*puts on tinfoil hat* when are we told that heliod kills elspeth for that reason? I thought it was because she killed a god and because she was kinda the reason he ascended in the first place.
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*****, gideon's teacher's teacher was killed by piromancy, and if he is dead, he can't be helios... Gideon's teacher's teacher created heliod,and heliod killed him with white aligned fire.
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My guess is that ravnica and innistrad will be ones, considering they are the primary planes shown in the trailer...
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Okay, I am going off on a limb here... We know Gideon is from Theros. We know his teacher's teacher was a planeswalker. In the Purifying fire, we find out that the leader of the Heliud's teachers was also a planeswalker. We also know that the Heliud is on multiple planes, because the Heliud killed chandra's parents and her town, as well as Heliod's name. Thus, the heliud must have been spread across worlds by a planes walker. Next: the heliud is based on heiromancy, or holy justice. HOLY. you know who was holy? Heliod. I think Heliod was a theros born planeswalker, who spread the heliud across planes as well as named it after him, and he underwent a similar process as Xenagos to become a god. If enough people believe in you, you will become a god. He had so much influence throughout the multiverse, that when he returned to theros, he became a god.
*puts on tinfoil hat*
There's also a statue of Heliod in the background of the scene with Gideon and his teacher in the Duels game, so maybe the hieromancy Gideon is learning really is Heliod's magic. Heliod also has fire powers and hates planeswalkers, and the Order of Heliud uses the Purifying Fire that can remove a planeswalker's spark. And Gideon's teacher's mentor was a planeswalker killed by fire... Too many coincidences...
*removes tinfoil hat*
However, Heliod killed Elspeth because she has seen things he couldn't fathom, so it's unlikely he is a planeswalker too.
*puts on tinfoil hat*
Though, now that I think of it, I don't remember where Heliod learned about Elspeth and Xenagos being planeswalkers... Was it mentioned in the novels?
As far as I remember, Heliod makes assumptions about it. It's certain that Phenax learned that the two were planeswalkers as a result of the oracle Elspeth talks to, but it's highly unlikely that the God of Deception would run up to Heliod to tell the truth about them. Of course, it would also sow a bit of panic in the pantheon, but...
In any case, Heliod made an assumption that Elspeth was not exactly Theran because she is able to shield herself from his spear through protective magic he hadn't seen. In any case, knowing that Elspeth not only could kill a god, but was also immune to his attempt on her life with relative ease, definitely made him paranoid of her, and he likely assumed she had seen things he hadn't. I don't think he ever specifically calls them planeswalkers, either.
As for the idea of Gideon's mentor becoming Heliod.....I will say that the splash art of Young Gideon does show him wielding a Spear of Light that looks very much so like Heliod's spear. Extremely so, actually. At the same time, I also am in the camp that Gideon killed the old Gruul God, just like Elspeth did to Xenagos, when the novel refers to his spark occurring after he killed an enemy much stronger than he was. I don't think just killing a hydra or giant on Theros is enough to make you feel that shocked you won. Definitely feels like it could be a story point that Gideon killed the old RG god.
Just b/c Magic appears to love cycles doesn't mean there actually was a RG Theran god before Xenagos. After all Abandon can mean a state of being. I highly doubt Heliod was seriously aware of PW before Elspeth.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I've actually wondered who/if there was a RG god before Xenagos. Did gods just coincidentally spawn 1 of each 2 color and mono color combination? I assume it's not really something they explained and just sort of ignored it. Will another god replace Xenagos or will they just have a conspicuous hole in the pantheon? The whole thing seems so contrived thinking about it now. I guess it wasn't supposed to be thought about that deeply.
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They didn't care that he was the savior of Fort Keff, the great hunter of Ondu, the champion of Kabira. To them, he was just another piece of flesh, a thing with life to be drained away.
Just b/c Magic appears to love cycles doesn't mean there actually was a RG Theran god before Xenagos. After all Abandon can mean a state of being. I highly doubt Heliod was seriously aware of PW before Elspeth.
I agree that there's nothing that says there was an RG God before Xenagos. However, we do know from Kruphix that all the current gods aren't the original gods. We also know there used to specifically be a God of Love, but apparently that god disappeared. I'm not in any side when it comes to if Heliod was or knew about planeswalkers, but I still feel Gideon slew the old RG god. In any case, with red being about passion and green being about growth, love could fit inside of the RG spectrum, and Abandon could also fit as Abandon towards the normal civility of the polis rather than the impulse of love. In any case, we don't know what hints are in the Theros block about Gideon. I never expected the Kytheon Iora stuff to relate to him, in any case.
So the idea Gideon killed the old red/green gods is didn't happen because the last red/green god was forgot by mortals long before the currtant storyline. Plus what would be the point? So Gideon and Elsepths story mesh together even more? To esablish that the red/green gods seem to be picked off by white planeswalkers?
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Right...I had forgotten about that Doug post. In any case, a Greek philosopher created the idea of history repeating itself, which is why I imagined the idea of two White planeswalkers offing the RG gods. In any case, at this point it's all speculation.
Getting on topic about worlds again, just so I can contribute to the main point of this thread, it's obvious we visit Theros, Alara, and Zendikar based on confirmed things for Gideon and Nissa. I'm fairly certain we'll see Innistrad through Liliana and Ravnica through Chandra (so she can pick up her important gear, which was Ravnican in nature). Past that....who knows. None of the other worlds make any sense for any of the walkers. Shandalar will be in there, presumably, but past that, the rest of the worlds just don't fit. Llorwyn is a definite no, Mirrodin doesn't make sense (plus it may confuse people that Phyrexia is gone, since Garruk not being cursed in the following coresets after Innistrad confused people just the same), Tarkir...maybe for Nissa. Maybe. Highly doubtful. Even still, it seems likely they'll have to make at least 4 new planes for this set, and since we all know how it went down with Ral and Kiora after they were put in a product but not truly in the game, people will be begging to go to the actual planes for a two-block set for as long until they happen.
Well we do know Chandra is from a new plane for sure and I agree Ravnica is a good bet for Chandra.
I'm guessing Liliana first planeswalker trip be to the plane where the thrid demon master she is going ater is from, since it could set the stage for Lilianas next storyline.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
In any case, with red being about passion and green being about growth, love could fit inside of the RG spectrum
Considering red is the colour of emotion and green only follows reproduction on an instinctual basis, I feel like love is not really red-green, but more mono-red. But that's probably just a matter of opinion.
I really don't want to be THAT guy, but after the recent incidents, I'm not sure how much we should consider the word of god as canon, or at least as unquestionable truth.
If having Gideon slay the red-green god makes for a cool story (and I think it does) then Wizards will happily retcon this fact. Plus, it's not even a true retcon, because the whereabouts of the "previous" red-green god were never touched on inlore, only in OOC information.
Well yeah except he works for the Holy justice nazis on regatha
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Seeing Lili be from Dominaria should be pretty exciting. Now the Question is what part of it she's from. Urborg seems to obvious, especially considering she started off as a healer.
and she leaped to Innistrad, which should make things evenmore interesting.
also, wasn't Regatha one of the Planechase planes?
Gideon is from Theros, went to Bant/Alara.
Jace is from Vyrn, went to Ravnica.
Liliana is from Dominaria, went to Innistrad.
Chandra is from Kaladesh, went to Regatha.
Nissa is from Zendikar, went to Lorwyn.
(List from latest uncharted realms.)
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"There is no greater folly than standing against me."
"No fact escapes me. Why do you think you can?"
"Where will you run when I punish you with the very ground you flee on?"
"You will fully understand fear when you discover it is the final thing you put your faith in."
"Your pathetic ideas lie in shambles, Planeswalker. Where is your arrogant pride now?"
"Do the innocent pay for the crimes of the guilty? Of course they do. That's the fate of the weak."
"Power is wasted on the weak. They never keep it for long."
"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
—Nicol Bolas
He was. Trust Me. I will bet you that the Heliud worships heliod, and it was spread from theros to other plans by a Heliod worshipping planes walker. Heliod would know of this.
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Ha. Between Jace being the Audience Surrogate, and those tantalizing Mage-Rings, I smell Vryn being the setting of one of the two blocks after Battle for Zendikar. Whether Jace will be present himself for that block...that might be a different story.
Bant is not a plane. Bant exists as a part of Alara.
Worth Nothing.
EDIT: Response to many posters leading speculatuion from Gideon's first 'walk. Yes, he may have spent time and become his 'true' self (as we know him) with the Bant, but we then can only confirm a stint in Alara, lest to be seen in any sort of Bant influence in the set itself...
Bant is not a plane. Bant exists as a part of Alara.
Worth Nothing.
EDIT: Response to many posters leading speculatuion from Gideon's first 'walk. Yes, he may have spent time and become his 'true' self (as we know him) with the Bant, but we then can only confirm a stint in Alara, lest to be seen in any sort of Bant influence in the set itself...
A bit of clarity, the time when Gideon would have been there Bant would have been a stand alone plane not part of Alara as that happened rather recently.
Very possible I'm wrong, but I thought it was mentioned that Nissa's first walk was to Ravnica? I know she visited there (and hated it of course).
And doesn't Jace have some connection to Iquanta? (I think that was supposed to be were he lost his memory). It might not have been his home or his first walk, but I thought it was important.
"In The Teeth of Akoum"
Nissa had, in fact, only visited a handful [of planes]. One had been a staggering metropolis of beings standing virtually cheek to cheek amid towering buildings. She had walked the street for about an hour and in that time it had seemed that the amount of people grew and the height of the buildings lengthened. There was nothing green that she could see. She had left soon after.
------------
The point of quoting that blurb is to say that Ravnica was one of her few forays outside of Zendikar, but not her first.
Bant is not a plane. Bant exists as a part of Alara.
Worth Nothing.
EDIT: Response to many posters leading speculatuion from Gideon's first 'walk. Yes, he may have spent time and become his 'true' self (as we know him) with the Bant, but we then can only confirm a stint in Alara, lest to be seen in any sort of Bant influence in the set itself...
Sure, but at the time Gideon would have visited it would not be whole yet, and thus would have effectively been it's own plane for the purposes of planeswalking.
Thus far Gideon seems to be an exercise in making someone as noble and just as possible, complete with tragic backstory (dead girlfriend, even) driving him towards redemption. *yawn*
In a world where every planeswalker is some snot-nosed scheming upstart/some upstart with reckless abandon (the only exceptions being Bolas, Sorin, Ajani, Ugin and Garruk) that goes around ruining planar natives' lives, it's great that we have at least one Walker that's rational, objectively good, heroic and noble. If they darken Gideon's character at all I'm done with this Creative Team. Gideon is a much-needed breath of fresh air in this cynical story. Hell, if it were up to me I'd make him being the paragon of decency a lot more on the nose.
And it's not like he has no nuance. Read Purifying Fire and see just how much of a cool guy he is. If flaws are what you're looking for and not Gideon becoming a mopey broody antihero, he has the very obvious flaw of being a martyr. He throws himself into danger the moment he sees someone that needs help.
I'm generally in agreement on this, although I'd like to note that Nahiri has been great from that perspective as well, and I'm really afraid that they're going to ruin her when they bring her back.
not sure if this is the place but can I just say that while I love djinn and drakes, if origins doesn't start showing some new illusions I am going to be massively disappointed?
I mean this is jace's origin story he uses illusions there has got to be new illusions here surely?
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As far as I remember, Heliod makes assumptions about it. It's certain that Phenax learned that the two were planeswalkers as a result of the oracle Elspeth talks to, but it's highly unlikely that the God of Deception would run up to Heliod to tell the truth about them. Of course, it would also sow a bit of panic in the pantheon, but...
In any case, Heliod made an assumption that Elspeth was not exactly Theran because she is able to shield herself from his spear through protective magic he hadn't seen. In any case, knowing that Elspeth not only could kill a god, but was also immune to his attempt on her life with relative ease, definitely made him paranoid of her, and he likely assumed she had seen things he hadn't. I don't think he ever specifically calls them planeswalkers, either.
As for the idea of Gideon's mentor becoming Heliod.....I will say that the splash art of Young Gideon does show him wielding a Spear of Light that looks very much so like Heliod's spear. Extremely so, actually. At the same time, I also am in the camp that Gideon killed the old Gruul God, just like Elspeth did to Xenagos, when the novel refers to his spark occurring after he killed an enemy much stronger than he was. I don't think just killing a hydra or giant on Theros is enough to make you feel that shocked you won. Definitely feels like it could be a story point that Gideon killed the old RG god.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
But the people behind the barrier knew.
I agree that there's nothing that says there was an RG God before Xenagos. However, we do know from Kruphix that all the current gods aren't the original gods. We also know there used to specifically be a God of Love, but apparently that god disappeared. I'm not in any side when it comes to if Heliod was or knew about planeswalkers, but I still feel Gideon slew the old RG god. In any case, with red being about passion and green being about growth, love could fit inside of the RG spectrum, and Abandon could also fit as Abandon towards the normal civility of the polis rather than the impulse of love. In any case, we don't know what hints are in the Theros block about Gideon. I never expected the Kytheon Iora stuff to relate to him, in any case.
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/73488442600/was-there-a-rg-god-before-xenagos-ascension-if
So the idea Gideon killed the old red/green gods is didn't happen because the last red/green god was forgot by mortals long before the currtant storyline. Plus what would be the point? So Gideon and Elsepths story mesh together even more? To esablish that the red/green gods seem to be picked off by white planeswalkers?
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Getting on topic about worlds again, just so I can contribute to the main point of this thread, it's obvious we visit Theros, Alara, and Zendikar based on confirmed things for Gideon and Nissa. I'm fairly certain we'll see Innistrad through Liliana and Ravnica through Chandra (so she can pick up her important gear, which was Ravnican in nature). Past that....who knows. None of the other worlds make any sense for any of the walkers. Shandalar will be in there, presumably, but past that, the rest of the worlds just don't fit. Llorwyn is a definite no, Mirrodin doesn't make sense (plus it may confuse people that Phyrexia is gone, since Garruk not being cursed in the following coresets after Innistrad confused people just the same), Tarkir...maybe for Nissa. Maybe. Highly doubtful. Even still, it seems likely they'll have to make at least 4 new planes for this set, and since we all know how it went down with Ral and Kiora after they were put in a product but not truly in the game, people will be begging to go to the actual planes for a two-block set for as long until they happen.
I'm guessing Liliana first planeswalker trip be to the plane where the thrid demon master she is going ater is from, since it could set the stage for Lilianas next storyline.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Considering red is the colour of emotion and green only follows reproduction on an instinctual basis, I feel like love is not really red-green, but more mono-red. But that's probably just a matter of opinion.
I really don't want to be THAT guy, but after the recent incidents, I'm not sure how much we should consider the word of god as canon, or at least as unquestionable truth.
If having Gideon slay the red-green god makes for a cool story (and I think it does) then Wizards will happily retcon this fact. Plus, it's not even a true retcon, because the whereabouts of the "previous" red-green god were never touched on inlore, only in OOC information.
BKalitas ZombiesB
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WUBRGScion of the Mirrorwing DragonWUBRG
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WUEphara, God of the PolisWU
Seeing Lili be from Dominaria should be pretty exciting. Now the Question is what part of it she's from. Urborg seems to obvious, especially considering she started off as a healer.
and she leaped to Innistrad, which should make things evenmore interesting.
also, wasn't Regatha one of the Planechase planes?
Click the pic for more info.
Jace is from Vyrn, went to Ravnica.
Liliana is from Dominaria, went to Innistrad.
Chandra is from Kaladesh, went to Regatha.
Nissa is from Zendikar, went to Lorwyn.
(List from latest uncharted realms.)
"No fact escapes me. Why do you think you can?"
"Where will you run when I punish you with the very ground you flee on?"
"You will fully understand fear when you discover it is the final thing you put your faith in."
"Your pathetic ideas lie in shambles, Planeswalker. Where is your arrogant pride now?"
"Do the innocent pay for the crimes of the guilty? Of course they do. That's the fate of the weak."
"Power is wasted on the weak. They never keep it for long."
"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
—Nicol Bolas
BKalitas ZombiesB
BGonti FunB
WUBRGScion of the Mirrorwing DragonWUBRG
UGPrime Speaker ZeganaUG
URArjun, the Shifting FlameUR
RGRosheeen MeandererRG
WUEphara, God of the PolisWU
Worth Nothing.
EDIT: Response to many posters leading speculatuion from Gideon's first 'walk. Yes, he may have spent time and become his 'true' self (as we know him) with the Bant, but we then can only confirm a stint in Alara, lest to be seen in any sort of Bant influence in the set itself...
A bit of clarity, the time when Gideon would have been there Bant would have been a stand alone plane not part of Alara as that happened rather recently.
"In The Teeth of Akoum"
Nissa had, in fact, only visited a handful [of planes]. One had been a staggering metropolis of beings standing virtually cheek to cheek amid towering buildings. She had walked the street for about an hour and in that time it had seemed that the amount of people grew and the height of the buildings lengthened. There was nothing green that she could see. She had left soon after.
------------
The point of quoting that blurb is to say that Ravnica was one of her few forays outside of Zendikar, but not her first.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Sure, but at the time Gideon would have visited it would not be whole yet, and thus would have effectively been it's own plane for the purposes of planeswalking.
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In a world where every planeswalker is some snot-nosed scheming upstart/some upstart with reckless abandon (the only exceptions being Bolas, Sorin, Ajani, Ugin and Garruk) that goes around ruining planar natives' lives, it's great that we have at least one Walker that's rational, objectively good, heroic and noble. If they darken Gideon's character at all I'm done with this Creative Team. Gideon is a much-needed breath of fresh air in this cynical story. Hell, if it were up to me I'd make him being the paragon of decency a lot more on the nose.
And it's not like he has no nuance. Read Purifying Fire and see just how much of a cool guy he is. If flaws are what you're looking for and not Gideon becoming a mopey broody antihero, he has the very obvious flaw of being a martyr. He throws himself into danger the moment he sees someone that needs help.
Your mods are terrified of me.
I mean this is jace's origin story he uses illusions there has got to be new illusions here surely?
BKalitas ZombiesB
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