Okay, so those of us thet know the old pre-mending lore know of Urza and the nine titans storming Old Phyrexia.
They actually were doing pretty well until Urza turned on all of them.
Now I'm wondering if The Jacetus League would have fared any better.
Even if they weren't strong enough to beat Yawgie, could they have at least gotten to him or crippled Phyrexia the way the Titans did?
Keep in mind that they have Gideon's indestructibility and Jace's mind magic in their favor. Gideon's a hard dude to kill or corrupt,
and Jace with his illusions and mind magic can create confusion in the Pyrexian armies. Plus Nissa has her little elementals and Chandra can burn stuff real good.
If it were the Gatewatch instead of the Titans in that battle, how well would they have done?
And while we're at it, how effective would Urza's crew have been against Ob Nix, Ula and Kosi?
I wouldn't say they are a joke, but I don't think they stand at accomplishing what the 9 titans did. The 9 titans were old walkers with power armor, and the Gatewatch was only able to beat the titans (who it has been stated were still not at full strength) because they had the power of an entire plane behind them as well as an army defending them from the spawn. Oldwalkers were much more powerful than neowalkers, and they had power armor boosting their abilities. I think the Gatewatch likely would have put up a good fight against Phyrexia, Gideon in particular probably would have been able to hold out long enough to be brought down by an upper-level Phyrexian demon or even Yawgmoth himself, but I don't think they'd have had a prayer of accomplishing what the 9 titans did. That said, there are only 4 of them, and as the ranks of the Gatewatch grow my answer might change.
As for 9 titans vs. Ob Nix, Ula, and Koz I'm less sure. Also what strength are they at? Is this old walker Ob and full strength Ula and Cosi? or the characters as they were in BFZ block? Either way I think Ob gets wrecked. He's powerful and devious but he's 1 vs. 9 and those 9 include some very heavy hitters. Ula and Koz are a much more interesting question. Ugin implies that they could be killed all along, but Sorin and Nahiri weren't able to do so w/ Ulamog (granted it seems they only fought his spawn, not encountering the titan himself until it was too late to stop him). The Gatewatch was able to kill them (for now?), but only by using a very unique ritual that only works on one particular world, and when Ula and Koz were at weakened strength. I'm inclined to say the 9 titans probably could have killed Ulamog and Kozilek, but not without heavy losses and likely not on the first try.
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UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
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The Gatewatch would be decimated.Urza to do some crazy preparations to fight against Phyrexia.Hell the Negators were a threat on their own that could even make Urza run for his life.Gix, a Praetor was powerfull to tossle agaisnt an oldwalker.
Urza needed the help of other walkers plus super mechas to power them to be able to stand up agaisnt the phyrexians.Yawgmoth alone would take the Gatewatch down even if they ahd Ugin in his side.Yawgmoth was incredibly powerfull, i dare say the msot pwoerfull characters in the series
Probably not, given that Phyrexia is was a near-inhospitable horror-show world where everything and anything could kill you if you even looked at it. Given enough time, however, they might be able to stem the tide of Phyrexians like the Coalition in Invasion. Except, they (Coalition) almost all died when Yawgmoth actually showed up to fight, so, there's that.
I'd say there's a 0.5/10 chance of them winning. Not likely, but not outright impossible either. 0/10 if they're actually fighting Yawgmoth.
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Decks: Casual R Burn R
EDH R Godo Voltron R RUG ETB Overload RUG BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW GW Spirits!!! GW RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
I think it's pretty simple, actually. Just plug Chandra into the biggest mana source you can find, and *poof* Phyrexia is nothing more than a pile of ash.
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Without the almighty power of retcons, Gatewatch would lose pretty handily.
But if this ever happened in today's storyline, the Gatewatch would easily win. No question. Power of marketing friendship and all that.
Exactly, no form of the Phyrexians can match the Gatewatch, because if so called eldritch monstrosities can be completely wiped out the way they were, the Gatewatch can do anything. Oldwalkers had a foe that was too much for them? Whatever, just assemble the Jacetus League and they'll easily handle it.
Not a chance. Without the immense regeneration capacity of the oldwalkers that made them immune to the plague and capable of withstanding non-obliterating physical damage, they would be dead in minutes.
And seriously, the "CHANDRA BURN" thing is getting old. Get over it, people.
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Considering how leylines got Niv-Mizzet to grudgingly accept Jace as the Living Guild Pact, channeled enough energy for CHANDRA BURN TWO ELDRAZI TITANS and for Nahiri to perform all sort of chaos on Innistrad, I won't be surprised if the Jacetus league got Creative to install Leylines on Old Phyrexia and once Jace convinces a Sleeper Agent to hit the switch, all of a sudden Old Phyrexia atmosphere becomes Spark-Laden and the Phyrexians simply perish. Yawgmoth would be happy to have so much spark-energy around him, but that would be the last thing he'll be happy about as it obliterates him.
That being said, despite all that talk that the Mending affects planeswalkers, Old Phyrexia was too dead for us to figure out if it does affect the power-levels of other similarly-powered beings... for all we know if Old Phyrexia was around, the Mending will automatically reduce the atmosphere of the plane to New Phyrexia's instead (and that was survivable).
So, a more realistic question is whether a Jacetus league with oldwalker powers could beat Old Phyrexia, since we have no idea how much weaker a Post-Mending Old Phyrexia could possibly be (or be not at all). The answer's still no though. They have way better teamwork, but honestly 9 backstabbing planeswalkers are probably still better off than 4 co-operative ones when it comes to Old Phyrexia, even if they were equal in power individually.
Obviously if it was required for the Gatewatch to defeat the phyrexians, the creative team would find a way to do so and that would be it. They just defeated Ulamog and Kozilek, basically all by themselves, thanks to a number of great conveniences aligning to favor them. If you're asking purely looking at power levels alone you're doing it wrong. Most stories that I know you can set power levels for the characters, but there are two types of stories like that:
- The ones that respect these power levels: when an apparent 'breach of power level' is reached you have a good, respectable explanation. The characters are consistent all throughout the series, and there is no 'power of friendship' or the like to help anyone. There can be special circumstances, but you have to build up to them. Here a phyrexian defeat would basically be impossible for the gatewatch at the moment.
- The ones that disregard their power level: a character who did an amazing feat defeating multiple bad guys at once is then taken down by one single random dude or something. This is bad storytelling, that provides no explanation and where the power of characters waxes and wanes according to the needs of the writer. Here they would wipe the floor with Yawghmoth himself and drink cool-aid while asking why it had taken Urza so long to beat them.
Magic tries to be the first and more often than not ends up being the second.
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Even almighty Urza needed a special suit to explore Phyrexia, and that didn't work out well for him. They would probably have been corrupted by the glistening oil, and torn apart as a group until one (probably Mary Sue Jace) either rose above it and won all the things or found a way to win by the power of bullsh friendship.
Obviously if it was required for the Gatewatch to defeat the phyrexians, the creative team would find a way to do so and that would be it. They just defeated Ulamog and Kozilek, basically all by themselves, thanks to a number of great conveniences aligning to favor them. If you're asking purely looking at power levels alone you're doing it wrong. Most stories that I know you can set power levels for the characters, but there are two types of stories like that:
- The ones that respect these power levels: when an apparent 'breach of power level' is reached you have a good, respectable explanation. The characters are consistent all throughout the series, and there is no 'power of friendship' or the like to help anyone. There can be special circumstances, but you have to build up to them. Here a phyrexian defeat would basically be impossible for the gatewatch at the moment.
- The ones that disregard their power level: a character who did an amazing feat defeating multiple bad guys at once is then taken down by one single random dude or something. This is bad storytelling, that provides no explanation and where the power of characters waxes and wanes according to the needs of the writer. Here they would wipe the floor with Yawghmoth himself and drink cool-aid while asking why it had taken Urza so long to beat them.
Magic tries to be the first and more often than not ends up being the second.
Ashiok, what does the scouter say about their power levels?
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Gatewatch would win. If the writers will it and bring back Old Phyrexia for no good reason, Yawgmoth/Old Phyrexia would job so hard to the Jacetus League it would make your head spin. There really isn't an argument to be had here, seriously.
Gatewatch would win. If the writers will it and bring back Old Phyrexia for no good reason, Yawgmoth/Old Phyrexia would job so hard to the Jacetus League it would make your head spin. There really isn't an argument to be had here, seriously.
Plot armor > Yawgmoth
Here here. Right now the four can fight The Nine Titans and Old Phyrexia at the same time and win, because plotkai.
With their recognized status as protagonists nothing bad can ever happen to the Gatewatch even in situations where they clearly should suffer some kind of lasting consequences (I mean really? Chandra channeled an entire plane's worth of mana -which in itself is dumb if you consider that Zendikar was super drained already and thus she couldn't use all the mana it had- and she just has some trouble walking? Gideon drowned and got tortured and immediately after is fine and dandy? Jace, the physically weakest of the Gatewatch, gets tortured relentlessly by Ob and can do whatever immediately after Chandra arrives?).
I'm not advocating for some Game of Thrones style of kill everybody always all the time but disregarding the effects of everything is really off-putting. I can guarantee that people would not have reacted so badly to the whole BfZ/OGW storyline fiasco if some kind of tangible effects had visited the crew - Chandra being forced to use a cane or wheelchair-equivalent (or maybe even burnt out from excess mana channeling), Gideon's hair going white or at least his clothes/armor getting damaged by Ulamog's presence and attacks, Jace being unable to do stuff for a while after the torture (as much as the fans would like it, no I don't think it would've been good for it to leave him catatonic)...
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Honestly, I think Jace, Nissa, Gideon, and Chandra would not stand a chance against a full strength old phyrexia. They might not even reach Yawgmoth, as there are phyrexians incrediby strong like Praetor Gix that they would encounter first before even reach the big boss. At best they manage to escape, get chased by phyrexians wherever they went - just like how the phyrexians followed Urza all the way to Serra's realm - or at worst, they all get captured.. Pithing Needle'd and tortured for eternity in phyrexian hell.
Well, fortunately they won't even experience those things because they would probably be wise enough not to go against dark god Yawgmoth without any plan.. Jace is a blue mage, so he will think of wiser things that they could do against such a threat.
Standing near Ulamog obliterates you from existence. Gideon survived that so I think he'll have no problem on Phyrexia itself.
Jace could probably make a plan that involves leylines that could keep Yawgmoth in place.
Nissa will summon Ashaya about 5 times, after losing her every time and then channel some leylines.
Chandra will go face to face with yawgmoth and completely obliterate him with the power of leylines. Imagine how much mana she could get with the teleport thingies from Phyrexia. Yawgmoth doesn't stand a chance.
It took Urza so long, because he didn't have the power of friendship. He had too many traitors in his ranks and was really old.
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I guess if someone converts all the whining about the BFZ story into mana, Chandra could use that mana to cast a fireball that obliterates old Phyrexia, new Phyrexia, Yawgmoth, Urza, Niclo Bolas, Emrakul, Mark Rosewater and a Grizzly Bear in one spell.
Don't forget the squirrels.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
To be reasonable, the Weatherlight crew did unload the Null Moon's accumulated mana on Yawgmoth and that hurt him. So a plane-powered fireblast might do something (but does it have to be white mana?).
Can't imagine the Jacetus League going through what happened in the old books though.
They actually were doing pretty well until Urza turned on all of them.
Now I'm wondering if The Jacetus League would have fared any better.
Even if they weren't strong enough to beat Yawgie, could they have at least gotten to him or crippled Phyrexia the way the Titans did?
Keep in mind that they have Gideon's indestructibility and Jace's mind magic in their favor. Gideon's a hard dude to kill or corrupt,
and Jace with his illusions and mind magic can create confusion in the Pyrexian armies. Plus Nissa has her little elementals and Chandra can burn stuff real good.
If it were the Gatewatch instead of the Titans in that battle, how well would they have done?
And while we're at it, how effective would Urza's crew have been against Ob Nix, Ula and Kosi?
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As for 9 titans vs. Ob Nix, Ula, and Koz I'm less sure. Also what strength are they at? Is this old walker Ob and full strength Ula and Cosi? or the characters as they were in BFZ block? Either way I think Ob gets wrecked. He's powerful and devious but he's 1 vs. 9 and those 9 include some very heavy hitters. Ula and Koz are a much more interesting question. Ugin implies that they could be killed all along, but Sorin and Nahiri weren't able to do so w/ Ulamog (granted it seems they only fought his spawn, not encountering the titan himself until it was too late to stop him). The Gatewatch was able to kill them (for now?), but only by using a very unique ritual that only works on one particular world, and when Ula and Koz were at weakened strength. I'm inclined to say the 9 titans probably could have killed Ulamog and Kozilek, but not without heavy losses and likely not on the first try.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Urza needed the help of other walkers plus super mechas to power them to be able to stand up agaisnt the phyrexians.Yawgmoth alone would take the Gatewatch down even if they ahd Ugin in his side.Yawgmoth was incredibly powerfull, i dare say the msot pwoerfull characters in the series
If they were somewhere with access to armies and home turf advantage? Maybe.
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iswas a near-inhospitable horror-show world where everything and anything could kill you if you even looked at it. Given enough time, however, they might be able to stem the tide of Phyrexians like the Coalition in Invasion. Except, they (Coalition) almost all died when Yawgmoth actually showed up to fight, so, there's that.I'd say there's a 0.5/10 chance of them winning. Not likely, but not outright impossible either. 0/10 if they're actually fighting Yawgmoth.
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
But if this ever happened in today's storyline, the Gatewatch would easily win. No question. Power of
marketingfriendship and all that."You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Exactly, no form of the Phyrexians can match the Gatewatch, because if so called eldritch monstrosities can be completely wiped out the way they were, the Gatewatch can do anything. Oldwalkers had a foe that was too much for them? Whatever, just assemble the Jacetus League and they'll easily handle it.
And seriously, the "CHANDRA BURN" thing is getting old. Get over it, people.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
That being said, despite all that talk that the Mending affects planeswalkers, Old Phyrexia was too dead for us to figure out if it does affect the power-levels of other similarly-powered beings... for all we know if Old Phyrexia was around, the Mending will automatically reduce the atmosphere of the plane to New Phyrexia's instead (and that was survivable).
So, a more realistic question is whether a Jacetus league with oldwalker powers could beat Old Phyrexia, since we have no idea how much weaker a Post-Mending Old Phyrexia could possibly be (or be not at all). The answer's still no though. They have way better teamwork, but honestly 9 backstabbing planeswalkers are probably still better off than 4 co-operative ones when it comes to Old Phyrexia, even if they were equal in power individually.
Sorry, I had the feeling this is only beginning.
Obviously if it was required for the Gatewatch to defeat the phyrexians, the creative team would find a way to do so and that would be it. They just defeated Ulamog and Kozilek, basically all by themselves, thanks to a number of great conveniences aligning to favor them. If you're asking purely looking at power levels alone you're doing it wrong. Most stories that I know you can set power levels for the characters, but there are two types of stories like that:
- The ones that respect these power levels: when an apparent 'breach of power level' is reached you have a good, respectable explanation. The characters are consistent all throughout the series, and there is no 'power of friendship' or the like to help anyone. There can be special circumstances, but you have to build up to them. Here a phyrexian defeat would basically be impossible for the gatewatch at the moment.
- The ones that disregard their power level: a character who did an amazing feat defeating multiple bad guys at once is then taken down by one single random dude or something. This is bad storytelling, that provides no explanation and where the power of characters waxes and wanes according to the needs of the writer. Here they would wipe the floor with Yawghmoth himself and drink cool-aid while asking why it had taken Urza so long to beat them.
Magic tries to be the first and more often than not ends up being the second.
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bullshfriendship.Ashiok, what does the scouter say about their power levels?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKibNykWGbg
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Plot armor > Yawgmoth
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Here here. Right now the four can fight The Nine Titans and Old Phyrexia at the same time and win, because plotkai.
With their recognized status as protagonists nothing bad can ever happen to the Gatewatch even in situations where they clearly should suffer some kind of lasting consequences (I mean really? Chandra channeled an entire plane's worth of mana -which in itself is dumb if you consider that Zendikar was super drained already and thus she couldn't use all the mana it had- and she just has some trouble walking? Gideon drowned and got tortured and immediately after is fine and dandy? Jace, the physically weakest of the Gatewatch, gets tortured relentlessly by Ob and can do whatever immediately after Chandra arrives?).
I'm not advocating for some Game of Thrones style of kill everybody always all the time but disregarding the effects of everything is really off-putting. I can guarantee that people would not have reacted so badly to the whole BfZ/OGW storyline fiasco if some kind of tangible effects had visited the crew - Chandra being forced to use a cane or wheelchair-equivalent (or maybe even burnt out from excess mana channeling), Gideon's hair going white or at least his clothes/armor getting damaged by Ulamog's presence and attacks, Jace being unable to do stuff for a while after the torture (as much as the fans would like it, no I don't think it would've been good for it to leave him catatonic)...
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Well, fortunately they won't even experience those things because they would probably be wise enough not to go against dark god Yawgmoth without any plan.. Jace is a blue mage, so he will think of wiser things that they could do against such a threat.
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Jace could probably make a plan that involves leylines that could keep Yawgmoth in place.
Nissa will summon Ashaya about 5 times, after losing her every time and then channel some leylines.
Chandra will go face to face with yawgmoth and completely obliterate him with the power of leylines. Imagine how much mana she could get with the teleport thingies from Phyrexia. Yawgmoth doesn't stand a chance.
It took Urza so long, because he didn't have the power of friendship. He had too many traitors in his ranks and was really old.
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Don't forget the squirrels.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Can't imagine the Jacetus League going through what happened in the old books though.