So if Sarkhan and Ugin defeat Bolas 1000 years ago what future events would that affect? What planeswalkers would be alive and which would never have their planeswalker spark? What planes would still exist? Would the Eldrazi be free? This change in storyline could greatly affect many planes and future returns to those planes, but how?
So if Sarkhan and Ugin defeat Bolas 1000 years ago what future events would that affect? What planeswalkers would be alive and which would never have their planeswalker spark? What planes would still exist? Would the Eldrazi be free? This change in storyline could greatly affect many planes and future returns to those planes, but how?
While it might be a curious exercise to consider, that isn't exactly what we're looking at here from what information we can glean from the pre-release.
It appears that Sarkhan's goal isn't to help defeat Bolas, but rather to heal Ugin following the battle to keep him from dying.
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff. - The Doctor
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While there's no actual rule against it, using random passers-by as Human tokens tends to degrade the table's structural integrity.
Fortunately, there is a linear timeline of events in the multiverse. (tried to add the link but I haven't made enough posts yet...)
So the 'current' year is roughly 4607, the year Xenagos does his thing on Theros, which means that many events that are considered to have changed the multiverse hasn't happened yet. So if Sarkhan goes back exactly 1000 years it'll be year 3607. No Mending (Year 4505), No Apocalypse/Phyrexian Invasion of Dominaria (Year 4205), and Before Bolas rule Madara (roughly 3750). Hell, the Apocalypse chime was rung less than 100 years earlier (3510) so we'd be way back in the middle of Urza's life-long fight against Yawgmoth.
So to answer the question, EVERYTHING MIGHT BE DIFFERENT, except the Eldrazi will still be trapped (happened 6000 years ago). Even just Bolas learning of Sarkhan's travel to the past could get the Elder Dragon thinking of all sorts of twisted little plots and schemes, regardless of the Ugin-surviving aspect. But that being said, there is also a chance nothing changes at all.
Sarkhan is saving Ugin on Tarkir...not Ugin on Zendikar. Don't worry, we still get to keep our Eldrazi. There's no reason to think that saving Ugin, and apparently letting the dragons stick around, won't create an obstacle to Ugin's leaving Tarkir to stop Nissa from freeing the Eldrazi Titans. There's no logic in everything changing. Sarkhan isn't going back to stop any of the events that you mention, and again, we have no logical basis from which to assume that healing Ugin will ripple out to impact those events.
Sarkhan is saving Ugin on Tarkir...not Ugin on Zendikar. Don't worry, we still get to keep our Eldrazi. There's no reason to think that saving Ugin, and apparently letting the dragons stick around, won't create an obstacle to Ugin's leaving Tarkir to stop Nissa from freeing the Eldrazi Titans. There's no logic in everything changing. Sarkhan isn't going back to stop any of the events that you mention, and again, we have no logical basis from which to assume that healing Ugin will ripple out to impact those events.
Except for the simple fact that Ugin was dead prior and in this new sequence... isn't. If there is something that somehow ties him to Tarkir, it would have to be pretty unavoidable, which I'm not saying can't be, but Ugin's non-appearance on Zendikar was a fairly major event for a number of characters and if there were any way for him to make that appearance...
Maintaining Ugin's nonappearance, albeit for different reasons in the new time stream, would help keep things more or less the same as they were in the Multiverse. When I typed this, I was thinking about the kind of disasters that could arise from the clans dealing with/allying with the dragons of Tarkir.
If ugin's nexus is his corpse then how did Sarkhan get back in time? One explanation is that the travel back in time might had created a retcon heavy alternate universe.
They'll probably keep the timeline changes local to Tarkir because it gets too crazy otherwise. I don't think they intended this block to effectively retcon everything in Magic history, even events on Dominaria. In all likelihood, Ugin is healed and manages to keep that fact hidden from Bolas (who probably has spies everywhere), such that everything outside of Tarkir takes place as it would otherwise.
There is so much obscurity around the roles of Ugin and Nicol Bolas and the interaction/control of Sarkhan - is there any chance that this is a big plot twist and we discover here that Ugin is not the hero he is made out to be? I feel like Sarkhan's head voices have been left unnecessarily vague. I'm not saying Bolas is a hero either, but after reading as much as I can get my hands on, I feel like there is room for an interesting plot twist where we discover that Ugin is actually evil and attempting to undo the mending and harness the power of the Eldrazi for himself. Not saying he succeeds here, but its been on my mind. Bolas strikes me as the type of opportunistic "Bad Guy" and have been privy to Ugin's plans, and has been acting to stop him. Do we have hard information regarding Ugin's intentions?
Not to go off topic, but is there any possibility that Ugin created Phyrexia?
THanks for the clarification, I felt that the wording was vague enough - IE he is a "Spirit Dragon" hence could could be "dead". I wish I had better storyline sources than just wikis.
Who said Nicol Bolas is going to get defeated?
It appears that the next set is about Ugin's survival (also keeping ungin alive better not despark Sarkhan [no confirmation of whether that is ugin's spark yet])
They'll probably keep the timeline changes local to Tarkir because it gets too crazy otherwise. I don't think they intended this block to effectively retcon everything in Magic history, even events on Dominaria. In all likelihood, Ugin is healed and manages to keep that fact hidden from Bolas (who probably has spies everywhere), such that everything outside of Tarkir takes place as it would otherwise.
How exactly is he going to keep the fact that he's alive hidden from Bolas when Bolas is on Tarkir with him?
A possibility is that he won't actually be alive. Bolas defeats him in the same way but instead of dying for good Ugin keeps a small fraction of his existence intact and heal himself during those 1.000 years. Dragons of Tarkir passes on KTK's time after Ugin "revives" and bring backs the elemental storms and the dragons.
This way we have a time travel story, no paradox because Sarkhan's travel to the past allows him to change the future (FATE reforged) instead of rewriting the past. There's also no need to paradox solving mechanism such as reference to alternative timelines. This is also a relatively unused approach to time travel...
In his time travel Sarkhan is unable to interact with anything on Tarkir, he pretty much just observes the past running. Except for Ugin by which is somehow influenced by Sarkhan's future ghost.
I like the idea of Ugin actually being a villain. But it probably won't happen, since that would mean we get 2 overpowered dragons as villains, instead of 1.
As for the time travel aspects, I think wizards will just go to the changed Tarkir, while in other places no changes will occur.
Is it possible that Sarkhan somehow brings Ugin back to the present with him? Bolas beats up Ugin, Ugin is dying, Sarkhan arrives from the future and brings Ugin back to the present with him to recover. This way Ugin wouldn't have any way to impact the events between his fight with Blas and the current present, but he is still able to participate in the Eldrazi confrontation that we all know is coming soon. Italofoca's idea (that Sarkhan helps Ugin to barely survive but he takes 1000 years to recover), would have pretty much the same effect. Either way, I am fairly confident the the results will be Tarkir-specific up to the present, but result in Ugin being capable of participating in current events. (My belief since the we found out about Tarkir/Ugin/time travel/Sorin being here is that the whole block was intended to bring in an important character for the Eldrazi storyline).
Is it possible that Sarkhan somehow brings Ugin back to the present with him? Bolas beats up Ugin, Ugin is dying, Sarkhan arrives from the future and brings Ugin back to the present with him to recover. This way Ugin wouldn't have any way to impact the events between his fight with Blas and the current present, but he is still able to participate in the Eldrazi confrontation that we all know is coming soon. Italofoca's idea (that Sarkhan helps Ugin to barely survive but he takes 1000 years to recover), would have pretty much the same effect. Either way, I am fairly confident the the results will be Tarkir-specific up to the present, but result in Ugin being capable of participating in current events. (My belief since the we found out about Tarkir/Ugin/time travel/Sorin being here is that the whole block was intended to bring in an important character for the Eldrazi storyline).
My thought is that it is either this, or they change EVERYTHING, because if they change everything, then they can re-return to places like ravnica, and do all kinds of new stuff with the guilds, they'll basically be able to rewrite how the guilds work and give some colors/guilds stuff they wouldn't normally get.
Is it possible that Sarkhan somehow brings Ugin back to the present with him? Bolas beats up Ugin, Ugin is dying, Sarkhan arrives from the future and brings Ugin back to the present with him to recover. This way Ugin wouldn't have any way to impact the events between his fight with Blas and the current present, but he is still able to participate in the Eldrazi confrontation that we all know is coming soon. Italofoca's idea (that Sarkhan helps Ugin to barely survive but he takes 1000 years to recover), would have pretty much the same effect. Either way, I am fairly confident the the results will be Tarkir-specific up to the present, but result in Ugin being capable of participating in current events. (My belief since the we found out about Tarkir/Ugin/time travel/Sorin being here is that the whole block was intended to bring in an important character for the Eldrazi storyline).
My thought is that it is either this, or they change EVERYTHING, because if they change everything, then they can re-return to places like ravnica, and do all kinds of new stuff with the guilds, they'll basically be able to rewrite how the guilds work and give some colors/guilds stuff they wouldn't normally get.
But isn't the color combinations what defines the guilds and give them their motivation? I don't mind color shifts, mostly because I spent a lot of time playing in Time Spiral and consider it my 2nd favorite block now that Khans is out. I just don't see where it makes sense in Ravnica unless we see basically make 10 new guilds. Now maybe alternate version of ravnica without the creation of the guilds therefore Jace would probably try to re-establish the guildpact.
Well if they do go back and change stuff they'll technically be able to redo most of the sets and then it wouldn't be re-return to ravnica. If they wanted, they can make khans not change much but then bolas finds out and then HE goes back in time somehow and changes EVERYTHING. What i really want to know is how sarkhan goes back in the first place.
It appears that Sarkhan's goal isn't to help defeat Bolas, but rather to heal Ugin following the battle to keep him from dying.
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So the 'current' year is roughly 4607, the year Xenagos does his thing on Theros, which means that many events that are considered to have changed the multiverse hasn't happened yet. So if Sarkhan goes back exactly 1000 years it'll be year 3607. No Mending (Year 4505), No Apocalypse/Phyrexian Invasion of Dominaria (Year 4205), and Before Bolas rule Madara (roughly 3750). Hell, the Apocalypse chime was rung less than 100 years earlier (3510) so we'd be way back in the middle of Urza's life-long fight against Yawgmoth.
So to answer the question, EVERYTHING MIGHT BE DIFFERENT, except the Eldrazi will still be trapped (happened 6000 years ago). Even just Bolas learning of Sarkhan's travel to the past could get the Elder Dragon thinking of all sorts of twisted little plots and schemes, regardless of the Ugin-surviving aspect. But that being said, there is also a chance nothing changes at all.
Thank you for that
Except for the simple fact that Ugin was dead prior and in this new sequence... isn't. If there is something that somehow ties him to Tarkir, it would have to be pretty unavoidable, which I'm not saying can't be, but Ugin's non-appearance on Zendikar was a fairly major event for a number of characters and if there were any way for him to make that appearance...
Not to go off topic, but is there any possibility that Ugin created Phyrexia?
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It appears that the next set is about Ugin's survival (also keeping ungin alive better not despark Sarkhan [no confirmation of whether that is ugin's spark yet])
How exactly is he going to keep the fact that he's alive hidden from Bolas when Bolas is on Tarkir with him?
This way we have a time travel story, no paradox because Sarkhan's travel to the past allows him to change the future (FATE reforged) instead of rewriting the past. There's also no need to paradox solving mechanism such as reference to alternative timelines. This is also a relatively unused approach to time travel...
In his time travel Sarkhan is unable to interact with anything on Tarkir, he pretty much just observes the past running. Except for Ugin by which is somehow influenced by Sarkhan's future ghost.
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As for the time travel aspects, I think wizards will just go to the changed Tarkir, while in other places no changes will occur.
My thought is that it is either this, or they change EVERYTHING, because if they change everything, then they can re-return to places like ravnica, and do all kinds of new stuff with the guilds, they'll basically be able to rewrite how the guilds work and give some colors/guilds stuff they wouldn't normally get.
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But isn't the color combinations what defines the guilds and give them their motivation? I don't mind color shifts, mostly because I spent a lot of time playing in Time Spiral and consider it my 2nd favorite block now that Khans is out. I just don't see where it makes sense in Ravnica unless we see basically make 10 new guilds. Now maybe alternate version of ravnica without the creation of the guilds therefore Jace would probably try to re-establish the guildpact.
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Nah, seems too plausible. Oh, maybe Venser came along and opened an inter-dimensional-time displacement thingy...