My guess Emrakul went to Ravnica and Kozilek went to Innistrad.
They'll probably save the biggest of the Eldrazi Titans for a set that is both popular and also most influential to many of the
current cast of planeswalkers, and I can't think of plane better than Ravnica.
Kozilek going to Innistrad would be fitting given how much Sorin is willing to sacriface to save his home
plane.
If either ate Theros I would be okay with it. In the game of chess some sacrifices are inevitable.
So much this. The same goes for Arkhos. I can't even fathom how they see Theros as the same plane but with the "real" name, when the two are obviously very different settings that just both happen to have Greek influences.
They weren't able to use Arkhos for trademark reasons that have never been elaborated on. Creative didn't make that decision.
His final statement is my point though. "Now the Multiverse has both." There's no reason we couldn't've gotten a Lethe Lake Siren card in a core set to show that while we probably won't go there, it is still its own plane and not just pre-makeover Theros.
I agree with the logic behind your point, but now with the addition of Kozilek's Herald and the total absence of Emrakul's brood, I think that they are indicating that Kozilek is still there.
I really hope they send Emrakul to Alara.
Kozileks channeler does seem to indicate that kozilek is still on zendikar but that is strange because of the way that they have hinted that ulamog was the only one left.
I'm becoming increasingly confident that Kozilek is on Zendikar. We know from the spoiled cards that Ulamog is re-imprisoned this set, so what is happening in set 2? I don't think that cleaning up Ulamog's brood has enough story to devote a whole set to. Unless the second set is on a different plane that one of the other titans is on. Another possibility is having the second set focus on Ob Nixilis.I could also see Kozilek leaving Zendikar in the next set.
I am going to switch from New Phyrexia to Innistrad as where I would like to see Kozilek go. Being Sorin's homeworld ties a lot of components together.
Based on Vestige of Emrakul, Emrakul has especially been very much MIA, so I guess it makes it easy for people to think that Em has left Zendikar. Also, Aligned Hedron Network shows that Ulamog will be re-sealed. Kozilek, meanwhile, is left in-between.
My post, however, will be a bit off-track from this thread, so excuse me.
Do you think the titans' titles would give us the slightest hints on what they are going to do?
Ulamog's first title is the Infinite Gyre, which kinds of not making sense unless we strain the definition into "infinite cycle (gyre = circular motion) of consuming", or maybe "infinite whirlpool", something like a super-evil Ouroboros from outer space (er, blind eternities). This speculation is taken from his second title, Ceaseless Hunger. Ok.
Kozilek is Butcher of Truth. Is there any mention about Kozi being the first titan to re-emerge? (well, aside from the article where he was first spoiled) I mean, if he were the first to re-emerge, it would make a little sense to call him Butcher of Truth, because he destroys the so-called 'truth' of the god Cosi. The thing is, although we have Kozilek's Inquisition, there are several other cards that show Ulamog's brood mind-raping people, so mind-rape isn't Kozi's specialty, which in turn means that mind-raping skill is not the basis of Kozilek's title.
Finally, Em is Aeons Torn. Broken time. Well, aside from her (and for some reasons we now call Em a she... really?) original ability of taking exta turn, what does that mean? Do you think they will relate her disappearance with Sarkhan's time-meddling? (I know that would be quite a feat considering that many people seem to view the current Creative team as B-class)
Frankly, I think they are both on Zendikar. Kozilek definitely, Emrakul maybe. Just not active. Wizards themselves said that Ulamog is the only ACTIVE titan on Zendikar ATM, and keep saying "the other two has not been seen", not that they left.
Frankly, I think they are both on Zendikar. Kozilek definitely, Emrakul maybe. Just not active. Wizards themselves said that Ulamog is the only ACTIVE titan on Zendikar ATM, and keep saying "the other two has not been seen", not that they left.
Frankly, I think they are both on Zendikar. Kozilek definitely, Emrakul maybe. Just not active. Wizards themselves said that Ulamog is the only ACTIVE titan on Zendikar ATM, and keep saying "the other two has not been seen", not that they left.
Frankly, I think they are both on Zendikar. Kozilek definitely, Emrakul maybe. Just not active. Wizards themselves said that Ulamog is the only ACTIVE titan on Zendikar ATM, and keep saying "the other two has not been seen", not that they left.
'Vestige' of Emrakul leads me to believes that Emrakul is gone, while Kozilek is underground.
The whole 'she' thing isn't a big deal. Things can be assigned genders without them actually having a gender.
I have said it in other thread and I will say it again here.
When Clark Ashton Smith took Lovecraft's creations and put them in mutual matrimonial, parental and other relationships, it was not taken well by fans of the Mythos. The whole point of the Great Old Ones was that they were inscrutable, incomprehensible, mysterious, not of this world. Assigning them genders makes them more mundane, and that is against the intent. Now, they did the same with the Titans.
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Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I have said it in other thread and I will say it again here.
When Clark Ashton Smith took Lovecraft's creations and put them in mutual matrimonial, parental and other relationships, it was not taken well by fans of the Mythos. The whole point of the Great Old Ones was that they were inscrutable, incomprehensible, mysterious, not of this world. Assigning them genders makes them more mundane, and that is against the intent. Now, they did the same with the Titans.
They don't have physical sex parts, the gender is just what the Zendikari, and by extension Wizards, refer to them as rather than calling them all 'it', which frankly isn't that all intimidating either. It's just an extension of the genders they were known as when they were still gods. Plus, this argument is about six years old now, I get why you don't like it, but it's long since been done.
Much agreed. It's less believable if characters know more than they'd be capable of given their perspective, beliefs, and capacity of grasping broader concepts. It's almost like how odd it would be to the rest of us if somebody claims to know exactly what's going on in the fifth dimension.
I have said it in other thread and I will say it again here.
When Clark Ashton Smith took Lovecraft's creations and put them in mutual matrimonial, parental and other relationships, it was not taken well by fans of the Mythos. The whole point of the Great Old Ones was that they were inscrutable, incomprehensible, mysterious, not of this world. Assigning them genders makes them more mundane, and that is against the intent. Now, they did the same with the Titans.
They don't have physical sex parts, the gender is just what the Zendikari, and by extension Wizards, refer to them as rather than calling them all 'it', which frankly isn't that all intimidating either. It's just an extension of the genders they were known as when they were still gods. Plus, this argument is about six years old now, I get why you don't like it, but it's long since been done.
What exactly is six years old? Be so kind and don't mix how the Zendikari see them (as the gods) and how they are presented to us. It is wholly understandable when presented from the Zendikari viewpoint. And if the flavortext of Vestige of Emrakul was a quote from a Zendikari denizen, I would accept it.
Now, they essentially forced the Zendikari viewpoint on us, instead of letting us be spectators. I get your reasoning, but don't mix apples and oranges.
Much agreed. It's less believable if characters know more than they'd be capable of given their perspective, beliefs, and capacity of grasping broader concepts. It's almost like how odd it would be to the rest of us if somebody claims to know exactly what's going on in the fifth dimension.
And this is exactly the wrong attitude, and unfortunately the one the current steps taken cater to.
The point of the Eldrazi is (was) to be unbelievable, strange, "knowing exactly what is going on in the fifth dimension Blind Eternities."
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All they've told is that this is what the Zendikari think.
I think.
I think they're trolling us. Kozi is totally still there.
Yeah, they've been careful about their wording. I also think Kozilek is still there.
Definitely after the less-ambiguous flavor text and even name of Vestige of Emrakul, Kozilek is almost definitely still there, I think. It's a pretty big tease if he isn't there or his not being there isn't a plot point in Oath of the Gatewatch I kind of expect that he'll show up in Oath of the Gatewatch and then escape to a different plane, setting up another block, maybe even the next one (though I doubt they'd do Eldrazi twice in a row-- man how could they tease Liliana making Eldrazi zombies and not do something with that!!!). I kind of like that, it's a very flowy way to connect blocks. I expected that they would just be split up, but doing it this way they can split them up while not having it seem choppy, like they were divvied up. or in other words I think it's more natural.
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They didn't care that he was the savior of Fort Keff, the great hunter of Ondu, the champion of Kabira. To them, he was just another piece of flesh, a thing with life to be drained away.
Much agreed. It's less believable if characters know more than they'd be capable of given their perspective, beliefs, and capacity of grasping broader concepts. It's almost like how odd it would be to the rest of us if somebody claims to know exactly what's going on in the fifth dimension.
And this is exactly the wrong attitude, and unfortunately the one the current steps taken cater to.
The point of the Eldrazi is (was) to be unbelievable, strange, "knowing exactly what is going on in the fifth dimension Blind Eternities."
I do believe you miss my point. Eldrazi are meant to be unbelievable and strange, as you say. But it would be less believable for the humanoids on Zendikar to be perfectly aware of that fact. Because they're so foreign to the average person, the only way such a person could even hope to comprehend any of what they are is to put it through a lens they are more familiar with. Humans alone have the tendency to project desires and motivations to non-human, even non-living entities for the sake of simply making sense of the world. It's justified for characters to ascribe gender to anything, even if it's not of any gender (and I don't think the Eldrazi particularly care about what 'gender' they are called).
Simply, Eldrazi = 5th dimension pixies. Humans = only see the 3 dimensional shadow of Eldrazi. Humans cannot see all of what Eldrazi are. Humans make assumptions and descriptions based on just the shadow of the Eldrazi.
I have said it in other thread and I will say it again here.
When Clark Ashton Smith took Lovecraft's creations and put them in mutual matrimonial, parental and other relationships, it was not taken well by fans of the Mythos. The whole point of the Great Old Ones was that they were inscrutable, incomprehensible, mysterious, not of this world. Assigning them genders makes them more mundane, and that is against the intent. Now, they did the same with the Titans.
They don't have physical sex parts, the gender is just what the Zendikari, and by extension Wizards, refer to them as rather than calling them all 'it', which frankly isn't that all intimidating either. It's just an extension of the genders they were known as when they were still gods. Plus, this argument is about six years old now, I get why you don't like it, but it's long since been done.
What exactly is six years old?
The gender thing. I can't find the first example, but Wizards employees have been referring to the titans as having gender for years. Last year, on Voice for Vorthos, Doug confirmed the she (so to be fair, let's say we've known for A year. There was even debate about it on here somewhere, if I remember). Scroll down to the first question listed: http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/search/emrakul
Be so kind and don't mix how the Zendikari see them (as the gods) and how they are presented to us. It is wholly understandable when presented from the Zendikari viewpoint. And if the flavortext of Vestige of Emrakul was a quote from a Zendikari denizen, I would accept it.
Now, they essentially forced the Zendikari viewpoint on us, instead of letting us be spectators. I get your reasoning, but don't mix apples and oranges.
Honestly, a lot of flavor text takes place from the point of view of the plane in question. When pronouns are required, they're using the Zendikari god's pronouns.
I don't want any Eldrazi anywhere near Ravnica. That would be the most tensionless story because if wizards isn't willing to destroy Zendikar, you know they won't roast Ravnica. From an intradiegetic perspective, Zendikar is a backwater and sparsely populated plane filled with savages, while Ravnica is a comparatively technologically advanced utopia with a heavily organized civilization. If the Zendikari managed to stay alive, the Ravnicans would be able to do the same with much better results...
Do you think the titans' titles would give us the slightest hints on what they are going to do?
No, I think its pretty clear now that Wizards chose the epithets mainly to sound cool.
Ulamog being called the Infinite Gyre is probably just meant to evoke Yeat's "The Second Coming":
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
The Infinite Gyre is meant to mean "Ulamog, the endless maw". MaRo said as much in his Rise of the Eldrazi podcast.
"Next is Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre! Which is a giant gaping maw that eats things I think was the metaphor we were going for." That's further corroborated with the much less intriguing title of "The Ceaseless Hunger".
Imho, I think Oath of the Gatewatch can also mean that they were able to kick Ulamog out of Zendikar and the 4 planeswalkers are keeping it that way. There has been subtle hint and underlying tone of returning the Eldrazi to the Blind Eternities here and there. I believe they will at first try to contain Ulamog but somehow fails to keep him locked up.
From an intradiegetic perspective, Zendikar is a backwater and sparsely populated plane filled with savages, while Ravnica is a comparatively technologically advanced utopiadystopia with a heavily organized civilization. If the Zendikari managed to stay alive, the Ravnicans would be able to do the same with much better results...
I'd disagree with the 'utopia' part, but otherwise I agree with you here.
I don't think it's fair to call Ravnica either. Yes, life standards could be better, but I'd bet it's still a lot safer than in most other places of the multiverse.
Pretty much why I used "comparatively." The only planes I can think of that're safer to live in than Ravnica, while also having as high a standard of living is Kaladesh or Fiora.
They'll probably save the biggest of the Eldrazi Titans for a set that is both popular and also most influential to many of the
current cast of planeswalkers, and I can't think of plane better than Ravnica.
Kozilek going to Innistrad would be fitting given how much Sorin is willing to sacriface to save his home
plane.
If either ate Theros I would be okay with it. In the game of chess some sacrifices are inevitable.
His final statement is my point though. "Now the Multiverse has both." There's no reason we couldn't've gotten a Lethe Lake Siren card in a core set to show that while we probably won't go there, it is still its own plane and not just pre-makeover Theros.
Commander Decks
WDarien, King of KjeldorW - WYomiji, Who Bars the WayW - UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
BPhage the UntouchableB - BShirei,
Shadowborn Ap-Shizo's CaretakerB - RZirilan of the ClawR(W/U)Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper(W/U) - (2/G)Phelddagrif Politics(W/U) - (U/B)Mishra, Artificer Prodigy(U/R) - Karona, God of Voltron
Kozileks channeler does seem to indicate that kozilek is still on zendikar but that is strange because of the way that they have hinted that ulamog was the only one left.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I think.
I think they're trolling us. Kozi is totally still there.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I am going to switch from New Phyrexia to Innistrad as where I would like to see Kozilek go. Being Sorin's homeworld ties a lot of components together.
My post, however, will be a bit off-track from this thread, so excuse me.
Do you think the titans' titles would give us the slightest hints on what they are going to do?
Ulamog's first title is the Infinite Gyre, which kinds of not making sense unless we strain the definition into "infinite cycle (gyre = circular motion) of consuming", or maybe "infinite whirlpool", something like a super-evil Ouroboros from outer space (er, blind eternities). This speculation is taken from his second title, Ceaseless Hunger. Ok.
Kozilek is Butcher of Truth. Is there any mention about Kozi being the first titan to re-emerge? (well, aside from the article where he was first spoiled) I mean, if he were the first to re-emerge, it would make a little sense to call him Butcher of Truth, because he destroys the so-called 'truth' of the god Cosi. The thing is, although we have Kozilek's Inquisition, there are several other cards that show Ulamog's brood mind-raping people, so mind-rape isn't Kozi's specialty, which in turn means that mind-raping skill is not the basis of Kozilek's title.
Finally, Em is Aeons Torn. Broken time. Well, aside from her (and for some reasons we now call Em a she... really?) original ability of taking exta turn, what does that mean? Do you think they will relate her disappearance with Sarkhan's time-meddling? (I know that would be quite a feat considering that many people seem to view the current Creative team as B-class)
Yeah. A stupid thing from Wizards.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
The whole 'she' thing isn't a big deal. Things can be assigned genders without them actually having a gender.
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Yeah, they've been careful about their wording. I also think Kozilek is still there.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Don't say that to anyone who likes Ashiok
I have said it in other thread and I will say it again here.
When Clark Ashton Smith took Lovecraft's creations and put them in mutual matrimonial, parental and other relationships, it was not taken well by fans of the Mythos. The whole point of the Great Old Ones was that they were inscrutable, incomprehensible, mysterious, not of this world. Assigning them genders makes them more mundane, and that is against the intent. Now, they did the same with the Titans.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
What exactly is six years old? Be so kind and don't mix how the Zendikari see them (as the gods) and how they are presented to us. It is wholly understandable when presented from the Zendikari viewpoint. And if the flavortext of Vestige of Emrakul was a quote from a Zendikari denizen, I would accept it.
Now, they essentially forced the Zendikari viewpoint on us, instead of letting us be spectators. I get your reasoning, but don't mix apples and oranges.
And this is exactly the wrong attitude, and unfortunately the one the current steps taken cater to.
The point of the Eldrazi is (was) to be unbelievable, strange, "knowing exactly what is going on in the
fifth dimensionBlind Eternities."Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Definitely after the less-ambiguous flavor text and even name of Vestige of Emrakul, Kozilek is almost definitely still there, I think. It's a pretty big tease if he isn't there or his not being there isn't a plot point in Oath of the Gatewatch I kind of expect that he'll show up in Oath of the Gatewatch and then escape to a different plane, setting up another block, maybe even the next one (though I doubt they'd do Eldrazi twice in a row-- man how could they tease Liliana making Eldrazi zombies and not do something with that!!!). I kind of like that, it's a very flowy way to connect blocks. I expected that they would just be split up, but doing it this way they can split them up while not having it seem choppy, like they were divvied up. or in other words I think it's more natural.
But the people behind the barrier knew.
I do believe you miss my point. Eldrazi are meant to be unbelievable and strange, as you say. But it would be less believable for the humanoids on Zendikar to be perfectly aware of that fact. Because they're so foreign to the average person, the only way such a person could even hope to comprehend any of what they are is to put it through a lens they are more familiar with. Humans alone have the tendency to project desires and motivations to non-human, even non-living entities for the sake of simply making sense of the world. It's justified for characters to ascribe gender to anything, even if it's not of any gender (and I don't think the Eldrazi particularly care about what 'gender' they are called).
Simply, Eldrazi = 5th dimension pixies. Humans = only see the 3 dimensional shadow of Eldrazi. Humans cannot see all of what Eldrazi are. Humans make assumptions and descriptions based on just the shadow of the Eldrazi.
Honestly, a lot of flavor text takes place from the point of view of the plane in question. When pronouns are required, they're using the Zendikari god's pronouns.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Emeria, the god based on Emrakul, is a she. The Eldrazi, all of them, officially have no gender.
Your mods are terrified of me.
No, I think its pretty clear now that Wizards chose the epithets mainly to sound cool.
Ulamog being called the Infinite Gyre is probably just meant to evoke Yeat's "The Second Coming":
"Next is Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre! Which is a giant gaping maw that eats things I think was the metaphor we were going for." That's further corroborated with the much less intriguing title of "The Ceaseless Hunger".
Your mods are terrified of me.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Your mods are terrified of me.