe I'm reading too much into things and it won't happen at all. Only time will tell.
Having at the same time the Jace/Gideon romance would imo be too much, though. I mean, what are the odds? The multiverse doesn't seem to have the distribution of romantic preferences dramatically different from our world. Also, imagine the flood of "Gaywatch" jokes...
As far as showing all of the gatewatchers in WUBRG order, I don't really think that follows. Gideon is the face of Battle, Nissa the face of Oath, Jace the face of Shadows, Liliana the face of Moon, Chandra logically being the face of Kaladesh just completes the cycle. Of course Nissa/Gideon being where they are is rather odd for a couple reasons, but I don't really see why they'd cycle back to Nissa and have her be there twice.
Statistical odds matter from the storytelling point of view, highly improbable events should not be used just for the sake of being there. That said, if the story demands it (although I currently can't imagine how), statistical odds are the last thing to care about...
Oops, my bad. I read the theory about showcasing gatewatchers somewhere months ago and I guess I somehow clung to it despite evidence...
Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Tovolar, Howlpack Alpha
Pivlic, Orzhov Informant
Crixizix, Master Engineer
Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
I'm sure they do, but statistical odds, as you said, take back seat to the story. If Creative feels like it they could have Jace and Gideon, Nissa and Chandra as couples. That's more what I meant. It might not be that likely, but I think we've had more unlikely events than that happen in the past, and likely will have them happen again in the future. Not a good thing mind you, but it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would slow Creative down.
Serious real-deal honest question - What would be interpreted as 'exploitative representation' and why?
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I would interpret it as utilizing a character(particularly of a minority group) in a way that's solely motivated by marketing appeal to (or social beliefs of) their primary demographic while potentially reinforcing negative stereotypes, or otherwise outright misrepresenting the depicted group(s).
The example mentioned previously in thos thread for inatance: overt sexualization of lesbian characters, as a means of appealing to an IP's heterosexual male demographic, rather than a more reasonable/realistic depiction of a lesbian couple, meant to appeal to, or simply accurately reflect, the lgbt segment of the consumer base.
I'm iffy about Chandra/Nissa just because there doesn't seem to be any real evidence for it, Kiora and Jori En had more chemistry than they do. If they got together now, it would be completely out of left field and feel forced as a result. Like I said before, the only Gatewatch pairing with any real chemistry is Jace/Liliana, at least at the moment. I also feel like Nissa is the team's odd one out, since Jace and Gideon and Chandra and Liliana all have existing ties to at least one or two of their teammates, but Nissa doesn't really know or have particularly strong feelings about any of them. But if they took the time to actually develop more of a dynamic between Chandra and Nissa, I think it could potentially work in the long run.
As for Hal and Alena, I'm glad we finally had a lesbian couple shown in a story. My only problem was that, because of some confusing writing and the fact that Hal is usually a male name, I didn't even realize they were a lesbian couple until halfway through their scene. And while I'm glad the writers didn't kill off Magic's first on-screen homosexual couple immediately after introducing them, I felt like having them resist eldritch madness through The Power of Love was kinda lame too.
Technically, Magic's first on-screen homosexual couple was killed off in the same story they were introduced: Emonberry Red
Hadn't read that one, I didn't start reading Uncharted Realms regularly until Khans of Tarkir. Still, it's well-written and fitting for a Greek tragedy, so I don't really consider it an example of Bury Your Gays.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I didn't mean to say it was a bad story. It ranks pretty high in my MtG favourites, personally.