We don't know that. But the thing is we don't know that. We don't know that the good ole Joe Bident will work to the full extent of it's true power. We don't know if its connection to Nyx is important to its powers. Hell we don't know if that's actually just a cocktail fork that Thassa uses to focus her own powers the way that Gideon uses his sural. Sure we've seen an art of her summoning a Kracken, supposedly with the bident, but we know that's something she could do before. She could just be pointing with it. I'm not saying that it wont give her a power boost because that would be pretty pointless and there are plenty of Greek myths in which mortals use items owned by the gods.
Yes, but I am, and kiora is fun to play, and she is simic colours, so she is the closest thing to Simic we can get, so for all intents and purposes, she is a simic coloured Mage
Sure we've seen an art of her summoning a Kracken, supposedly with the bident, but we know that's something she could do before. She could just be pointing with it. I'm not saying that it wont give her a power boost because that would be pretty pointless and there are plenty of Greek myths in which mortals use items owned by the gods.
Gideon himself used the Spear of Heliod, for example.
I'm sure Kiora is smart enough to know that she got away by the skin of her teeth last time so why should she go back somewhere she will inevitably get into another fight in which Thassa will likely bring backup to.
You know, I like Kiora but I really don't think that's true. She is extremely arrogant.
Sure we've seen an art of her summoning a Kracken, supposedly with the bident, but we know that's something she could do before. She could just be pointing with it. I'm not saying that it wont give her a power boost because that would be pretty pointless and there are plenty of Greek myths in which mortals use items owned by the gods.
Gideon himself used the Spear of Heliod, for example.
Sure we've seen an art of her summoning a Kracken, supposedly with the bident, but we know that's something she could do before. She could just be pointing with it. I'm not saying that it wont give her a power boost because that would be pretty pointless and there are plenty of Greek myths in which mortals use items owned by the gods.
Gideon himself used the Spear of Heliod, for example.
No, he used a spear of Heliod, not Khrusor.
Oh, you're right, but that brings up another question: Does it make a difference? Obviously the spear Heliod handed Gideon wouldn't be as powerful as his own, but it would essentially be a similar weapon as it was a Nyx-magic spear made from sunlight. Just the faux-spear was enough power to destroy a titan and then wrath all of Gideon's friends.
Now, what we do know the Bident allows Kiora to do is create powerful destructive whirlpools. She could most likely already summon giant Octopus, but it's pretty clear from the story that the Bident helped channel power to strengthen her Octopus against the Eldrazi.
Back to the main points of this thread:
1) Having already slaughtered most of the plane isn't enough to prove how dangerous they are? I mean, I get the point here, but we're getting to the point where literally all the known survivors of the plane are heading to Sea Gate.
2) You could argue that Nissa is the exact same. Or Nahiri, for that matter.
3) Ugin isn't there either. Kiora doesn't really seem like the oath swearing type, does she?
Yes, but I am, and kiora is fun to play, and she is simic colours, so she is the closest thing to Simic we can get, so for all intents and purposes, she is a simic coloured Mage
For what it's worth, I always had trouble to pinpoint the green side of Kiora. She could have been made monoblue and I'd have been fine with it.
Yes, but I am, and kiora is fun to play, and she is simic colours, so she is the closest thing to Simic we can get, so for all intents and purposes, she is a simic coloured Mage
For what it's worth, I always had trouble to pinpoint the green side of Kiora. She could have been made monoblue and I'd have been fine with it.
Do you mean personality-wise or mechanically?
I mean, from a personality perspective I supposed being all about the strongest sea monsters makes her fairly green. But yeah, her colors are far more mechanically driven that personality driven.
I wouldn't dare discuss characters based on their gameplay mechanics in this subforum
Yes, indeed, story-wise, I have trouble to identify her green side to the point she'd be made an UG character. I think this is just a giveaway to players who requested an UG planeswalker for so long, a bit like Ral Zarek in UR.
I wouldn't dare discuss characters based on their gameplay mechanics in this subforum
Yes, indeed, story-wise, I have trouble to identify her green side to the point she'd be made an UG character. I think this is just a giveaway to players who requested an UG planeswalker for so long, a bit like Ral Zarek in UR.
I honestly think this is just the point where game play mechanics and plot clash. Big bad monsters of the deep should probably have always been a little green.
Yes, indeed, story-wise, I have trouble to identify her green side to the point she'd be made an UG character.
If she were monoBlue she would want to make the ultimate sea monster. Instead she believes that true perfection already exists (Green) and is driven to discover it (Blue). Kiora also does not make or alter things or have any sort of intellectual passion. In terms of personality she embodies Green's conservative view of things as well as its preference for direct, even brutal, solutions to problems. She has Blue's love of trickery but note that her tricks are very simple rather than being sophisticated plans.
Yes, indeed, story-wise, I have trouble to identify her green side to the point she'd be made an UG character.
If she were monoBlue she would want to make the ultimate sea monster. Instead she believes that true perfection already exists (Green) and is driven to discover it (Blue). Kiora also does not make or alter things or have any sort of intellectual passion. In terms of personality she embodies Green's conservative view of things as well as its preference for direct, even brutal, solutions to problems. She has Blue's love of trickery but note that her tricks are very simple rather than being sophisticated plans.
It appeared to me that bio-engineering was actually UG, not pure U. U is the color of science and research, true, but also of seas and winds and the creatures that inhabits them.
Yes, indeed, story-wise, I have trouble to identify her green side to the point she'd be made an UG character.
If she were monoBlue she would want to make the ultimate sea monster. Instead she believes that true perfection already exists (Green) and is driven to discover it (Blue). Kiora also does not make or alter things or have any sort of intellectual passion. In terms of personality she embodies Green's conservative view of things as well as its preference for direct, even brutal, solutions to problems. She has Blue's love of trickery but note that her tricks are very simple rather than being sophisticated plans.
It appeared to me that bio-engineering was actually UG, not pure U. U is the color of science and research, true, but also of seas and winds and the creatures that inhabits them.
Creating entirely new creatures is quite Blue. UG mad science, as epitomized by the Simic, adapts from nature rather than trying to supplant it. In contrast the stichers of Innistrad are monoblue because they want to overturn the natural order with their creations.
It's a bit of a fuzzy line actually. You could have bio-engineers be both UG and U, as blue is all about perfection and improving things. So a character who engineers life to being better can be mono-U.
This is also the reason why the simic seem so... conflicted. It's a very thin line you have to tread to make the simic into truly blue and green characters. Green is about accepting what is, so the simic are basically improving upon life, but only within the confines of biology. This actually has been emphasized by the new incarnation of the simic, who rejected the bio-engineering through science of the vigean era and only fuse lifeforms through magic alone, believing that perfection already exists within the creatures that already are. It just needs to be directed, for the lack of a better word.
An argument could be made that the original simic were mono-U philosophically rather than UG, but that's splitting hairs, since some people consider the means through which you achieve your goal also important for determining your colour.
It's a bit of a fuzzy line actually. You could have bio-engineers be both UG and U, as blue is all about perfection and improving things. So a character who engineers life to being better can be mono-U.
This is also the reason why the simic seem so... conflicted. It's a very thin line you have to tread to make the simic into truly blue and green characters. Green is about accepting what is, so the simic are basically improving upon life, but only within the confines of biology. This actually has been emphasized by the new incarnation of the simic, who rejected the bio-engineering through science of the vigean era and only fuse lifeforms through magic alone, believing that perfection already exists within the creatures that already are. It just needs to be directed, for the lack of a better word.
An argument could be made that the original simic were mono-U philosophically rather than UG, but that's splitting hairs, since some people consider the means through which you achieve your goal also important for determining your colour.
rather than directed, perhaps channelled would be a more apt word to use
Yes, indeed, story-wise, I have trouble to identify her green side to the point she'd be made an UG character.
If she were monoBlue she would want to make the ultimate sea monster. Instead she believes that true perfection already exists (Green) and is driven to discover it (Blue). Kiora also does not make or alter things or have any sort of intellectual passion. In terms of personality she embodies Green's conservative view of things as well as its preference for direct, even brutal, solutions to problems. She has Blue's love of trickery but note that her tricks are very simple rather than being sophisticated plans.
It appeared to me that bio-engineering was actually UG, not pure U. U is the color of science and research, true, but also of seas and winds and the creatures that inhabits them.
There are two different expressions of UG. We've seen the Simic, which is more of the bio-engineering aside, the tinkering with nature through speeding up the evolutionary process. But there's also the flip side, the UG that's not going after Blue's quest for perfection through the Green means of nature, but Green's desire to understand and accept the ecosystem on the whole through Blue's means of intellectual study. So a field biologist, or a botanist studying a forest. Kiora feels more like the latter. She's like a late Victorian explorer going off into the Dark Heart of Africa to discover new species.
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----- "I cannot tune a harp or play a lyre, but I know how to make a small city great." - Themistocles
Kiora is in no way a mono-U character IMO. Just look at how she acted on Sea Gate once she knew Ulamog was coming. What would a mono-U character do in that situation? He would gather information, plan ahead, adapt, then try to stop the threat. Kiora, however, charges headlong into danger because she's confident she will win - basically, G's instinct over U's careful thinking.
Kiora is clever, curious, cunning, seeks to improve herself and is an overall trickster, all of which are Blue traits, but she's also strong-willed, brash, simple-minded, conservative, spiritually-driven and stubborn, all of which are Green traits. Not every UG character has to be a Simic bioengineer - instead of working with the "nature with nurture" Simic sthick, she instead goes for the simpler "U trickery and curiosity with G wild instinct" route.
As for the theory... I don't like it either, but it's possible. She still has plenty of character development to undergo, though, and if she just suffers a death by Leeroy Jenkins syndrome that wouldn't be exactly a huge impact - quite the opposite, it would be anticlimatic as hell. Her bident also is a powerful iconic artifact that would need to go somewhere if she dies, too.
Kiora really codes as Blue-Red to me, but hey. Her focus on raw force could get the Green vote.
I have also suspected that she might die, though, and having an existential breakdown when confronted with a Cthulhu further plays into that narrative. I'd rather she live, though - every group needs a wildcard, and as I hate Chandra, Kiora would be a fun way to get that.
Her magic is not "how things work" but "instinct bond magic", she said that in her UR with arixmethes. Her magic was not how does arixmethes work or how to assert my will over its own but rather i need to form a bond with him just like whatbgarruk does.
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MtG is where you can hate white players or black players, and still not be racist.
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The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
You know, I like Kiora but I really don't think that's true. She is extremely arrogant.
No, he used a spear of Heliod, not Khrusor.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Now, what we do know the Bident allows Kiora to do is create powerful destructive whirlpools. She could most likely already summon giant Octopus, but it's pretty clear from the story that the Bident helped channel power to strengthen her Octopus against the Eldrazi.
Back to the main points of this thread:
1) Having already slaughtered most of the plane isn't enough to prove how dangerous they are? I mean, I get the point here, but we're getting to the point where literally all the known survivors of the plane are heading to Sea Gate.
2) You could argue that Nissa is the exact same. Or Nahiri, for that matter.
3) Ugin isn't there either. Kiora doesn't really seem like the oath swearing type, does she?
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
For what it's worth, I always had trouble to pinpoint the green side of Kiora. She could have been made monoblue and I'd have been fine with it.
I mean, from a personality perspective I supposed being all about the strongest sea monsters makes her fairly green. But yeah, her colors are far more mechanically driven that personality driven.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I wouldn't dare discuss characters based on their gameplay mechanics in this subforum
Yes, indeed, story-wise, I have trouble to identify her green side to the point she'd be made an UG character. I think this is just a giveaway to players who requested an UG planeswalker for so long, a bit like Ral Zarek in UR.
Sea fatties have always been a thing in Blue since the days of Leviathan, Sea Serpent, Island Fish Jasconius, Polar Kraken & friends without green's help.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
If she were monoBlue she would want to make the ultimate sea monster. Instead she believes that true perfection already exists (Green) and is driven to discover it (Blue). Kiora also does not make or alter things or have any sort of intellectual passion. In terms of personality she embodies Green's conservative view of things as well as its preference for direct, even brutal, solutions to problems. She has Blue's love of trickery but note that her tricks are very simple rather than being sophisticated plans.
It appeared to me that bio-engineering was actually UG, not pure U. U is the color of science and research, true, but also of seas and winds and the creatures that inhabits them.
Creating entirely new creatures is quite Blue. UG mad science, as epitomized by the Simic, adapts from nature rather than trying to supplant it. In contrast the stichers of Innistrad are monoblue because they want to overturn the natural order with their creations.
This is also the reason why the simic seem so... conflicted. It's a very thin line you have to tread to make the simic into truly blue and green characters. Green is about accepting what is, so the simic are basically improving upon life, but only within the confines of biology. This actually has been emphasized by the new incarnation of the simic, who rejected the bio-engineering through science of the vigean era and only fuse lifeforms through magic alone, believing that perfection already exists within the creatures that already are. It just needs to be directed, for the lack of a better word.
An argument could be made that the original simic were mono-U philosophically rather than UG, but that's splitting hairs, since some people consider the means through which you achieve your goal also important for determining your colour.
rather than directed, perhaps channelled would be a more apt word to use
There are two different expressions of UG. We've seen the Simic, which is more of the bio-engineering aside, the tinkering with nature through speeding up the evolutionary process. But there's also the flip side, the UG that's not going after Blue's quest for perfection through the Green means of nature, but Green's desire to understand and accept the ecosystem on the whole through Blue's means of intellectual study. So a field biologist, or a botanist studying a forest. Kiora feels more like the latter. She's like a late Victorian explorer going off into the Dark Heart of Africa to discover new species.
"I cannot tune a harp or play a lyre, but I know how to make a small city great." - Themistocles
Kiora is clever, curious, cunning, seeks to improve herself and is an overall trickster, all of which are Blue traits, but she's also strong-willed, brash, simple-minded, conservative, spiritually-driven and stubborn, all of which are Green traits. Not every UG character has to be a Simic bioengineer - instead of working with the "nature with nurture" Simic sthick, she instead goes for the simpler "U trickery and curiosity with G wild instinct" route.
As for the theory... I don't like it either, but it's possible. She still has plenty of character development to undergo, though, and if she just suffers a death by Leeroy Jenkins syndrome that wouldn't be exactly a huge impact - quite the opposite, it would be anticlimatic as hell. Her bident also is a powerful iconic artifact that would need to go somewhere if she dies, too.
I have also suspected that she might die, though, and having an existential breakdown when confronted with a Cthulhu further plays into that narrative. I'd rather she live, though - every group needs a wildcard, and as I hate Chandra, Kiora would be a fun way to get that.